Members fusionfunk Posted November 6, 2011 Members Share Posted November 6, 2011 One of the projects I play in, is a duo. Just an acoustic guitar and me, on a tiny kit. No bass player. My guitarist is an absolutely amazing musician that makes my job a lot easier than it could be, and both of us are seasoned studio musicians, so tempo/timing is not an issue. But, in your scenario, it sounds to me like that is exactly the primary problem you are facing with your drummer.Bottom line is every musician in a band, whether it be a duo or a 15 piece with a horn section and back-up singers, must all have good time, or at least all be on the same page, so to speak. If he is not willing to practice your material with a metronome, and not willing to work on his timing, I'd look for another drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buckin Fastard Posted November 6, 2011 Members Share Posted November 6, 2011 Drummer ain't responsible for everybody's time. The drummer is responsible for HIS time. Each musician is responsible for his own sense of time. The drummer is responsible for a consistent BEAT. If his timing in relationship to yours sucks and it bothers you that bad tell him and make sure yours is worth paying a ticket for. If you tell him and he doesn't make the changes that you don't like just move on. Be prepared to hear what he has to say about you though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted November 6, 2011 Members Share Posted November 6, 2011 If he's fast or slow on a part during practice I can't do much but adjust my playing and singing and do my best to stay with him... Ummm... ...no. If tempo should be 'x' bpm, and that's what you're playing at, and he plays faster or slower, you can stay at the tempo you're playing at. It will make his speeding up/slowing down that much more obvious.Maybe that's your problem; if you keep adjusting to his mistakes, how will he ever know he has a problem in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 6, 2011 Great thread! I wasn't expecting so many responses and opinions. I have to leave for work soon otherwise I'd respond to individual posts. I was waiting for someone to say that the drummer is the time keeper but I wasn't sure if people still think that way. I do agree that everyone is responsible for their own time but the one making the beats should have a better sense of tempo than the rest of the band. It is really hard for me to play faster or slow than the drummer but I will try doing this at future practices when he is off. I guess I also wouldn't see the need for a drummer to play songs outside of band practice if they have them down *and* are playing them at the correct tempo. Really really good musicians don't need to practice as much. We are not really really good. We are not The White Stripes, haha. We play heavy metal. We've been playing together for about 2 years now. We started with a few song sketches and a bunch of riffs. I basically have figured out how to sing and write songs during that time. I had not done any actual singing in about 20 years. I've had a few near band experiences but this is the first real band I've ever been in. We learned 2 covers and have written 5 songs, 1 of them an instrumental, ranging from about 3:30 to 6 or 7 minutes each. I'm not ready to "move on" as I like his drumming. I will see how he reacts to the CD idea. I think he'll go for it. I am prepared to spend a lot more time playing guitar and singing to increase my skills either way. I'd like to say more but I need to leave for work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnbe Posted November 6, 2011 Members Share Posted November 6, 2011 Doesn't sound like you have a band as much as you have a problem. If your drummer isn't willing to practice the songs, he might not like the material for whatever reason. You can't make him a better drummer and there's no point trying to change him. If he's not self-driven to be the best possible drummer he can be, you can't do it for him and he'll just drag you down. Don't torture yourself. It might be easier for you to just find a band that needs a guitar player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Crap, 2 years and 7 songs? and they aren't tight? you guys need a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Crap, 2 years and 7 songs? and they aren't tight? you guys need a change. As in throw away the songs and start over? No way. Keep in mind I had to learn how to write songs, write lyrics, and sing over the last couple of years and I don't write songs quickly. I spent 13 or 14 years basically just goofing around on guitar and bass but that changed when I finally found someone to play with who didn't flake out or move away. Something clicked and I was finally able to actually finish songs on guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buckin Fastard Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I do agree that everyone is responsible for their own time but the one making the beats should have a better sense of tempo than the rest of the band. Wrong. The one making the beats is responsible for keeping the beats in time. I'm not accountable for you not being able to keep your time in your phrasing. That's equivalent to saying the lead guitar is responsible for playing lead licks and making sure the bassist stays in key. Learn your part and keep the agreed upon time. If the band hits on 2-and but you miss the hit that's not the drummer's fault. If his timing is so bad then move on. If not get a drum machine and have him play to the program. And record it. See what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Wrong. The one making the beats is responsible for keeping the beats in time. I'm not accountable for you not being able to keep your time in your phrasing. That's equivalent to saying the lead guitar is responsible for playing lead licks and making sure the bassist stays in key. Learn your part and keep the agreed upon time. If the band hits on 2-and but you miss the hit that's not the drummer's fault. If his timing is so bad then move on. If not get a drum machine and have him play to the program. And record it. See what happens. I'm not talking about keeping time in phrasing, I'm talking about beats per minute although yes my time in phrasing does need some work mostly when I am also singing. Of course that is not anyone's fault but mine. And when the drums are being played at 85 BPM instead of 75 it's not my fault but I will try harder from now on to temporarily ignore the drums when that happens and slow my playing down and hope the drums also slow down. Ignoring is what it will take. Stringed instrument players put a lot of effort into playing in time with the beat, whether it's provided by a human or a machine. If I tap my foot at the correct speed or at a speed that is at least closer to correct relative to what the drums are doing I might be able to take control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Buckin Fastard Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 I'm not talking about keeping time in phrasing, I'm talking about beats per minute although yes my time in phrasing does need some work mostly when I am also singing. Of course that is not anyone's fault but mine. And when the drums are being played at 85 BPM instead of 75 it's not my fault but I will try harder from now on to temporarily ignore the drums when that happens and slow my playing down and hope the drums also slow down. Ignoring is what it will take. Stringed instrument players put a lot of effort into playing in time with the beat, whether it's provided by a human or a machine. If I tap my foot at the correct speed or at a speed that is at least closer to correct relative to what the drums are doing I might be able to take control. Keeping time in BPM's on your instrument is your responsibility not the drummer's. That's where every other instrumentalist is completely wrong about drummers. It's not my job to keep you in time. It's my job to provide and assist with a measured rhythm that is played at an agreed upon BPM not mark time for you. That's what a metronome is for. I saw an interview in '96 with Ron Carter where at one point he was asked about having ever played with drummers with bad timing and how does he keep his in the face of that. His reply was "I don't worry about that because it's not his job to make sure I'm in time. That's MY job. It's his job to supply and support the rhythmic progression." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Keeping time in BPM's on your instrument is your responsibility not the drummer's. That's where every other instrumentalist is completely wrong about drummers. It's not my job to keep you in time. It's my job to provide and assist with a measured rhythm that is played at an agreed upon BPM not mark time for you. That's what a metronome is for. I saw an interview in '96 with Ron Carter where at one point he was asked about having ever played with drummers with bad timing and how does he keep his in the face of that. His reply was "I don't worry about that because it's not his job to make sure I'm in time. That's MY job. It's his job to supply and support the rhythmic progression." Fair enough. Next practice is going to be VERY interesting. I will practice battling against my drum machine first before hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundcreation Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 From the sounds of it the music you are playing would require more solid time more so than some one like a white stripes which is essentially loose on purpose. It also sounds to me like he is just plain lazy and making excuses. Now it may be that he is self conscious about using the metronome during practice because his tempo is so bad. No matter how hard he might try he may simply be NOT able to play your tunes at a given time. If that's the case he needs a lot of work and needs to SLOW down and build it up. So say you have some tricky metal song that pushes his limits. Maybe at like 130 bpm for example. When there is no metronome maybe he can "play" all the parts, but when the click comes he doesn't know how to "fit it all in" properly. That means he needs to start learning those parts with the click AS SLOWLY as it is required for him to play it properly. So set the metronome at like 50bpm, and play it IN TIME. You could do this together with him...maybe con him a bit by saying YOU need to nail the parts correctly or whatever....but he needs the click. And if he can't accept that then nothing will change. Oh and in ear monitors are the way to go to hear clicks over the drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 Actually we don't do anything in odd time signatures and most of our songs are slow or on the slower end of mid-paced, our sound is centered around the genre of doom metal which is slow to mid-paced generally. Many of the patterns he writes are double the speed of what I play and often somewhat busy sounding rather than being sparse and simple like the drumming styles of some of the bands that influence me. We'll figure this out one way or the other... or we won't. I will continue on regardless. I appreciate all of the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnbe Posted November 7, 2011 Members Share Posted November 7, 2011 You and your drummer should be able to play together. His speeding up and slowing down isn't about a particular bpm. If you could play a perfect 120 bpm and your drummer can't, it's going to sound off, and vice versa. If you guys aren't using a click, you can forget the perfect bpm. That being said, the drummer's job is to be a time keeper. If he can't maintain steady time, whatever the bpm, it won't work. Also, it is possible that he's trying to adjust to you. Steady time is more important than perfect bpm. The song may be 120 bpm, but the drummer is going to give you a variation of that. Whatever the beat it should be steady. The drummer needs to know that you count on his ability to keep steady time, and that you always will play to his beat. He needs to be given that responsibility. If he's playing too fast or too slow, verbally tell him and he will adjust. But, he should never try to adjust to any speed variation in your playing. He holds the beat. You play to it. And that goes for any other instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thirschler Posted November 17, 2011 Members Share Posted November 17, 2011 We record every practice. Why do you think it's such a big deal. Just pick up a cheap recorder by zoom or tascam and plunk it up when you're practicing. Seems to me you guys don't respect each other musically and it's time to call it quits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 17, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2011 We record every practice. Why do you think it's such a big deal. Just pick up a cheap recorder by zoom or tascam and plunk it up when you're practicing. Seems to me you guys don't respect each other musically and it's time to call it quits. We don't respect each other musically just because we are having tempo issues? Lately I have been recording every practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomboomdrums Posted November 17, 2011 Members Share Posted November 17, 2011 Not sure if anyone mentioned this, I didn't read page 2. I'd recommend that your drummer get a tempo ref. It's not a metronome, it just gives a digital readout of the tempo you're playing sort of. It works best when playing a steady pattern. Then the drummer can tell if he/she is speeding up or slowing down. I have tempo issues myself that I've fought for a long time and continue to work on, so I have one and it's great. It also ends all arguments at rehearsal as to if the song is slowing down or speeding up or not. One other thing. Is the tempo the problem, or not knowing the structure of the songs? If it's the latter, maybe you could make a recording of yourself playing the song with a metronome and let him practice with that. He should be able to hear the recording with headphones on while playing the drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members earthoverdrive Posted November 18, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2011 Oh yeah tempo ref, I forgot all about that thing, maybe we will try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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