Need a new Computer....

[js1]

Sorry, I was in a hurry. I meant it doesn't have its own video chipset, and I prefer to choose my own. The benchmarks seem mixed on the graphics built into the CPU - seems to do well for video rendering but I don't quite think it's up to par in terms of graphics performance. In my experience, having a high end graphics card does tend to increase DAW performance and stability anyway. Maybe that's not so true now with the 2600, but I'm not quite ready to take that chance yet. Besides, I also use the machine for 3D design, we'll use it for our Second Life broadcasts, etc. so I don't think I can go wrong having "too much" GPU.

 

 

Fair enough. I wouldn't want to do 3D design with the built in video.

 

The GPU architecture is much different on the I2600 than the previous generation, and exceeds what my last Nvidia 8400 video card did. And is well isolated from the main processor. For a DAW only video, more than adequate. For 3D, well, no....

 

js

[Lee Flier]

 

The GPU architecture is much different on the I2600 than the previous generation, and exceeds what my last Nvidia 8400 video card did. And is well isolated from the main processor.

 

 

Yeah, so I've heard. I was just put off by the fact that it wouldn't support DirectX 11, etc... I just felt like it was still just a little too immature as a technology to want to deal with it. Glad it's working for you, though! That is good to hear.

[Richard King]

It's all on the way here. I may resell the video board and just use my monitor as usual, but, that's ok considering everything else. No problem at all. It would be fun to be able to use the 98" screen when possible, but getting cable to the projector would be a challenge. I hope all the gear fits properly in the existing box that I mentioned earlier. I suspect it will do fine.

[Richard King]

I got a bunch of stuff here today. A question for you guys (Lee?). Did you install the Core 7 chip in the board before or after installing the board in the machine? Any other little secrets that I need to know? Looks interesting and like the old case may work well for what I'm attempting. Keeping fingers crossed.

[js1]

Load up the board with the processor, processor fan, and memory before mounting it in the computer. There's no reason to wait until the board is mounted, and it's easier to put the parts in before it's mounted.

js

[Lee Flier]

I went ahead and mounted the board in the case first, because this particular case is well designed and there's plenty of room to work even once the board is installed. Some cases are pretty cramped, and it might be easier to install as much as you can before mounting it, but then you have to work around all the stuff with the screwdriver when you do mount it... so I found it easiest the other way.

 

One thing I didn't mention was that the processor didn't come with thermal grease (which goes between the processor and fan). Maybe this was an oversight and it was supposed to have been included, but you'll need to buy some if not. Luckily I had some left over from a previous build.

[Richard King]

No grease here either. Can this be found at Staples so I can get it locally? Is it a special grease or will any type work? Brand name?
It's a good deal being a previous builder with some experience. I'm an amature, but it's an interesting learning experience. (Googling "Thermal Grease")

Thanks.

Edit.
Antek Formula 7 is at the local Staples.

[Lee Flier]

You should be able to find thermal grease locally, at any place that sells computer parts. Or Radio Shack might have it. Intel used to include a little tube of it with their processors, not sure why they stopped doing that because it kind of sucks that you can't install your processor without it.

 

Any brand will work so long as it's specifically thermal grease for electronic parts.

[js1]

If you use the included fan, it has a layer of thermal paste on the fan mount. At least mine did - you pull away the white protective paper and slap it on.

On my last build (Q6600) the fan was so noisy that I bought a replacement Zalman quiet fan. Didn't bother this time - the fan was quiet enough. Or at least it was once I rerouted the fan wires so the blade didn't hit them.

js

[Lee Flier]

If you use the included fan, it has a layer of thermal paste on the fan mount. At least mine did - you pull away the white protective paper and slap it on.

 

Really? Mine didn't have that. Maybe Richard's does.

 

On my last build (Q6600) the fan was so noisy that I bought a replacement Zalman quiet fan.

 

LOL... that was my last build too and I did the same thing.

 

But yeah, this one's nice and quiet.

[MikeRivers]

I bring this up every couple of years when the discussion gets around to specific parts. So Lee chooses a certain model Gigabyte motherboard for whatever reason. I try to get that same model because I trust her judgment and three months later it's no longer available. How do I, who doesn't study these things, decide which of the six other similar-appearing (to me) models will give me similar performance to Lee's system? My answer, always, is that I can't, and don't. I buy a refurbished Dell and it's OK. I suppose I could go with a specialist like Rain or what places like Sweetwater assembles, but would that necessarily be any better than what I can get for half the cost? And how would I know? Does it really matter to someone who isn't a power user?

[Lee Flier]

I bring this up every couple of years when the discussion gets around to specific parts. So Lee chooses a certain model Gigabyte motherboard for whatever reason. I try to get that same model because I trust her judgment and three months later it's no longer available. How do I, who doesn't study these things, decide which of the six other similar-appearing (to me) models will give me similar performance to Lee's system?

 

Well you can get on this forum and ask. Which is pretty much what Richard did.

 

My answer, always, is that I can't, and don't. I buy a refurbished Dell and it's OK. I suppose I could go with a specialist like Rain or what places like Sweetwater assembles, but would that necessarily be any better than what I can get for half the cost? And how would I know? Does it really matter to someone who isn't a power user?

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with buying a Dell - they seem to make very good stuff these days. Whether it would matter to you to do that vs. building your own is really a matter of what you need from the computer. Assuming you can get good recommendations for parts, you will get better quality parts for your intended purpose, and for around the same price, if you opt to build your own (or maybe go with a local computer builder who charges $50-100 to put it together).

 

If you're not doing any type of specialized work with your computer, it won't matter so much. For something specialized like a DAW, it makes a difference because you have the concerns about things like compatibility with audio interfaces (e.g. the problem with cheaper Firewire ports), quiet (so you can choose a case and fans that are designed to be as noiseless as possible), etc. Many brand name computers don't come with a very beefy power supply, which is important for a DAW. You also can also just buy a plain old boxed copy of Windows as opposed to dealing with branded OEM versions that come with pre-built computers, which are always loaded with a bunch of crap you don't want. Sure you could do that with a pre-built computer, but then you're paying again for the OS, which is one of the things you supposedly save on when you buy a brand name pre-built.

 

So, I dunno, to me it's worth a few hours of hassle to build my own, and I've certainly been really happy with my last couple of builds. My last build (which is about 3 years old now) is still my primary computer for my programming biz, and saw quite a bit of DAW use before I built my dedicated DAW, and it's been awesome, no problems at all. Then again my dad, who's a big Photoshop geek, just got an off the shelf i7 based Gateway which has very similar specs to the one I built, and he loves it. Says it's super quiet and incredibly powerful. Will it be as reliable over time as my home built one? Who knows. It cost a couple of hundred dollars more than I spent. I don't recall what power supply is in it, and I don't know whether it has a TI Firewire chip or whether I'd have had to buy a card. But it's probably safe to say he did great for his purposes and I did great for my purposes.

[Richard King]

Well you can get on this forum and ask. Which is pretty much what Richard did.

That's what I did. I've wanted to do this for ages and finally made the decision to give it a shot. I've got the machine put together and am still a nervous wreck about whether it will work. There's LOTS of spare wire from the PS which should be handy in the future. I'm being very basic for the test. I'll add another hard drive once the computer is operating properly. I did get some grease, and there was just a bit of grease on the system. I added a bit to it. I'll be plugging it in a bit after noon eastern time to give it a shot. I assume that I need my Windows 7 disc in the computer when I do this?

By the way, the computer that died completely on me was an HP. The other, partially died was a Systemax.

I'll probably have more questions once I get this operating.

[Lee Flier]

That's what I did. I've wanted to do this for ages and finally made the decision to give it a shot. I've got the machine put together and am still a nervous wreck about whether it will work.

 

Hehe... don't be too surprised if it doesn't work the very first time, but it's pretty hard to actually blow anything up. Usually, if it doesn't work right away it's because there's something you forgot to plug into the power supply or something isn't seated properly (and the latter problem is getting rarer, since components are mostly being made such that it's really obvious when they're seated or not).

 

I'm being very basic for the test. I'll add another hard drive once the computer is operating properly. I did get some grease, and there was just a bit of grease on the system. I added a bit to it. I'll be plugging it in a bit after noon eastern time to give it a shot. I assume that I need my Windows 7 disc in the computer when I do this?

 

Yeah, well you don't need it just to do a post test - that is, the motherboard will fire up and recognize your RAM and you can view your BIOS settings and all that without the disk. If I recall correctly it then asks you for an OS disk and you can insert it at that point. But either way is fine.

 

Fingers crossed for ya!

[Richard King]

Well, It appears that it is going to work. Power is fine, the Windows 7 disc comes up, but.... how do I assign the hard disc in the computer to "Disc C" rather than another letter or symbol before loading Windows 7? Is some kind of formatting on my part required? Does that come after Windows is installed? I would like to create a "Disc C" as the main disc and "Disc D" or other letter for installing Windows. Can that be done FIRST or does it have to be done after and move Windows to there somehow? So far so good. I'll watch for a response, but I know that power is right, obviously the CPU is installed properly and wiring is right (so far). What fun (I think).

You are correct in it asking for an OS disc. But, being a total amature, I don't have a clue about the above "stuff".

[Lee Flier]

If you mean you want to create a separate partition on your drive for the OS, that can be done during the Windows install. There's an option somewhere early on in the install process to do that.

 

I don't bother doing that though, myself.

[js1]

I bring this up every couple of years when the discussion gets around to specific parts. So Lee chooses a certain model Gigabyte motherboard for whatever reason. I try to get that same model because I trust her judgment and three months later it's no longer available. How do I, who doesn't study these things, decide which of the six other similar-appearing (to me) models will give me similar performance to Lee's system? My answer, always, is that I can't, and don't. I buy a refurbished Dell and it's OK. I suppose I could go with a specialist like Rain or what places like Sweetwater assembles, but would that necessarily be any better than what I can get for half the cost? And how would I know? Does it really matter to someone who isn't a power user?

 

 

It's not easy, for sure. I, through an entirely independent path, ended up with the same board as Lee. But, the choice wasn't that large because:

 

- I needed 3 PCI slots (90% of the boards drop out here)

- I needed firewire (there goes half of what was left)

- The firewire had to be the TI chipset, as recommended by the maker of my audio interface (down to about 4)

- I had to be able to actually buy the processor (turns out that some boards I was considering were for nearly obsolete processors) - 2 left

 

The final choice was between one Gigabyte board without the built in video, but could be overclocked (not interested in overclocking a DAW). Or, the Gigabyte board that I bought.

 

But at least there was one. Did a search on that board, saw that some people liked it, and bought it.

 

If I didn't need the PCI slots, I would have been able to choose any number of boards, or indeed a Dell - with one MAJOR restriction.

 

You need to be able to turn off the various power saving features in the BIOS. The newest processors and chipsets are "green" and do things like drop the clock speeds, turn off some of the cores, etc.. Switching power modes usually causes a momentary delay which leads to audio dropouts. So, you need to disable all this stuff.

 

Sometimes, commercial desktops don't have the access to the necessary settings in the BIOS. Don't know if this is an issue with Dells, though.

 

js

[MikeRivers]

 

It's not easy, for sure. I, through an entirely independent path, ended up with the same board as Lee. But, the choice wasn't that large because: - I needed 3 PCI slots (90% of the boards drop out here) - I needed firewire (there goes half of what was left) - The firewire had to be the TI chipset, as recommended by the maker of my audio interface (down to about 4) - I had to be able to actually buy the processor (turns out that some boards I was considering were for nearly obsolete processors) - 2 left

 

 

That's interesting, and a little bit encouraging. I look at it a little differently. I need Firewire also, but I have already decided not to limit my choices of motherboard to ones with a TI Firewire chip because I can always add a bus expansion card that I know works. Odd that there would be motherboards available for CPUs that were unavailable. Maybe it's a good thing so they'll be around for replacements, but I suspect that most people who need to replace a motherboard would probably want to update the CPU as well.

 

 

If I didn't need the PCI slots, I would have been able to choose any number of boards, or indeed a Dell - with one MAJOR restriction. You need to be able to turn off the various power saving features in the BIOS.

 

 

Since I have two or three PCI Firewire cards and a Lynx L22 audio card, I'd want a few PCI slots. I did look into that before I got my last old Dell. It had two PCI slots and that's just as many as I needed. It would be nice to have a spare but I've had that computer for two years and haven't needed another slot. It has a video card in one of the PCIe slots, but there's one of those left. I'm not sure what I could use it for. A UAD DSP card maybe?

 

It's been a while since I went into the BIOS setup to turn anything off. The "home/office" brands like the Dells tend not to have a lot that you can do in there. I have all the power saving features turned off that Windows lets me turn off, so the disk drive never stops, the monitor never blanks, and it doesn't go to sleep until I tell it to. It's a single-core Pentium 4 and I think it can slow the clock down, but I trust it comes back up to speed by the time I really need it. I don't know, but then I don't work it hard enough to tell. I'm inclined to put it into hibernation rather than shut it off entirely so it comes up quicker, but I have that set up so that's what it does unless I hold the Power button down for a few seconds.

 

 

Switching power modes usually causes a momentary delay which leads to audio dropouts. So, you need to disable all this stuff.

 

 

Does it switch power modes while you're working? That's dumb. I wouldn't expect it to do that. Maybe it throttles down if you leave it on while you leave it to have lunch, but I wouldn't expect it to decide that it can slow down while it's playing or recording audio. Does they really do that? Why???????

[Richard King]

Well, Disc C is just fine and working, but, for some reason it doesn't know how to hit the net, even when I have this same cable plugged in and trying. The light indicator at the connection works, indicating to me that the connection to the board is working. Being an amature I suspect it's related to a code of some kind. I may try to talk to my internet supplier and see what I'm doing wrong (maybe). I don't think I'll worry about it tonight and hit it tomorrow morning. Feel free to throw out any ideas, and thanks all for previous comments. It is an interesting learning process that I wish I had tried on my own years ago.

By the way, using all Firestudio gear for location recording I need the TI chips also. It seems that that is what works best with them (I think and will verify when I get this thing fully doing it's need).

[js1]

Does it switch power modes while you're working? That's dumb. I wouldn't expect it to do that. Maybe it throttles down if you leave it on while you leave it to have lunch, but I wouldn't expect it to decide that it can slow down while it's playing or recording audio. Does they really do that? Why???????

 

 

The newest generation of processors has become really sophisticated in power management - with many more tricks than your single core P4 has.

 

Why? Well, when you look at computers using 500 - 700 watts when they are going full speed, it's easy to understand why. Also, power management is used to get higher performance - give it a variable clock boost when it's needed temporarily, then drop it back so the processor doesn't overheat.

 

And, yes, with modern processors, this is going on ALL THE TIME. Unless you disable it.

 

DAWs may be the toughest, most taxing application that you can put on a computer. For almost any other application you would never notice it.

 

js

[MikeRivers]

 

The newest generation of processors has become really sophisticated in power management - with many more tricks than your single core P4 has. Why? Well, when you look at computers using 500 - 700 watts when they are going full speed, it's easy to understand why.

 

 

Well, but if they're busy enough to use that power, why would the power management system decide to reduce it? Is it trying to tell you that you shouldn't be working your computer that hard?

 

 

And, yes, with modern processors, this is going on ALL THE TIME. Unless you disable it. DAWs may be the toughest, most taxing application that you can put on a computer. For almost any other application you would never notice it.

 

 

I leave my desk computer on all the time, and I have certain power management features enabled since I'm often away from it for several hours at a stretch, but I don't like to wait 3-4 minutes to use it when I want to use it. I think it draws only about 200 watts. Still, when I check my mail when I wake up in the morning, I notice the slight delay when the hard drive, which was sleeping most of the time that I was, comes up to speed. Yet for the next couple of hours while I'm working on the computer, nothing slows down that I notice.

 

DAWs aren't particularly hard on computers. It's trivial to stream 24 tracks to and from a disk drive as long as the disk doesn't decide to go off and do something on its own in the middle of the job. That's an operating system thing, though (or at least it should be). I remember back in the early days of using computers for audio when disk drives used to do a recalibration periodically. This was something that was built into the drive's firmware and was independent of the computer's operating system, application programs, or BIOS. If it decided, in the middle of a recording, that it was time to recalibrate, you'd get a glitch. Fortunately those days are over, but maybe they've been replaced by something else that I don't know about.

 

What makes a DAW hard works is the computation necessary to do the mixing and signal processing. But since that's going on all the time, I can't imagine why an OS or the motherboard firmware would decide to throttle it back. That sounds like a good reason to complain to the manufacturers.

 

I would think that computers used for games would be more demanding than a DAW computer. That's as real-time as audio. One thing that they have going for them is sophisticated co-processor graphics cards. They can sell enough of those to keep the price reasonable, and gamers are willing to pay as much for a faster graphics board as I do for a whole computer.

 

Maybe we need "smart" sound cards. We used to have them, and there are still some functions, like the audio interfaces that have a built-in DSP mixer for monitoring and go a step further by building a basic reverb into the hardware so you can gussy up a headphone mix without putting that load on the DAW computer. But there are far fewer of us than there are of them, so the market research still isn't guiding the industry in that direction.

 

And of course, nobody in this business wants to buy integrated hardware because it goes out of date so quickly. How many people are still using those great Akai and Roland multitrack workstations of a dozen or so years ago? Or the elegant TASCAM SX-1? Nope, today people want cheep cheep cheep cheep - cheap enough to be disposable, though many still grumble when it's time to move on and they see this nice looking hardware that's become obsolete the morning after they do a major computer upgrade.

[js1]

What makes DAWs demanding is playing virtual instruments and amp emulations while you've got all your tracks loaded to the hilt with plug ins. Playing THROUGH the DAW, you want low latency.

If your latency is set to 64 samples, that's a grand total of 1.5 ms that every plug in, virtual instrument, amp emulation has to process all that wonderful math for 64 samples. It's a testament to the power of modern processors that you can do this.

But, all it takes is a 500 us hit from ANYTHING else, and you've lost 1/3 of the cycles for that 64 sample interval. And you hear a dropout/glitch/click.

Taking it from the other way, something like 3% of all electricity goes to powering computers. A 30% power reduction is a big win.

Anyways, if you want a much better explanation than I've written, read this: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/465221-c1e-c3-c6-eist-speedstep-turbo-boost-core-parking.html

It's written by one of the guys from ADK Music Computers.

js

[Lee Flier]

Well, Disc C is just fine and working, but, for some reason it doesn't know how to hit the net, even when I have this same cable plugged in and trying. The light indicator at the connection works, indicating to me that the connection to the board is working.

 

Yeah, I think that Windows 7 has the network driver disabled by default, even though it may show up as enabled. Click the little network icon in your bottom right system tray (which probably has a yellow exclamation point) and go to "Open Network and Sharing Center". From there, choose "Change Adapter Settings" and select your network adapter (you should see a "Local Area Network" connection). From there you should see either "Enable this network device" (if it is disabled) or "Disable this Network Device." If it's disabled, just hitting "Enable" should take care of it. If it's already showing up as enabled, click "Disable" and then "Enable" again. Save your changes and wait a few seconds, and you should see the yellow exclamation point go away.

 

Hope that works... if not you might try your ISP as you mentioned.

 

It is an interesting learning process that I wish I had tried on my own years ago.

 

Yeah, it's kinda fun ain't it? Always exciting when you fire up a new build and it works.

[Richard King]

Internet is working. I had to load the software on the supplied disc. Silly me. I'm bypassing my distribution box, but will check that out later. So far so good. Lots of software to load.

[MikeRivers]

What makes DAWs demanding is playing virtual instruments and amp emulations while you've got all your tracks loaded to the hilt with plug ins. Playing THROUGH the DAW, you want low latency.

 

Well, yeah, but you don't have to do that. If you need to load plug-ins to the hilt, you're probably over-engineering. But if you really have to do that, you can render the track with the plug-ins to a new track, then turn off the fully loaded track. And you can monitor your playing using an audio output from a synth controlled by whatever you're using as a controller. It might not be the exact sound you want from the virtual instrument, but it's no load on the computer. Once you have the notes recorded, you can play with virtual instruments to your heart's content.

 

Sure, it's nice if all of those things are transparent, but if making a computer reliable and stable means work-arounds, well, that's what we've always done in the studio.

 

By the way, just the other day I was playing around wtih latency numbers for a product review. You know that your actual delay isn't just the number of samples divided by the sample rate. 64 samples is indeed 1.5 ms delay going through the ASIO buffer but when you take into account the A/D and D/A converters and (in the case of the device I'm working with) the DSP monitor mixer, the actual (measured) delay from mic in to monitor out is 6.5 ms. A virtual instrument eliminates the A/D converter delay, but adds however long it takes the software to make the sample and shove it out to the D/A converter.

 

If your latency is set to 64 samples, that's a grand total of 1.5 ms that every plug in, virtual instrument, amp emulation has to process all that wonderful math for 64 samples. It's a testament to the power of modern processors that you can do this.

 

It's a testament to modern technology that you can actually play music with all those handicaps.

 

Taking it from the other way, something like 3% of all electricity goes to powering computers. A 30% power reduction is a big win.

 

I'll let the net surfers and the letter-writing grandmas save the world. When I'm using my computer, I'm willing to pay for the electricity it uses. Interesting article, by the way. Thanks for that link.