Members takeout Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by ThudMaker That's the best you got? It makes at least as much sense as your explanation. Homosexuality exists throughout the animal kingdom, including in species without the capacity for reason. Animals, for the most part, operate on instinct - hardwired patterns. But how did they get wired that way? You claim that homosexuality is against nature - hence an aberration - yet it is widespread, disputing your assertion. And statistically speaking, at what point is something outside the norm? The genes for Far East Asian features (dark hair, epicanthic folds, intolerance for alcohol, etc.) are far more prevalent than those found in Caucasians, by virtue of sheer numbers. Are our traits then some kind of deformity? Sexual behavior and the instinct to carry on one's own genetic line are not inextricably linked. Your "why haven't gays evolved boobs and wombs" example is specious at best. Care to continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by rastafarian_nz You know you've been here too long if you link the words "tolerance" and "virtue" to C7. Wait a second, what? What the {censored} do I have to do with any of this? I didn't even post in this {censored}ing thread.Jesus...C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rastafarian_nz Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Crescent Seven Wait a second, what? What the {censored} do I have to do with any of this? I didn't even post in this {censored}ing thread. Jesus... C7 No, no, no. Completely OT. You just happened to be the figure that came to mind when I read the thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted October 23, 2006 Moderators Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by takeout You claim that homosexuality is against nature Care to continue? Sure. I never used the words homosexuality is against nature. Care to continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 This whole thing fits into my rambling recently about having bigger fish to fry...sure, any bussiness has a right to choose who they will work for and who they wont. It's their loss, right?But what good could it possibly do to not work for someone because they are gay (or anything else for that matter). Did that make them not-gay? Did they convert them? Just what, exactly, did this bussiness accomplish?Seems to me all they did was further the stereo type of Christians being intolerant and looking down on other people.Way to go guys, I am *sure* that is what it's all about. Way to send a message of love and understanding...Blarg, this sort of thing really gets under my skin lately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 They need to turn their Gaydar down a little bit. How do you know if a customer is gay? Effeminate voice? Butch haircut? Metrosexual styling? They've probably turned down as much straight business as they have gay business, unless they are just coming straight out and asking "hey, are you gay?" What a joke. I mean, you get to choose I guess, but it's not like small businesses can really afford to turn down paying customers. I'm sure their competitors are happy with their choice... C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Crescent Seven They need to turn their Gaydar down a little bit. How do you know if a customer is gay? Effeminate voice? Butch haircut? Metrosexual styling? They've probably turned down as much straight business as they have gay business, unless they are just coming straight out and asking "hey, are you gay?" What a joke. I mean, you get to choose I guess, but it's not like small businesses can really afford to turn down paying customers. I'm sure their competitors are happy with their choice... C7 Even if they do "turn down their Gaydar" (*snort*) they really need to step back and ask themselves what they are trying to prove. As a follower of Christ, why turn someone away just because of ?Christ broke all those goofy rules all the time: the woman at the well, eating with "sinners", etc.Even if one doesn't believe in those stories, people that claim to follow him and act like this really tick me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 82Daion Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by xOriginalNinjax Do you honestly want to go into the debate with me? We may be here a while... Well, if your evidence is worthy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Narcosynthesis Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Resusing to work for them because they are gay is no different to choosing not to work for someone because they are a jew, or an arab, was hitler right in disliking jews? they have more choice in the matter than gay people over what they believe and live by (admittedly he took a slightly more extreme view, but you get the idea...) On the other hand, what about respecting the beliefs of a religion? There are enough stories in the media over people complaining about muslims wearing veils where people get their arms twisted up their backs to make sure they don't say anythign that would offend muslims, surely some christians not wanting to have anything to do with gay people is a similar ideal? It's all {censored}ing stupid to me, gay, muslim, christian all people and all have the chance of being as nice to know as any other, the only people I have a real dislike of are the arseholes out there (who come in all varietys) I will respect their beliefs as long as they respect mine and don't try to force their thoughts apon me David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xOriginalNinjax Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by 82Daion Well, if your evidence is worthy... Ok, I'm going to come at this from as much of a secular, non-Christian stand-point as much as possible, and then go into Christianity if needed. This will be in sections, and we'll go over sections at a time, otherwise, it could end up a jumbled mess.If we say that man is evolving and evolved from a lower species, then we take all traits shown from that species. Homosexuality in the animal kingdom occurs, but is rare, and typically just because of frustration, not due to mating preference. Now, since it is SOMEWHAT in the animal kingdom, it is possible that humans maintained that through evolution, but evolution is about survival of the fittest. So, if mankind did evolve, and gained homosexuality, then it would be obvious that it would eventually evolve out of us, due to those who are homosexual cannot survive past one generation. So, either homosexuals need to learn to homogenously reproduce, or they will be out evolved. I believe that it is a CHOICE from this, because due to adaptation and the need for survival from an evolution standpoint, all humans would have an innate desire to pass on their genetics, not throw them to the wind for pleasure. Those who WERE homosexual would be inferior, undeveloped humans, and thus die out due to the fact they could not possibly pass on their genetics through mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 You know you don't even start making sense in any of the fields you summoned, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xOriginalNinjax Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad You know you don't even start making sense in any of the fields you summoned, right ? Care to explain how? (not saying that rudely, more as one wanting information) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad You know you don't even start making sense in any of the fields you summoned, right ? Seriously...those are barely complete sentences, much less cogent thoughts... As for the issue at hand, the one thing everyone is overlooking... Sexual orientation is not treated in the same way as race or gender in determining a protected class... And not all private services are required by law to adhere to equal opportunity. Because this is a construction firm, I assume the claim is housing equity, but that itself would need to be proven... The majority of businesses have the right to refuse to work with anyone, on whatever basis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Narcosynthesis Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by King Kashue Seriously...those are barely complete sentences, much less cogent thoughts... As for the issue at hand, the one thing everyone is overlooking... Sexual orientation is not treated in the same way as race or gender in determining a protected class... And not all private services are required by law to adhere to equal opportunity. Because this is a construction firm, I assume the claim is housing equity, but that itself would need to be proven... The majority of businesses have the right to refuse to work with anyone, on whatever basis... I can see it in the future... Suing a company because they refuse to give you a job because you don't have the qualifications - hell thats discrimination against those not intelligent enough...David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bbl Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by xOriginalNinjax Ok, I'm going to come at this from as much of a secular, non-Christian stand-point as much as possible, and then go into Christianity if needed. This will be in sections, and we'll go over sections at a time, otherwise, it could end up a jumbled mess.If we say that man is evolving and evolved from a lower species, then we take all traits shown from that species. Homosexuality in the animal kingdom occurs, but is rare, and typically just because of frustration, not due to mating preference. Now, since it is SOMEWHAT in the animal kingdom, it is possible that humans maintained that through evolution, but evolution is about survival of the fittest. So, if mankind did evolve, and gained homosexuality, then it would be obvious that it would eventually evolve out of us, due to those who are homosexual cannot survive past one generation. So, either homosexuals need to learn to homogenously reproduce, or they will be out evolved. I believe that it is a CHOICE from this, because due to adaptation and the need for survival from an evolution standpoint, all humans would have an innate desire to pass on their genetics, not throw them to the wind for pleasure. Those who WERE homosexual would be inferior, undeveloped humans, and thus die out due to the fact they could not possibly pass on their genetics through mating. Totally flawed argument, as there is no homosexual gene to "pass on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by xOriginalNinjax Care to explain how? (not saying that rudely, more as one wanting information) Just a few remarks. There would be many more to make, especially regarding logics and development methods. You consider evolution and survival at the individual level. It makes no sense especially when it comes to social animals.Evolution occurs within groups and not all the members of a given group have to reproduce to allow the evolution of the group as a whole. It doesn't make unreproducing members worthless. You also link homosexuality strictly to a genetic trait and as of today, there is no support for this hypothesis. Culture is believed to play an important role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xOriginalNinjax Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad Just a few remarks. There would be many more to make, especially regarding logics and development methods.You consider evolution and survival at the individual level. It makes no sense especially when it comes to social animals.Evolution occurs within groups and not all the members of a given group have to reproduce to allow the evolution of the group as a whole. It doesn't make unreproducing members worthless.You also link homosexuality strictly to a genetic trait and as of today, there is no support for this hypothesis. Culture is believed to play an important role. Snip 1:Understandable as I'm a freshman in college. And thank you, I do like to know what I need to work on. Snip 2:True and not. You won't find an entire group evolving simultaneously due to cellular development and all not occuring at the same rate. So you'd have to have people evolve one by one and form a new group, and to carry on those evolved traits, they'd have to reproduce. Snip 3:If there is NOT genetic traits and CULTURE is part of it, then it is a choice. Even if it's not your OWN choice, culture can say that it is, but then it is STILL a choice, and not something inherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by xOriginalNinjax Snip 2:True and not. You won't find an entire group evolving simultaneously due to cellular development and all not occuring at the same rate. So you'd have to have people evolve one by one and form a new group, and to carry on those evolved traits, they'd have to reproduce.This is NOT how evolution works. We talk about a gene pool for a reason. Now, since you seem to prefer this logic maybe you should just stick to it. Snip 3:If there is NOT genetic traits and CULTURE is part of it, then it is a choice. Even if it's not your OWN choice, culture can say that it is, but then it is STILL a choice, and not something inherent. Nothing's black or white, especially in the field of behaviors. They never have a single origin or reason.Humanity is the result of culture at least as much as which of biology. Most of our typically human skills and traits never show for individual who were raised out of it (check for studies on feral children if you have a moment).You don't choose your 2000+ yo cultural background, just like you don't choose your genes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad You don't choose your 2000+ yo cultural background, just like you don't choose your genes. Awesome. So, racist people don't have to worry about not trying to be racist if their culture says it's ok, right? I mean, since being raised in a culture that says something is ok means it isn't a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by MrJoshua Awesome. So, racist people don't have to worry about not trying to be racist if their culture says it's ok, right? I mean, since being raised in a culture that says something is ok means it isn't a choice.Racism is perfectly fine until your cultural and social background states it's not.Which is exactly what happened to ours.It only becomes an issue when somebody raises it and the reason it gets raised has always been linked to morality and society.In the last centuries we've developped different tools to guide us though, mostly related to science. If 2000 years of judeo-christianism didn't teach us that homosexuality is wrong, there would be no issue of this kind. The same way, raping your neighboor could be considered perfectly acceptable if we had been taught so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad Racism is perfectly fine until your cultural and social background states it's not.Which is exactly what happened to ours.It only becomes an issue when somebody raises it and the reason it gets raised has always been linked to morality and society.In the last centuries we've developped different tools to guide us though, mostly related to science. If 2000 years of judeo-christianism didn't teach us that homosexuality is wrong, there would be no issue of this kind.The same way, raping your neighboor could be considered perfectly acceptable if we had been taught so. That's a compelling moral philosophy... It's just a shame you're presenting it as axiomatic fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 You think ?Well, it is axiomatic for me.But I'll be glad to read you antithesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Banta Posted October 23, 2006 Members Share Posted October 23, 2006 Originally posted by i_wanna_les_paul Tolerance is a double-edged sword. On every tolerance issue, there's someone not tolerating someone elses's so-called 'intolerance.'$.02Dustin +1Silliness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted October 24, 2006 Members Share Posted October 24, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad You think ? Well, it is axiomatic for me. A implicit declaration of a belief in relativistic truth...You're quite the master of the assumed premise, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted October 24, 2006 Members Share Posted October 24, 2006 No, really. You find my comment biased of flawed ? I thought it was pretty fair and realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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