Did my first Stainless Steel fretwire refret today (lots of pics and tech stuff)

[Kasper]

Sweet, my Squier has the same neck, and it's getting dips on some of the lower frets with the plain strings, and it rattles a bit too with even medium action. Maybe a refret or fret dressing can get this thing closer to it's potential.

 

Thanks for the time to do this.

[Mind Riot]

 

The more "give" a string has, based on having more string length past the saddle, actually makes it more difficult to perform string bends to the same pitch. It's the same concept as to why it is harder to bend to pitch on a floating trem than on a fixed bridge.

 

 

Except that "difficult" is not an absolute term but a subjective one. The more give the strings have due to more length past the saddle the further you'll have to push them off their resting point to achieve the same pitch. But if the fret top has less friction and that combines with more give in the string it can result in an easier feel.

 

Picture a one foot rope and a ten foot rope suspended between anchor points at either end, and both ropes are tensioned to fifteen pounds. Now you have to pull both ropes at their centers enough to increase the tension by two pounds. While you have to move the one foot rope much less to achieve the same increase in tension, and in fact the tensions are the same once you get there, the subjective experience is that the ten foot rope will feel a lot looser and easier to move, even if you have to move it further.

 

Of course, all of this is really subjective, but my personal anecdotal experience follows what I've said here.

[axegrinder]

I just got some more tools, so I am gonna have to give this a try. Yet another informative how-to thread. Thanks Mr. Riot.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Welcome to the SS Refretters Club MR, nice going, I gotta admit to not bothering with fret snippers at all, I use a cut off wheel to trim the ends, I pre-prepare one end, ie bevelled and de-burred and the other end I run along the face of a fine grit grinding wheel and then do minimal finish off with a file and abrasive papers. That SS wire from LMII is about the best quality German wire you can get, they're good people, they'll hand select boards for you as well.

[larryguitar]

You're doing excellent work, Mind Riot. That fretjob looks perfect!

[Mind Riot]

Thanks to everyone for the interest and comments! I'll be doing the level and dress on it before long, and I'll take some pics of that and have some more impressions on things then.

[2deaconblues]

Another refret post I've subscribed to! Great work, as always. That finish looks beautiful.

 

I've been wondering about SS frets lately, because I definitely have a heavy hand. The frets on my MIM Tele are approaching the time for care. SS may be in my future.

[Mind Riot]

Okay everybody, I finally got around to the final level and dress tonight. Sorry it took me so long to get it done.

 

I was getting some fretting out and such in a few spots after the frets were installed, so I knew I'd have to do a level and dress to get the guitar to play it's best. So tonight I threw the thing back on the jig and adjusted everything the way it needed to go (see my other threads if you need specifics, or just ask here). I then slacked the strings and pulled them to the side (no need to take them off completely and toss them; they're only a week old or so) and taped up the board and covered the body for protection.

 

 

I then used my usual long level with sandpaper attached to level the frets out.

 

 

Here's one area where I definitely noticed a big difference from regular nickel silver wire; I had to sand freaking FOREVER on this thing to remove any material. I was using gold Fre-Cut 320 grit paper, and it did cut the SS wire, but man it took a while.

 

I had been using this same paper on this leveler for my last four or five fret levels (all on NS wire) and it was still working fine. After sanding on this wire for a bit it hardly had any cut left, so I pulled it off, cleaned the level, retaped it with double stick carpet tape and put fresh 320 on there.

 

By the time I was done leveling the whole neck this paper was trashed too. I've read on Warmoth that SS wire is more difficult to install but no different to dress, and perhaps that's true if you're leveling with some sort of diamond file or diamond coated tool (or perhaps even a toothed file) but I have to say with even excellent quality metal cutting sandpaper it took a lot of effort to level these out. If I'm going to keep working with SS wire I think I'll need to keep better stocked up on sandpaper, because I'm going to be going through it a lot faster.

 

On the other side of things, I'm pleased to say that recrowning the wire was not really any different than regular NS wire for me, but I have to credit my diamond crowning file for that. I have no idea what it would be like to try to recrown SS with a delicate toothed crowning file, but I can say that even SS wire is no match for diamonds.

 

Once they were all recrowned and level, I used 320 then 400 grit sandpaper to remove the heavier scratches, then 400 and 600 grit 3M flexible polishing papers to take out some of the fine scratches, then 2400 through 12000 grit Micro Mesh to bring the frets to a ludicrously high polish.

 

 

I then pulled the tape and washed my hands (sanding and polishing like this on metal leaves my fingertips a lovely gunmetal gray color) and cleaned the board with a soft dry shop towel.

 

 

I then retightened and tuned the strings and did some setup work to get things comfortable, and we're ready to rock.

 

 

I apologize some of these pics aren't better, but my camera doesn't deal with low light very well and I usually end up working on this kind of stuff at night. I can't afford a better camera, so we'll just have to make do and I hope you'll all bear with me.

 

As far as the playability, I still stand behind my earlier comments. There does seem to me to be less resistance to bending which results in a somewhat smoother, looser feel. Particularly with this high a polish on the frets, there is virtually no drag and I have to say I do like the feel.

 

The guitar seems to have a bit more sustain now than it did before, but I can't conclusively link that to the SS wire only, for a number of reasons:

 

1) The new frets are reenforced with superglue in their slots, which means more vibration transfer due to the added rigidity and lack of air space. I have no way of knowing if they used glue at the factory, but I saw no signs of it in my fretboard prep.

 

2) The old frets had been leveled and dress about three times using various techniques over time, and the old frets were much lower than these ones. Generally, taller frets will have a bit more sustain due to less finger to fretboard contact which can draw away some sustain.

 

3) The new frets are quite large, .110" wide by .057" tall according to LMI specs, which is a much bigger wire than the medium frets that came stock. So not only is the wire much taller, but it also is wider and has greater mass, which can result in more sustain as well.

 

I haven't played it all that much yet, so I'll probably develop some more impressions that I'll be sure to share in the future.

 

I personally doubt that the difference is so great that someone would pick up the guitar and play it and say "Wow, this thing MUST have stainless steel frets!" The difference isn't that pronounced. But they do feel slick and smooth, and if they maintain the polish better than NS wire and are as tough and wear resistant as I've heard, then that's enough reason for me to use them right there. Even if they had no other benefits other than longer wear I'd probably still find that to be enough justification to give them a try.

 

Overall I wouldn't say that working with the wire was any more of a pain than working with NS wire (in my admittedly limited experience with both). As long as you have the right tools and you don't expect the wire to behave like something it's not (i.e., don't expect it to bend as easy or be as easily hammered to fit a contour like NS wire) you should be fine. It's hardness does present a few challenges, but they're nothing I would consider to be deal breakers and I consider them to be very minor bumps on the road at most.

 

In fact, there are a few things about this wire I really prefer even before you get to the good stuff about longer wear and smoother feel. For one, it's hardness means when you polish it or sand it, it's going to stay that way unless something drastic happens. I've always had a hard time getting all the tiny scratches out of NS wire, and it just seemed to me like just when I'd gotten them out I look at it wrong and there's more. With this SS stuff, I sanded it and polished it and once I did that it's going to stay the way I left it.

 

All in all, I like the stuff and I think I'll be using it again, not only on anyone who wants work done by also on my own stuff. I don't know if I'll refret any more of my guitars just for the heck of it (oh, who am I kidding? I'll probably end up doing one next week), but I'll definitely use it when the day comes that one of mine actually needs it.

 

Thanks to everybody for reading, and I hope you enjoyed all the information.

[atrox]

 

I have no idea what it would be like to try to recrown SS with a delicate toothed crowning file, but I can say that even SS wire is no match for diamonds.

 

 

My Triangle files work well for crowning SS as well. You need some really high quality sandpaper for SS though as you have found out. I usually start with my paper and move on to my diamond leveler.

 

The Squier looks great!

[theManfromAlabam]

I realize a lot of the tools and items needed you folks use for refretting are home made, such as stands, jigs and whatever...can one of you list the tools and products needed that you use for refretting and refinishing?

 

Pictures would be great as well.

[R. Chapman]

Wow..

 

Fantastic stuff MindRiot...I bet that's the best playing Squier in existence!!!

 

LOL

 

Randy

[stormin1155]

You do beautiful work, and this is a very informative thread. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us.

 

It seems like your strings will wear out quicker with SS. What is the word on that?

[roy53tele]

i really enjoyed this thread, you do amazing work, and you have inspired me to begin learning how to perform fretwork. thanks for all the great pics and info.

[atrox]

 

You do beautiful work, and this is a very informative thread. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. It seems like your strings will wear out quicker with SS. What is the word on that?

 

 

I agree with MR that the playability seems slicker on SS frets. bends and all of that. I really doubt they wear on strings more.

[Puppetyr]

It seems like your strings will wear out quicker with SS. What is the word on that?

 

This just isn't true in my experience with my Anderson. One thing I have noticed is that once the strings have been on there a long time (I'm talking months here; I use Elixirs) they develop worn depressions in the underside where they contact the frets, and these are clearly visible when you take the strings off. However, they are minor and obviously don't effect the strength of the strings - I have NEVER broken a string on my Andy, even after sets being on there for 2-4 months.

 

Once again, cool thread here Mind Riot. I really enjoy reading build/fretwork threads

[8thStreetAfterD]

Wonderful work!

 

I sent you a PM about some work I'm looking to have done later on this year.

[Mind Riot]

You do beautiful work, and this is a very informative thread. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. It seems like your strings will wear out quicker with SS. What is the word on that?

 

I'll let you know after I play it some more and all that, but I highly doubt it. The high polish on the frets should mean there is less friction between the string and fret, not more. You're not exerting a huge amount of force when you fret the string, it's not like you're crushing it down against the fret with a hammer, so I think friction would be the cause of most of the wear.

 

But I'll make sure to keep an eye on it and see how it goes.

[rparchen]

I think you did an awesome job on the fretwork and documenting it so we can see. I think I've spent the money for about 8 guitars to be setup like this in the past few years now, I'm sure I could have easily paid for the materials to do it myself by now. So I've been thinking of learning how to do this for my own guitars, where do you recommend one starting? Good books on the subject?

[leakyfaucet]

 

Picture a one foot rope and a ten foot rope suspended between anchor points at either end, and both ropes are tensioned to fifteen pounds. Now you have to pull both ropes at their centers enough to increase the tension by two pounds. While you have to move the one foot rope much less to achieve the same increase in tension, and in fact the tensions are the same once you get there, the subjective experience is that the ten foot rope will feel a lot looser and easier to move, even if you have to move it further.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're describing the effects of leverage, which isn't really what I was talking about. I was talking about the string slipping over the saddle slightly as you bend. The more string you have past the saddle, the more can slip over the saddle, which lowers the tension of the part of the string that is ringing. You are fighting a slight de-tensioning as you are bending. This is similar to the effect of bending a string on a floating tremolo.

[Mind Riot]

 

By difficult, I meant "more pressure required." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're describing the effects of leverage, which isn't really what I was talking about. I was talking about the string slipping over the saddle slightly as you bend. The more string you have past the saddle, the more can slip over the saddle, which lowers the tension of the part of the string that is ringing. You are fighting a slight de-tensioning as you are bending. This is similar to the effect of bending a string on a floating tremolo.

 

 

No, I'm just talking about mechanical give in the string which, just like rope, will increase with the added length of the overall string. Both materials will have a certain amount of flexibility and stretch to them, and that will be more pronounced the longer the string or rope is.

 

So even though you are correct that you have to push the string further off center to achieve the desired pitch when there is added string length or a tremolo, I believe the subjective experience is that the string will feel looser and easier to bend due to that added flexibility, which I was trying to illustrate with the rope example. Between pushing less distance with more resistance and pushing further with less resistance, I think the latter will provide an easier subjective feel.

[leakyfaucet]

 

No, I'm just talking about mechanical give in the string which, just like rope, will increase with the added length of the overall string. Both materials will have a certain amount of flexibility and stretch to them, and that will be more pronounced the longer the string or rope is. So even though you are correct that you have to push the string further off center to achieve the desired pitch when there is added string length or a tremolo, I believe the subjective experience is that the string will feel looser and easier to bend due to that added flexibility, which I was trying to illustrate with the rope example. Between pushing less distance with more resistance and pushing further with less resistance, I think the latter will provide an easier subjective feel.

 

 

So are you suggesting that if you had a guitar with 3 feet of string tensioned past the bridge saddle that bending strings would seem ridiculously easy compared to a similar guitar with 2 inches past the bridge saddle?

 

It won't. The reason is that if any part of the string past the saddle stretches, it lowers the pitch of the ringing part of the string. So the person would have to exert more pressure to bend to the same pitch.

[Mind Riot]

 

So are you suggesting that if you had a guitar with 3 feet of string tensioned past the bridge saddle that bending strings would seem ridiculously easy compared to a similar guitar with 2 inches past the bridge saddle? It won't. The reason is that if any part of the string past the saddle stretches, it lowers the pitch of the ringing part of the string. So the person would have to exert more pressure to bend to the same pitch.

 

 

No, a person would have to push the string further from it's resting point to achieve the same pitch in order to compensate for the give in the string beyond the saddle. This is not the same as exerting more pressure.

 

In fact, it would seem logical that the actual resistance of bending either string to the same pitch would be the same, given that the resistance could really only be realistically measured in pounds of tension.

 

Pitch is determined by mass, scale length and tension of the string, so whether the string had more length past the saddle or not both strings would have to have their tension increased by the same amount to raise the pitch by the same degree. So the 'pressure' or amount of force to raise the pitch of either string is actually the same if we remove friction from the equation.

 

Where the added string length would come into play is in the added distance the string must be pushed off center to increase the tension enough to raise the pitch to whatever was necessary. The extra elasticity would mean the string would have to be pushed further off it's resting point, but it doesn't mean it would actually take more force.

 

In terms of absolute force needed, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. In order to bend a string up from 16 pounds to 17 you'll either have to push the string further with more give to overcome the elasticity, or push it less with less give. The force is the same either way, it's the distribution of force that's different. More force over a small distance or less force over a greater one, both ending up at the same tension.

 

My opinion is that to a point, having strings with more elasticity gives a subjectively easier feel, even though the tension is actually the same, hence the rope illustration. Most people who took part in that experiment would probably say that the longer rope was looser feeling, even though the tension was the same. And it's my opinion that most people who bend a string 3/4 of a centimeter with it having more give will think it feels easier than bending a string 1/2 a centimeter with less give. It's not about absolute force, but how we subjectively interpret resistance under varying circumstances.

 

This part is just my opinion, but it seems very logical to me. If you have to push the strings ridiculously far to achieve a pitch then that's obviously not ideal, but with the small differences we're talking about here I think most people would find that having a bit more elasticity would result in a slightly easier feel even if the actual tension and force was the same from a physics point of view.

[whatever]

Would a stainless steel nut be a good idea too? Besides sounding similar to the frets. Wouldn't it also last longer?

[TaZMaNiO]

This thread really makes "pro" luthiers look like a bunch of whining conmen

 

P.S. Really nice work and great pics, thanks a TON for sharing your work and debunking those that want to destroy the reputation of SS frets

[leakyfaucet]

 

No, a person would have to push the string further from it's resting point to achieve the same pitch in order to compensate for the give in the string beyond the saddle. This is not the same as exerting more pressure. In fact, it would seem logical that the actual resistance of bending either string to the same pitch would be the same, given that the resistance could really only be realistically measured in pounds of tension. Pitch is determined by mass, scale length and tension of the string, so whether the string had more length past the saddle or not both strings would have to have their tension increased by the same amount to raise the pitch by the same degree. So the 'pressure' or amount of force to raise the pitch of either string is actually the same if we remove friction from the equation. Where the added string length would come into play is in the added distance the string must be pushed off center to increase the tension enough to raise the pitch to whatever was necessary. The extra elasticity would mean the string would have to be pushed further off it's resting point, but it doesn't mean it would actually take more force. In terms of absolute force needed, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. In order to bend a string up from 16 pounds to 17 you'll either have to push the string further with more give to overcome the elasticity, or push it less with less give. The force is the same either way, it's the distribution of force that's different. More force over a small distance or less force over a greater one, both ending up at the same tension. My opinion is that to a point, having strings with more elasticity gives a subjectively easier feel, even though the tension is actually the same, hence the rope illustration. Most people who took part in that experiment would probably say that the longer rope was looser feeling, even though the tension was the same. And it's my opinion that most people who bend a string 3/4 of a centimeter with it having more give will think it feels easier than bending a string 1/2 a centimeter with less give. It's not about absolute force, but how we subjectively interpret resistance under varying circumstances. This part is just my opinion, but it seems very logical to me. If you have to push the strings ridiculously far to achieve a pitch then that's obviously not ideal, but with the small differences we're talking about here I think most people would find that having a bit more elasticity would result in a slightly easier feel even if the actual tension and force was the same from a physics point of view.

 

 

Ahh, here I go again using the incorrect term. I don't think "force" or "tension" or "pressure" are the correct words for describing the difference between my two examples. The guitar with the 3 extra feet string past the bridge would require the same pressure as the one with 2 inches past the bridge, I agree. However, there is the distance required to move the string which is part of the equation.

 

So you have to consider pressure in addition to distance moved, as you have done. I'm sure some mechanical engineer could jump in here and give us a proper equation.

 

Similar to how torque is force over a rotational distance, this is force over a linear distance. I feel that the more you have to move a string with the same force, the more work you are exerting because you are exerting it over a longer distance. While the string may "feel" easier to move around, it is in fact more work to bend to the same pitch, since you are exerting a the same force over a longer distance.

 

At least that's how I understand it.

 

Edit: A little googling and I found the actual definition of "work," which is the product of force and distance. So then, work IS the correct term this time.