Comparison Video between AC-15HW and AC15-VR!!!

[jrockbridge]

 

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

The HW needs to be cranked up to where the Alnico speaker is getting pushed a bit, I agree. Which isn't all the way cranked, but it's a pretty decent volume. I did try to reach at least that level for these recordings. I had the Master bypassed for a while but it was overloading the mic, hah. Given that I was reaching 80% or so of the input channel on my mic with the gain at zero, I think it was still pretty loud. I think I need a pad for these condensers.

 

You may need to change your miking approach to get better results. There's nothing wrong with a certain amount of ambient mic placement to capture the room signature. Still, it's not by accident that some of the best tube amp recordings use close mikes. If you have some way to use multiple mic's, perhaps you can find a nice blend of close and ambient.

[honeyiscool]

I'll definitely try different approaches. I had my pencil condenser about a foot out here. I might try my large diaphragm AT3035 since that has a 10 db pad, that will allow me to be a little less careful, and using a large condenser should enhance the bass response since it seems like this thing can use it. I'm actually mostly happy with the sounds I'm getting, and I feel like they give the vibe of the amps I'm recording.

With all respect to everyone that uses it, I'm not really interested in the close dynamic mic sound. I understand a lot of people's favorite rock recordings did the whole Les Paul -> Marshall -> SM57 at the cone thing, but that's really the last sound I want, with all respect to everyone who's tried that and gotten good results. My favorite sounding albums definitely didn't do that. I might try some large diaphragm dynamic mics at maybe 4 to 5 inches, maybe combine it with a further off condenser.

I like close mics on bass cabs, though. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea but I really like the sound of a small dynamic like an i5 or e906 on a bass cab, slightly off axis.

[Tone Deaf]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I'll definitely try different approaches. I had my pencil condenser about a foot out here. I might try my large diaphragm AT3035 since that has a 10 db pad, that will allow me to be a little less careful, and using a large condenser should enhance the bass response since it seems like this thing can use it. I'm actually mostly happy with the sounds I'm getting, and I feel like they give the vibe of the amps I'm recording.

With all respect to everyone that uses it, I'm not really interested in the close dynamic mic sound. I understand a lot of people's favorite rock recordings did the whole Les Paul -> Marshall -> SM57 at the cone thing, but that's really the last sound I want, with all respect to everyone who's tried that and gotten good results. My favorite sounding albums definitely didn't do that. I might try some large diaphragm dynamic mics at maybe 4 to 5 inches, maybe combine it with a further off condenser.

I like close mics on bass cabs, though. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea but I really like the sound of a small dynamic like an i5 or e906 on a bass cab, slightly off axis.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. If you stop spewing specs for 5 minutes and just try experimenting and let your ears tell you what sounds good, you'll be better off. I speak from experience. There was a time when I was enamored with specs as well. Get over that hump and you'll enjoy what you do a lot more. I mean this from a good place, not in a mean way.

[MorganB]

Thanks for posting...sweet sound at the end.

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by Tone Deaf

Blah, blah, blah, blah. If you stop spewing specs for 5 minutes and just try experimenting and let your ears tell you what sounds good, you'll be better off. I speak from experience. There was a time when I was enamored with specs as well. Get over that hump and you'll enjoy what you do a lot more. I mean this from a good place, not in a mean way.

Come on, be fair. You really think I haven't tred a close mic before?

Don't think that because I write a lot of words, that I don't love what I do. I enjoy playing, writing, and recording a lot. If I didn't, I wouldn't do so much of it.

[jrockbridge]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Come on, be fair. You really think I haven't tred a close mic before?

Don't think that because I write a lot of words, that I don't love what I do. I enjoy playing, writing, and recording a lot. If I didn't, I wouldn't do so much of it.

I think Tone Deaf was just trying to tell you to keep an open mind and experiment. You've got a brand new amp and you've already got a bunch of preconceived notions as to what's going to get you the best sounds. That's certainly one approach. But, so far, I'm not hearing the kind of results you should be able to capture.

[Tone Deaf]

Originally Posted by jrockbridge

I think Tone Deaf was just trying to tell you to keep an open mind and experiment. You've got a brand new amp and you've already got a bunch of preconceived notions as to what's going to get you the best sounds. That's certainly one approach. But, so far, I'm not hearing the kind of results you should be able to capture.

This man was paying attention.

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

Come on, be fair. You really think I haven't tred a close mic before?

Don't think that because I write a lot of words, that I don't love what I do. I enjoy playing, writing, and recording a lot. If I didn't, I wouldn't do so much of it.

I'm sure you do enjoy it. But see? You can't even rebutt my post without spewing more jargon...close mic...yes, I'm sure you've tried it. Now try recording in your bathroom, hang a mic from the ceiling, mic the back of the amp. Try using a cheap ass Radio Shack Realistic mic, try moving your tone controls to settings you don't normally use. Just step outside of quoting specs and following conventional wisdom.

[cratz2]

My only advice about getting the best tones out of your new hand-wired amp is, based on my four years experience using Voxes as my main amps is the Celestion Blue really needs to be pushed to sound its best. An attenuator won't work as having the power tubes cooking is only part of the equation... A relatively small part.

I think its something about the compression of the Blue itself... An attenuator or a good pedal helps add some very believably crunch that a master volume doesn't do quite as well, nor do the triode/pentode switches of the H1TV amps. They definitely change the tone and the feel of the amp though.

Bottom line, HIC, if you have the means and the chance, try running the amp with the Master wide open and keep nudging the volume up until 'it' happens. My guess is it will be around 1:00 or 2:00 with single coils. Decades of guitarists loving that cranked Vox tone aren't wrong.

[megawzrd]

Originally Posted by jrockbridge

If you want the AC-15HW to sound great when recorded, crank it up loud. Pure tube amps do not sound great at lower volumes. It's just not their thing. The master volume is useful for playing the amp at lower volumes but should NOT be used when recording. If you absolutely must be able to record at lower volumes, get a quality attenuator. For example, the Dr Z Airbrake is more transparent than most. Even so, you'll get better results without using an attenuator and without using the master volume.

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

The HW needs to be cranked up to where the Alnico speaker is getting pushed a bit, I agree. Which isn't all the way cranked, but it's a pretty decent volume. I did try to reach at least that level for these recordings. I had the Master bypassed for a while but it was overloading the mic, hah. Given that I was reaching 80% or so of the input channel on my mic with the gain at zero, I think it was still pretty loud. I think I need a pad for these condensers.

That alnico blue break up is nice but it is more of an audience/live sound. I have had really good luck with a weber mini mass in pushing the output tubes and attenuating the volume. For me output tubes at 80-90% is where is where the magic is (output tubes at 80-90%). I have no trouble with dialing in toanz in a small room (office) and also capturing that sound on a SM57 directed at the cone (open cab).

I should get off my bum and get another recording interface though since mine died recently. Not that I need a reason to go to guitar center today.

HIC, It is guys like you that are experimenting to the nth degree that will come upon that "unique" sound you are searching for and could be very intriguing for listeners. I like your idea of combining a condenser mic placed somewhere else in the room on the track.

FWIW, on second listen I like the HW better on the crackle and singing sections. Some of the dynamics that are missing in the VR comparitively didn't jump out to me on first listen. On those passages the HW seems to have more breath.

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by jrockbridge

I think Tone Deaf was just trying to tell you to keep an open mind and experiment. You've got a brand new amp and you've already got a bunch of preconceived notions as to what's going to get you the best sounds. That's certainly one approach. But, so far, I'm not hearing the kind of results you should be able to capture.

What do people think I want to capture, though? I don't know, it just seems like maybe you and I want to hear different things, which is fine.

I do have an open mind, but I also have a very set idea on the sound I do want... and that sound isn't going to be no close mic, that's for sure. In fact, I actively want to avoid it. To put it all in a context we can all understand, I mean, there are people who think In Utero is a terrible sounding album. I think it's a great sounding album. I'd like to sound more like that, not like Nevermind, which in my mind, is somewhat tired sounding these days (although still great). I don't want things that up front, I want them surrounding the listener. If you think I can achieve that kind of vibe with close mics, let me know specifically how I should do it because I'll gladly listen.

But yeah, I have a set of things I avoid in my life when I'm working on my own music. For instance, I don't play in unison with the bass, I don't even like playing in parallel. I don't like to play pentatonic unless it's necessary for the song. And I avoid close micing in non-live situations. Just saying... plenty of people do exactly what I said and get great results, but this is my thing. And I'd like to keep it that way, because I want to have a style and a sound. Otherwise, why do I even bother with gear?

[honeyiscool]

Originally Posted by cratz2

My only advice about getting the best tones out of your new hand-wired amp is, based on my four years experience using Voxes as my main amps is the Celestion Blue really needs to be pushed to sound its best. An attenuator won't work as having the power tubes cooking is only part of the equation... A relatively small part.

I think its something about the compression of the Blue itself... An attenuator or a good pedal helps add some very believably crunch that a master volume doesn't do quite as well, nor do the triode/pentode switches of the H1TV amps. They definitely change the tone and the feel of the amp though.

Bottom line, HIC, if you have the means and the chance, try running the amp with the Master wide open and keep nudging the volume up until 'it' happens. My guess is it will be around 1:00 or 2:00 with single coils. Decades of guitarists loving that cranked Vox tone aren't wrong.

Agreed! When I was messing around, I was getting some magic happening in the Normal channel with the Master bypassed with the volume knob exactly where you said, around 1 or 2. With the pickups in parallel, it had jangle, with series, it had sustain. I can't do this all day, or I'll probably get a noise complaint, but oh well, hah. At low volumes, the chime doesn't really even factor in for me. I think part of the fun of the HW for me is just having that Alnico in there, every time I can hear Alnico compression, it makes me smile. The 7.5 watt switch is useful in its own way, like you said. But it's not really the same thing.

Originally Posted by megawzrd

That alnico blue break up is nice but it is more of an audience/live sound. I have had really good luck with a weber mini mass in pushing the output tubes and attenuating the volume. For me output tubes at 80-90% is where is where the magic is (output tubes at 80-90%). I have no trouble with dialing in toanz in a small room (office) and also capturing that sound on a SM57 directed at the cone (open cab).

I should get off my bum and get another recording interface though since mine died recently. Not that I need a reason to go to guitar center today.

HIC, It is guys like you that are experimenting to the nth degree that will come upon that "unique" sound you are searching for and could be very intriguing for listeners. I like your idea of combining a condenser mic placed somewhere else in the room on the track.

FWIW, on second listen I like the HW better on the crackle and singing sections. Some of the dynamics that are missing in the VR comparitively didn't jump out to me on first listen. On those passages the HW seems to have more breath.

Yeah. I don't know if I can throw an attenuator into the budget yet... but, thankfully, at least I can crank my AC4C1 pretty loud in my apartment, which at 4 watts is pretty manageable, plus the HW has the 7.5 watt switch, so I would like to avoid buying anything new for a while.

You should check out the Native Komplete Audio 6. I just got one as my portable unit, and it's pretty damn awesome so far. Affordable and so easy to use. If you register it before the end of the year, it comes with Guitar Rig Pro 5 for free, and then you can have it both ways. I mean, I love my amps, but Guitar Rig is still the easiest way to get good sound in an apartment.

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

[jrockbridge]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

What do people think I want to capture, though? I don't know, it just seems like maybe you and I want to hear different things, which is fine.

I do have an open mind, but I also have a very set idea on the sound I do want... and that sound isn't going to be no close mic, that's for sure. In fact, I actively want to avoid it. To put it all in a context we can all understand, I mean, there are people who think In Utero is a terrible sounding album. I think it's a great sounding album. I'd like to sound more like that, not like Nevermind, which in my mind, is somewhat tired sounding these days (although still great). I don't want things that up front, I want them surrounding the listener. If you think I can achieve that kind of vibe with close mics, let me know specifically how I should do it because I'll gladly listen.

But yeah, I have a set of things I avoid in my life when I'm working on my own music. For instance, I don't play in unison with the bass, I don't even like playing in parallel. I don't like to play pentatonic unless it's necessary for the song. And I avoid close micing in non-live situations. Just saying... plenty of people do exactly what I said and get great results, but this is my thing. And I'd like to keep it that way, because I want to have a style and a sound. Otherwise, why do I even bother with gear?

You don't sound anything like what's on those two albums. And, I don't mean that as a dig, you just have a different vibe.

I can appreciate you wanting to have a different recorded sound. However, that really nice, hand-wired amp sounds worse than many budget amps the way you've recorded it here. I was trying to give you a nudge toward achieving better results but I didn't have anything specific in mind. Now, that you've mentioned you recorded this in an apartment, I think I get the picture why it sounds so anemic. Trying to keep the volume down while you ambient mic amps is a recipe for disaster IMO.

[honeyiscool]

I don't sound anything like In Utero, I know that. But if you listen to Albini's general vibe in the way he approaches guitar, it's how I want to approach the guitar as a recorded instrument. The way he gets bands to sound like they're rehearsing in your room, that's how I want to sound, but in a different genre and with different tones, of course.

In your opinion, these recordings sounds bad, and I respect that. However, for me, it's getting close to something that I think I can drop into one of my recordings w/ too much messing with EQ or effects and be pretty happy with... but that's my taste, entirely. There's a good chance that if you recorded my guitar parts the way you think it should sound, that I wouldn't like it. And that's fine. In the end, if absolute end result is the only thing that matters, it's hard to do better than a really good Guitar Rig patch, but I want to try a different approach.

[jrockbridge]

Originally Posted by honeyiscool

I don't sound anything like In Utero, I know that. But if you listen to Albini's general vibe in the way he approaches guitar, it's how I want to approach the guitar as a recorded instrument. The way he gets bands to sound like they're rehearsing in your room, that's how I want to sound, but in a different genre and with different tones, of course.

In your opinion, these recordings sounds bad, and I respect that. However, for me, it's getting close to something that I think I can drop into one of my recordings w/ too much messing with EQ or effects and be pretty happy with... but that's my taste, entirely. There's a good chance that if you recorded my guitar parts the way you think it should sound, that I wouldn't like it. And that's fine. In the end, if absolute end result is the only thing that matters, it's hard to do better than a really good Guitar Rig patch, but I want to try a different approach.

In that case, I think there's two things you should change to get better results. 1) Crank the amps up much louder when you record. 2) Use mic's that can take loud volume from amps. Keep everything else the same in terms of the way you like to position mikes to capture some of the ambient sound of a room.

You should never have to turn down an amp because the mic can't handle the output. That's counter productive with an all tube amp.