Members bassman1956 Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 I am alone. So yes, I have no problem with your spouse stripping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fretless Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 So let's say your family is broke and your spouse is willing and able to work as a stipper for decent money. Would you be cool with it? will she show us her butt hole for a dollar ? checks pocket change :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 I'm not gonna try to change her. If I disagree with what she's doing I will tell her. If she stands with her choice I won't say a thing about it. If I can't stand it then I shall leave.If he can't stand it, then he will leave.The only difference between that and "I can't stand it, I order you not to strip" is that Jazzy's way is an attempt to hide the order under a facade of "letting her choose".If you give her an order (which, again, no one has suggested), she still has a choice: She can leave you.So, the situation in the "can't stand it" hypothetical is one way she leaves, one way you leave. Couching it as "I wouldn't order her, I'd just leave" is an attempt (a failing attempt) to pretend it's not about "forcing her to make decisions she doesn't want to make" when it clearly is (since when is blackmail anything but? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 I don't think Jazz Ad said anywhere that if his spouse took off her clothes for money he'd definitely leave.Didn't sound to me like he was referring to stripping in particular. Rather, he seemed to be applying it to anything with which he disagrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sugarskull Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 View Poll Results: Would you let your spouse strip if the fam needed the income? Jazzy is responding to this. So let's say your family is broke and your spouse is willing and able to work as a stipper for decent money. Would you be cool with it? t3ch and KK are responding to this I do believe. Hence the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 t3ch and KK are responding to this I do believe. Hence the confusion. I was originally responding to Jazzy's statement that what his spouse did was none of his business (which, again, if what she's doing isn't partially your business, in what way is she your spouse? Partners share responsibilities and have an interest in shared goals, that's the definition of "partner"). At this point, I'm responding to the "I'd let her, but I'd leave her" hypothetical and the fact I can't see how that's substantively any different than the position he's been criticizing the entire thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrustin Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Let's turn a funny, lighthearted thread into an all out battle. Great job, KK. Or should I say, Kewl story, bro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Onkel Bob Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Hell I'd let her strip even if we didn't really need the income. Easy to say when you're single though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Onkel Bob Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 At this point, I'm responding to the "I'd let her, but I'd leave her" hypothetical and the fact I can't see how that's substantively any different than the position he's been criticizing the entire thread... No certainties anywhere in what Jazzy is saying. Should be "I'd let her, but I might leave her" in your quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassment zombie Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Except no one talking with Jazzy has suggested ordering someone not to do it (as has already been pointed out multiple times).And Jazzy didn't just say "he'd let her know", he said "he'd let her know and then leave if she did it and he couldn't stand it". What's the difference between ordering someone and blackmailing them? Whether you say "I won't let my wife strip" or "I would tell her I don't like her stripping and leave her if she did it", you're still attempting to force a behavior she doesn't want"If you do it, you're no longer my wife" is saying "I won't stand for my wife doing it", and putting one forward as "allowing her to make her own choices" and the other as "forcing her into something she doesn't want" is just bollocks. In the first one you're saying "Do what I want and if you don't, you can leave" and in the second you're saying "Do what I want and if you don't, I will leave"; both are forcing behavior under threat of the relationship ending. Who does the leaving is irrelevant. KK, I believe I share Jazz Ad's perspective, and while I might be wrong, I think there's a piece you're missing. Its about the process. Its about respecting or allowing another to have/hold whatever perspective or preference that they may have, and engaging with them in a way which allows for them to have/hold that perspective, but still communicating your displeasure, and ultimately your choice. If I understand him correctly, its the following: He feels that he does not have the right to tell his partner what to do, and if he does not like something that she chooses, he may or will communicate it to her. If she continues to do or engage in said behavior, despite the fact that its been communicated to her that he is very displeased by it, it would then be his choice to terminate the relationship rather than order that she alter her behavior. I think he would find it objectionable to order his partner to change her behavior. The initial post/poll stated 'would you let your...', which is why I voted BOALG. I agree with Jazz Ad that I find it objectionable to imagine allowing or dis-allowing a partner to engage in any behavior - no matter how abhorrent. I don't feel that I have the right to order, allow or prevent anyone from engaging in any behavior whatsoever. My perspective is that I will inform my partner (or anyone else) that I don't want them to do said behavior, it makes me feel this, that or the other, and if they choose to engage in said behavior, it will result in me choosing to do x,y or z. I think some behaviors/actions would result in me choosing to terminate a relationship outright and immediately without a request for modification. I don't think I did a very good job expressing myself here, but I hope its cogent. I get the impression that Jazz Ad may feel quite like I do on this subject. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that some here have gotten quite irritated or are reacting rather personally to things Jazz Ad expressed about how he views this. I don't quite get it, because he is simply sharing his perspective and how he frames it. I didn't get the impression at all that he is stating that others must share his perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 If it's what she wants to do, I have nothing to say about it. She does whatever she wants. There's nothing but certainty there. He put forward the idea that any attempt to force behavior through an order was unacceptable. However, he later put forth a potential situation where that's exactly what he's doing. If any attempt to force behavior is wrong, then there is no possible situation where it's right, no matter how he phrases it. That he's couching it as "his decision" to leave doesn't substantively change things (i.e., he condemns an order, which is a positive ultimatum, and then suggests blackmail, which is a negative one; in both cases it remains an ultimatum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingeringam Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Married? No, if I have to bang you and only you the rest of my life, then you can keep your shirt on. GF? Yes, odds are we'll probably part ways sooner or later, so do what you please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 If she continues to do or engage in said behavior, despite the fact that its been communicated to her that he is very displeased by it, it would then be his choice to terminate the relationship rather than request that she alter her behavior. I think he would find it objectionable to request his partner to change her behavior. Except that's exactly what he's doing. "I don't like it and if you continue, I'm leaving" is absolute an attempt to change her behavior. Acting like she's not being asked to change her behavior, just because he's careful with his phrasing, is ridiculous. If someone said "Hey, this totally isn't me telling you to stop doing that, but if you don't, I'll end the relationship", would you believe they weren't trying to influence your behavior? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassment zombie Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Except that's exactly what he's doing."I don't like it and if you continue, I'm leaving" is absolute an attempt to change her behavior. Acting like she's not being asked to change her behavior, just because he's careful with his phrasing, is ridiculous.If someone said "Hey, this totally isn't me telling you to stop doing that, but if you don't, I'll end the relationship", would you believe they weren't trying to influence your behavior? Really? KK, I completely disagree. The fact that one communicates to another that they are very hurt, displeased whatever in a behavior, and they will choose to leave if it continues, is not at all trying to change their behavior. Its communicating boundaries and needs and letting the partner know that they cannot continue if blah blah blah continues to happen. Yes, the person wants and hopes that the other chooses not to engage in said behavior again, but it is very discretely different from ordering (edit - telling) someone to change a behavior. Its communicating boundaries. I completely agree with this perspective. I want my partner to do whatever they choose or want to do. And if my personal feelings get hurt in the process of them excercising their chosen free will, then its entirely my prerogative to communicate my feelings, make boundaries clear, and choose to leave if said boundaries are violated. Its about me, not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members P1gg1e Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Man I thought this thread was cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassment zombie Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Man I thought this thread was cool I take full responsibility for my part in the de-cool-ination.Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 KK, I completely disagree. The fact that one communicates to another that they are very hurt, displeased whatever in a behavior, and they will choose to leave if it continues, is not at all trying to change their behavior. Not at all? Seriously? Then what's the point of telling them, just to share? I'm going to be honest, the claim that it's "not at all" about getting that person to change their behavior seems ridiculous to the point of outright lying. You want them to stop doing the thing that makes you upset, that's why you're telling them. You're hoping they're concerned enough about your feelings that they'll stop doing it...otherwise, what possible point is there to telling them other than to hear yourself say the words? Its communicating boundaries and needs and letting the partner know that they cannot continue if blah blah blah continues to happen. Yes, the person wants and hopes that the other chooses not to engage in said behavior again, but it is very discretely different from ordering or even asking someone to change a behavior. Its communicating boundaries. Ah, so it is at least partly about getting them to change their behavior...So much clearer now... That "discrete difference" between "stop or get out" and "stop or I'll leave", seems so discrete it seems to be nothing more than a more pleasant way of stating a demand... As for the difference between "I don't like this and I will leave if you do it" and requesting "Would you please stop this behavior, it's important to me?", the difference is the first one is blackmail and the second is actually communicating a clear boundary. I'm glad my friends just say "Hey, I feel upset about this behavior, would you please address it for me?" instead of "Hey, if you keep doing that, I'm no longer your friend"...Setting boundaries through threatening consequences isn't something I'd want out of any friend, much less a spouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingeringam Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Man I thought this thread was cool Serious thread is serous:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thrustin Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 There isn't an image to be searched that expresses my disappointment in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassment zombie Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Not at all? Seriously? Then what's the point of telling them, just to share? I'm going to be honest, the claim that it's "not at all" about getting that person to change their behavior seems ridiculous to the point of outright lying. You want them to stop doing the thing that makes you upset, that's why you're telling them. You're hoping they're concerned enough about your feelings that they'll stop doing it...otherwise, what possible point is there to telling them other than to hear yourself say the words? Ah, so it is about getting them to change their behavior...So much clearer now...:poke: That "discrete difference" between "stop or get out" and "stop or I'll leave", is so discrete it seems to be nothing more than a more pleasant way of stating a demand... As for the difference between "I don't like this and I will leave if you do it" and requesting "Would you please stop this behavior, it's important to me?", the difference is the first one is blackmail and the second is actually communicating a clear boundary. I'm glad my friends just say "Hey, I feel upset about this behavior, would you please address it for me?" instead of "Hey, if you keep doing that, I'm no longer your friend"...Setting boundaries through threatening consequences isn't something I'd want out of any friend, much less a spouse. I'm not very good at doing this multi-part response stuff. Additionally, I don't have nearly the patience and diligence that is required to do a good job with participating fully in this medium. Sorry. The point is to communicate boundaries and needs. Its about process - not results. I choose to live my life with the goal that I participate and engage in certain ways. Communicating boundaries is not a threat, from my perspective. I feel its actually being very respectful of another's will and self-directiveness. "Babe, I'm crushed. I can't go on if you're not willing to stop this and address the problems by doing a,b,c...etc." I wish I had more patience to continue this response. It's Saturday night, and my girlfriend is waiting for me to join her to watch a movie. Sorry. I probably shouldn't have participated in the first place. Cheers man - another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members King Kashue Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Communicating boundaries is not a threat, from my perspective. If the communication of the boundary becomes an ultimatum, how is it not? An ultimatum can't be anything but a threat. "I'll leave if you don't stop" vs. "I feel that I can't continue to be with you when you engage in this behavior, would you please stop?" Which one is a threat and which one is communicating a boundary? Which one is forcing them to make a choice and which one is asking them to make a choice? And in any case, my initial statement to Jazzy addressed the inconsistency between his two statements. Both you and I recognize that in either case, there is a desire for a change in the other person's behavior. Jazzy said he had no stake in attempting that and then posited a situation in which he was inherently attempting that. That's what I was addressing. Enjoy the movie, I'm going bowling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members s4001 Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 KK, I completely disagree.The fact that one communicates to another that they are very hurt, displeased whatever in a behavior, and they will choose to leave if it continues, is not at all trying to change their behavior. Its communicating boundaries and needs....It's an ultimatum, plain and simple. There's very little difference between what Jazzy has said and telling the partner not to engage in a behavior. Again, the only difference between the two is one is authoritarian and the other is passive aggressive -- threatening to take your marbles and go home is still an ultimatum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zamfir Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 Hey, you brought the car thing up... But now that I've introduced the elephant in the room, HCBF expects a chortle. Wanna tell the story? Because it IS funny, and I don't remember all the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezstep Posted November 22, 2009 Members Share Posted November 22, 2009 I started reading this thread before my gig, and it has grown quite a bit while I have been gone. This is all I have to say: If my wife decided that she would ____(insert activity)____, there is pretty much nothing I could do to stop her. Very strong will. Of course, that is one reason I married her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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