Singing out of key

[cherri]

 

Agree, but all concerts and our vocal heroes use them now.

 

 

I wouldn't call them heroes ... I don't admire anyone who uses pitch correction live. It's like a football player using a robot arm to throw passes or a tennis player using laser sights to aim their racket. Or a guitar player using tons of modeling equipment and not taking the time to learn how to create true tones.

 

Saying "everybody does it" does not legitimize it.

[bengal3001]

 

I wouldn't call them heroes ... I don't admire anyone who uses pitch correction live. It's like a football player using a robot arm to throw passes or a tennis player using laser sights to aim their racket. Or a guitar player using tons of modeling equipment and not taking the time to learn how to create true tones. Saying "everybody does it" does not legitimize it.

 

 

There is something to that, in principle, I agree. However, I'd say this is a bit of idealization of art. Art, as well as life itself has its blemishes. If it's a flat note in a singer's voice or out of rhythm note in a guitar improv (you can find lots of those on older records of giants such as David Gilmour, Carlos Santana and Kirk Hammet. They mostly go unnoticed, though. Only Zack Wylde plays like a friggin' sequencer with time quantization turned on).

And that is ok, that what makes the performance more "human". But there is a fine line between "human" and "way off". Very fine. So if you accidentally cross that line (I'm not talking about live but mostly studio recorded performances), it may be ok to fix this while employing the latest technology. After all, you can EQ the mix so that the imperfections will be concealed, so why not use a little bit of pitch correction here and there? You'll say it's not the same thing, and you will be right. However both are technological solutions to the problem.

And after all, good performance isn't constituted only of a sequence of notes sung in key. There is also emotion, feel, groove, etc. And it cannot be tweaked with Melodyne.

And sometimes timing is a constraint. You may have to record a single now, not in three years after you master the finest nuances of vocal performance. So record it, pitch correct it, get famous (or whatever), and in the meanwhile keep practicing. In three years you will be both famous and good at what you do.

[isaac42]

 

Xactly as I would say it! There is also a guy who studied the life, background and genes of great violin virtouses and found 1 common thing about their success: They all had practiced 10 000 hours on their instrument. This is 100% inline with my theories on talent vs practice. I also say that skill = focus * practice. By that I mean those who are seen as talents are more focused, or dedicated. For a person to be real great he/she need to have all the drive to sit thousands of hours with the instrument, and by that time you have fine tuned your training skills and your focus is much better. You've also learned how to be more effective and practice what needs practice. By that time it don't matter if you were seen as a talent after 100 hours or you thought you were impossible to improve. Time and patience have done it for you. Those are very few. I have never heard about or met any of that kind. I have heard people claiming they are, but those have not to my knowledge tried to solve their problem. I have also talked to many vocal teacher and none of them had a case of real tone deaf pupils. They all learned in the end. You just can't go around and claiming to be tone deaf if you sing out of key. The only people being diagnosed true tone deaf in a medical sense are those who speak in a complete monotone voice without altering pitch. Those are very rare. As in one in a million.

 

 

I'm sure they are.

 

I was talking with my former voice teacher about a woman I know, a former student of his. Of her he said, "I used to think that I could teach anybody to sing. Now, I'm not so sure." This is a man with over five decades of experience in opera, musical theater and teaching. In all that time, he found one. And even she may not be tone deaf, but he couldn't teach her to sing.

[isaac42]

 

I wouldn't call them heroes ... I don't admire anyone who uses pitch correction live. It's like a football player using a robot arm to throw passes or a tennis player using laser sights to aim their racket. Or a guitar player using tons of modeling equipment and not taking the time to learn how to create true tones. Saying "everybody does it" does not legitimize it.

 

 

Still, it's possible that you currently admire someone who does it, but that you don't know does.

 

In theory, I agree completely. In practice, things get more complicated.

[Andrew JD]

Well, I know the Police just went out with TC Helicon VoicePro's in their FOH. Toto rolled out with a VoiceDoubler and a VoiceLive (for "background vocal support").

 

I was watching the new Avenged Sevenfold DVD the other day and noticed it all over the vocals, lead and back-up, (especially back-up).

 

With no doubt, every pop band out there now has racks filled with VoicePro's and Pro Tools Venue running Melodyne live...

[stevesherbert]

i find i can only sing properly using my full aka LOUD voice. it has to come from the gut or else it sounds like crap. i also like to be really loud in my monitors. if i can't hear myself, how can i possibly be in key? one tip i learned was: when you want to sing high, think low and push from the bottom of your diaphragm. work on this muscle and practice your melodies enough and you'll see steady improvement. if your abs (instead of your throat) hurt, you're on the right track. keep your throat moist (i find beer does the trick for me) and stop as soon as anything starts to hurt, unless you're on stage!

[Jersey Jack]

ikeep your throat moist (i find beer does the trick for me)

 

[AzraelsWings]

Thanks man. Sounds interesting, though I'm not sure it will help 100%. For example, one of my problems are short notes - it takes time (a fraction of a second) for me to hit the key, so short notes are usually over before I understand that there's something wrong Notes that are very long are also a problem, start is ok, but then my voice trembles a bit and slides out of key. But this is something that I think can be fixed by the technique you've proposed.

 

Regarding your problem with short notes, try this:

 

1. Play a note on a keyboard or (well tuned) guitar.

2. Stop the note. Silence.

3. Recall the note mentally.

4. Sing the note.

5. Play the note again, check your pitch.

 

Do not 'swoop' your voice up to the tone. If you're off, stop singing, and repeat the process. The purpose of this exercise is to train yourself to hit the note, on pitch, initially.

 

You'll find that your pitch will be helped by good breath support, practice, and confidence. If you aren't relaxed, you're sure to miss.

 

You might want to invest in lessons with a qualified teacher who respects your style tastes. (In other words, if the person only teaches opera, find someone else.)

 

You may also want to pick up a self-instruction course—to be used independently from, or in conjunction with, said teacher. I personally like Jeannie Deva's The Contemporary Vocalist. Others you may have heard of include Brett Manning—whose program, in my experience and opinion, is price gouge rather devoid of helpful content—and Seth Riggs—whose program I cannot speak to.

 

In the meantime, this is a playlist with a useful daily warm-up.

 

Also, embrace every part of your voice. Regardless of whether or not you plan on using head voice or falsetto in performance, practicing throughout your entire range will open up the overtones for those parts you do choose to use.

[Samilyn]

 

Yeah, what happened to old heroes? When people used to sing from the heart? Can't imagine Jimi or Elvis or Ella or Janis lip syncing away to a phonogram.

 

 

+1

[AzraelsWings]

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=82E6C50CD56A1C21

[cherri]

 

Still, it's possible that you currently admire someone who does it, but that you don't know does.

I can usually hear it. I'm the person who, when watching a commercial or documentary, can identify the narrator's voice.

 

Processing music through software is standard procedure these days, it's not going away. I can appreciate the effort, skill and talent to use it well.

 

But I don't have to like it. I don't even like to hear an artist singing their own background vocals, and that's been going on for ever. I want to hear true four part harmony by four different voices, not overdubs. I want to hear the guitar players' talent, not his effects.

 

Last weekend two of the acts at our fundraiser used computers, backing tracks, and other effects. It was very cool to see how they worked the equipment live and the variety of music they were able to create on the fly.

 

I will always be a throwback, and will always prefer unadulterated, unaltered, unmodified, true voices.

[Bajazz]

I am all about back to the basics. I gig with a BOSE PAS and clean flat headset mic in the mix with clean acoustic guitar and all clean signal, flat EQ, no fx, no reverb etc....

 

This has helped me to be known as a no Bull{censored} good singer. There are primmadonnas that won't sing a note without their sound man and there's people like me that are known to deliver not matter what.

 

I do AC/DC acoustic and people dance on the tables, now that's rock'n'roll!!

 

Still I respect people using fx and stuff. But those using pitch correction or playback I can't respect as musicians, cause they aren't able to make those sounds in a natural way. No one is gonna do the job in convincing me that a pitch correction or playback is a natural way to make music!!

[strat2]

I apologize for not reading all the posts, and will throw in my 2 cents..

 

 

If you are a born ringer for singing ,than you've got in nailed down already so that's good.

 

But sounds like this is not the case so :

 

You need to know the notes of the melody, if you can't pick them out by just listening to them , an instrument can help.

Pick out every single note that is in the melody line for line and practice on 3 or four etc notes at a time of those notes in the melody till you get it, then move to the next line.

 

If you can't use an instrument, what I have done in the past is listen to

each word in a line, (often one word can have 2 , 3 or 5+ different notes) and go over it 3 or 4 or 50 times (literally) , till I'm sure I have the lines down.

 

There were not any short cuts for me. ....

 

I'm guessing you're not looking to be a music major, but if you understood/understand intervals, and some basic theory, that would help as well, + once you understand the scales that are used for your tunes you can make variations to personalize as you choose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

[GreenAsJade]

One thing - *just* practice is not enough. Singing a tune over and over again out of key is not going to help it get in key.

 

And my own experience is that I personally couldn't hear the approx 1/4 tone that I was always flat.

 

Until I started recording. I would sing something, it sounds OK to me, then play it back and yuck.

 

Now I am trying "Sing And See", it seems to help a lot. I can _while_ I'm singing see if I'm off and correct.

 

GaJ

[AzraelsWings]

 

One thing - *just* practice is not enough. Singing a tune over and over again out of key is not going to help it get in key. And my own experience is that I personally couldn't hear the approx 1/4 tone that I was always flat. Until I started recording. I would sing something, it sounds OK to me, then play it back and yuck. Now I am trying "Sing And See", it seems to help a lot. I can _while_ I'm singing see if I'm off and correct. GaJ

 

 

I just googled Sing and See, that good?

[Roby Lee]

do we make music for other musicians and singers,or the mass public that dont know the difference in any of it,lol,I see alot of stuff that sells,but wouldnt buy it myself anyway,but those who did it still have the jack now,

wonder if mine is in key,I cant tell,

 

 

http://www.myspace.com/window100

[Jealousblues]

True, true...except for Elvis. Don't tell me you can't imagine the possiblility of a post-70s-era Elvis lip-syching away.

 

i dissagree, if anything it would be backwords.

 

i could imagine an early 60's movie era Elvis lip syncing and dancing away...

 

but 70's elvis was a bad, bad mother{censored}er when it came to singing, and he really worked on bettering himself too. He was great when he was young but he was eons better when he was old, and the crazy guy would go home and make get the band together and sing for hours at 4AM-- no way would he lip sync at that point.

 

maybe if he lost it at some point though.

[blue2blue]

Howdy, all... my first post in this forum... though I feel like I have something invested here, already, since I was one of those lobbying to get a singer's forum started. (Mostly because I mod the Songwriting Forum here and we were hosting some threads on singing there because there didn't seem to be anywhere for singers to go at the time.)

 

 

Anyhow... though I've been happily blasting away for decades, used to play a lot of live shows (mostly as a solo) and used to usually sing with results in my rather broad comfort zone, lately I've been wrestling with improving my pitch control. I've wanted to use a less colored, more open voice as well as move into other areas of my wide but somewhat undisciplined range.

 

There were so many issues raised here -- and many good ideas...

 

 

A couple things, first off: latency when monitoring during recording.

 

-- It's not really necessary. Most contemporary audio interfaces have some sort of zero or near-zero latency 'direct monitoring' function that means the signal does not have to be monitored through the DAW but, rather, the live monitor can be taken 'directly' from the device. When that's analog, there's no latency (per standard definition); if the direct monitoring is digital, there will be around 2 milliseconds delay -- which is longer than it sounds like but which most folks should have little problem with.

 

Where people get into trouble is feeling like they need/want reverb on their vocal monitor (one of the few subjects not raised here, I think, but a topic of interest, since for some years I've monitored dry and only recently gone back to occasionally trying 'wet' monitoring -- I'm not sure the results have been that good but I'm still not decided). And, unless you have an interface with a built in reverb or an outboard unit and you're monitoring through a mixer, you may be out of luck there, true enough. Still, if I had choose between 5 or more milliseconds of latency (typical for through CPU monitoring) or no reverb -- I'd take no reverb every time.

 

 

Lessons -- a few folks have suggested that the right teacher teaching the right style is all-important. I could not agree more, if one goes that route. I've heard some good natural singers totally mess themselves up by putting themselves under the control of the wrong vocal instructor.

 

 

Pitch correction -- I don't know how many rock acts are using it live. (And, frankly, I mostly don't care because I'm never going to pay attention to those losers, anyhow.) Most of the real bimbos are simply lip-synching, since you sort of have to be able to kind of sing in order to get auto-pitch correction to come out ok live.

 

I do know there's that horrorific YouTube clip of John Mayer with auto-mode Auto-Tune on his voice (oddly, since he doesn't strike me as a horrible singer in the first place) and, while it's not quite Billy Joel-at-the-Superbowl, it's a thorough embarrassment. Or it should be. How could something like that happen? And it looks like a professional vidding -- how could it have been released? Do they think no one can hear that robo-warble on the dude's voice? Pathetic.

 

That said, in the studio, robo-tuning is a huge time saver. I admire those who don't need it; I admire the spirit of those who don't want it. But it can save a lot of time and it can save an otherwise acceptable vocal -- when used with care and discretion.

 

But, that said, I can only tolerate robo-tuning when I can't hear it in action. Aside from tuning-as-effect (eg, T-Pain), where it really stands out is on vocals that are supposedly 'normal' but where the robo-birdies appear every time the singer does any gliss or legato stuff. And normally that is simple carelessness or cluelessness on the part of whoever is doing the vocal editing. But apparently that careless/clueless thing is pandemic. You can barely listen to 15 minutes of Nashville pop without hearing nasty robo-tuning artifacts all over what should be nice, natural sounding vocals. (Most of those guys and gals are bums, anyhow, but every now and then someone good gets their vocals mangled; I stumbled on this Austin songwriter guy named Slaid Cleaves, loved his first album but then, with his second album in 2000, the A-T started getting used and they really mangled it. There are some utterly hideous artifacts. The guy's no Caruso, but he's got a decent voice. The first album was fine. But, ironically, as the budgets got biger and the sidemen got glitzier, the robo-tuning got cranked up... it's truly disgracefully clumsy.

 

 

With regard to using vocal-tuning to analyze and learn: I've been spending some time using the vocal tuner plug (Roland V-Vocal) that came with my version of Sonar Producer (v.6) and really trying to A) learn where I'm going wrong on my singing and B) how to fix it in an emergency (you know, too lazy to punch in -- j/k... kinda).

 

The Sing and See software looks interesting -- I guess it's real time. That would be an advantage over the software I have, but it seems that I can probably use my chromatic tuner and the non-realtime info I get from dropping my vocal tracks into the vocal-tuner software grid-- which looks much like the screenshot from Sing and See, actually. I've been looking at the pitch movement of my voice and trying to correlate what sounds as I want with what doesn't -- and I'm really starting to get an intellectual grasp of what's going wrong.

 

Interestingly, there are a couple things... not the least of which is inconsistent singing of melodies -- inconsistent note choices.

 

I was watching a pretty accomplished jazz vocalist (he's actually a very accomplished jazz guitarist) A-T his own vocal at a buddy's studio recently and I was amazed at how many times he stopped and said, Wrong note. And then he'd find the note on a nearby guitar to make sure and move the phrase up to that note, moving any legato or gliss pitch movement along with it. (Robo-birdies/warbling most often comes from abrupt shifts and one of the danger zones is pitch movement.) When A-T or other vocal tuners are in auto mode, sometimes the mayhem gets nasty as they move one note this way and another note that way.

 

Anyhow, thinking about that observation, I paid more attention to the notes I'd been singing in different sections of the song. And I found that I would sometimes sing a melody one way, and sometimes another. Not necessarily bad pitch but simply the wrong note. But, often enough, singing the wrong note would also be coupled with some pitchiness. Not always.

 

______________

 

 

And, finally, back to tone deaf...

 

I always loved music. But I could never quite learn how to play (my family had a small console organ and I saved up and bought a cheap guitar when I was 13) as a kid. I was certified as "absolutely without any musical talent whatsoever" by two different music educators. (It was nasty at the time but I understand they were simply trying to save my parents and/or the school district money as well as be able to work with kids who could hit the ground running.)

 

I was great at identifying timbres of instruments, though. In a 7th grade music appreciation course, I was able to identify all the instruments of the orchestra but three, IIRC. (Contrabassoon... I'll never miss that one again. )

 

But tuning my guitar? Ha!

 

They didn't have affordable tuners when I was a kid (in fact, I didn't even know such a thing existed), so it was me and the pitch pipe. Unfortunately, I could not 'translate' the pitch of the little reed pipe to the guitar. I could tune from another guitar. But even there, while I could suss out the much higher from the much lower -- when the pitches got close, I could never tell you which was higher and which was lower. It took forever to slowly learn how to tell them apart. Eventually, mind you, I got so I could tune a guitar by ear alone. (I memorized the sound and pitch of my tuning fork and could 'play it back' -- unfortunately, I started using a half-step drop tuning on all my guitars a few years back for 'singing convenience' as my voice seemed more natural a half step down. I can still 'hear' the A-fork in my mind, but then I have to transpose it down a step in my head... maybe I should try to find an Ab fork or something. )

 

Anyhow, there may well be people with diminished function in the brain circuitry devoted to pitch issues. Certainly, my personal history and the contrast between my ability to recognize complex timbres and my early inability to sort out pitches seems to indicate some sort of dysjunction.

 

 

Anyhow... sorry to prattle on... that's what happens when you try to catch up with 30 or 40 posts in an ongoing thread about something you've been wrestling with, I guess.

 

[Bajazz]

I've tried "Sing and See", and it's OK. The same is using a tuner and trying to center the needle. Much better is to use those Playstation games, Singstar and Rockband. You'll do the same exercises, only on actual songs and realistic intervals and phrasing. IMO, it's much more fun and you train much more than pitch accuracy.

 

About the serious image thing, forget it! I got Singstar when it came out just for playing video games. When I played with it for some months I found lot's of thing in my technique have improved. Make it fun!

[blue2blue]

 

 

Actually I was just watching the promo vid for Sing and See and, while it looks helpful in that it's real time, it raised an issue that just won't go away for me in discussions of pitch and harmony - -and that is the set of inherent compromises involved in jamming the round musical peg of truly harmonic pitch relationships in a given scale into the square hole of the 12 Tone Equal Temperament system.

 

 

It should come as little surprise that many of the best singers have traditionally come from harmony singing traditions.

 

Why?

 

Because they learn scales in terms of true harmony and harmonic context -- not the disharmonic but ever-practical and dependable intervals imposed by the 'necessary evil' of the Equal Temperament system.

 

 

Something like Sing and See is fine -- as long as the vocal coaches and teachers using it as a tool have the harmonic sophistication to realize that those handy little horizontal pitch lines could be as much as 16 cents or more 'out of tune' from the root.

 

The last thing we need to do is teach a dumbed down approach to pitch to a new generation of serious singers.

[paulmpianist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdB_KdtJJQ

 

I can hear some bad pitch in this song, but I was just wondering if those high notes are going to make it eventually. Also... its a vid I made after I had the song about 3 days or so and I didn't even have the lyrics down. I'm going to try another vid soon.

thanks if anybody has a comment.

 

 

 

http://cdbaby.com/cd/paulmulcahy2

[GreenAsJade]

I just googled Sing and See, that good?

 

An update - I've used it some more now, and yes I think it's good.

 

It's no-frills, just what you need: a line going along showing you

what pitch you're singing, real time, in relation to the notes of the scale.

 

 

The picture of _me_ singing looks nothing like the above :S

 

But it's visibly improving... that's gotta be good.

 

GaJ

[Mamma Cat]

Of course, there's are people who are plain tone deaf and cannot be helped (or can, but it would take a decade just to make them hear that they are our of tune). I doubt that the OP is one of those, since he is aware of a false note when he produces one. It's perfectly normal among people with normal pitch.

But there is something that is often disregarded when talking about being off-key. In addition to everything written in this thread so far, your mouth, teeth and nose are also responsible for how your tone comes out. You may have the correct tone in your head and you hear it coming out a bit off-key - that's because the air flow is not focused and your jaw and face bones do not provide proper support to the air coming out of your mouth. It comes out "loose" so to say. That doesn't mean your jaw should be stiff, only that it should model the tone properly.

[blue2blue]

I was just telling a classically trained singer friend of mine about this software (she's painfully aware of my own pitch challenges ) and we were talking about the fact that the grid is Equal Temperament only (and that the grids in all the vocal re-tuners [that I know of] are also ET- only) and she agreed that that may well promote bad pitching habits among singers unaware of the problems with ET intervals. She said, "Imagine the trouble they're going to have with 7ths." (As you probably know, the ET minor seventh can be seen, depending on context, as being as much as ~32 cents off the pure harmonic interval; major seventh, 12 cents off; minor 3rd and major 6th, 16 cents off, etc, etc.)