Please ourselves or please the crowd?

[squealie]

Originally posted by Bozak Why not both? Have people become so watered down in there musical taste that only cheesy cover bands are acceptable? Is it so bad for a band to try and get people into something else besides Brown Eyed Girl? I think the whole idea of bands feeling like they have to be inside the box to be an acceptable live act sucks and is very telling.

 

 

It totally depends on the venue.

 

When we go up with 4 other bands, for no money, we play OUR music. If we're gonna care about something, it's gonna be our stuff. And so far, we've torn the house down on those occasions.

 

But when we gotta entertain folks all night, we play 'home run hitters' (wide-appeal covers) as much as we can stand, while still getting in plenty of our material. Granted, we don't play Brown Eyed Girl, or Mustang Sally.... we'll play Sweet Child o' Mine, and Still of the Night. But make no mistake, there aint no difference. A crowd pleasing cover, is just that. You just gotta pick the right ones for the folks that come to see you.

 

To the dudes at the gig with their arms crossed, rolling their eyes and worrying about how 'cheesy' I am... get the {censored} out of my show, I ain't enjoying you either.

[elbow]

Originally posted by rhat How about if some drunk shouted ,, i will pay you 1000 dollars in cash to play brown eyed girl or tupelo honey with three days to practice..... could you pull them off and hit them out of the park? rat

I would laugh with everyone else. But let's get hypothetical for a moment....

If he DID have $1K in cash, and threw it down for some brown-eyed girl, I would play the mufugga right there and he would dig it

Three days to practice I could hit damn near anything out of the park with that kinda time.

[BlueStrat]

I have been very fortunate that for the past 15 years I have been able to play what I want to, avoid playing what I don't want to, and people keep hiring me and paying me to do it. I just have a hard time putting any heart and soul into something I don't like or doesn't move me. So I'd have to say I play for myself first, and if people don't like it, they'll stop hiring me. If they ever do stop, I'll re-assess.

Having said that, I don't have anything against only-the-hits cover bands at all. I'm for any musician making as much money as they can, however they can. It's a great big world with all kinds of people, and there's room for all of it.

[Marcus Dahl]

i've always had the philosophy of give he crowd what they want and they'll let you play what you want. It depends on the night and how the crowd acts, but I do one I like or my guitar player likes every 3 or 4 songs unless everybody is into the dance number stuff. Then that's all we'll do for a whole set or do 2 sets in one till they are worn out.

[Fulham Fallout]

Originally posted by BlueStrat I have been very fortunate that for the past 15 years I have been able to play what I want to, avoid playing what I don't want to, and people keep hiring me and paying me to do it. I just have a hard time putting any heart and soul into something I don't like or doesn't move me. So I'd have to say I play for myself first, and if people don't like it, they'll stop hiring me. If they ever do stop, I'll re-assess. Having said that, I don't have anything against only-the-hits cover bands at all. I'm for any musician making as much money as they can, however they can. It's a great big world with all kinds of people, and there's room for all of it.

That makes a lot of sense.

First off - know your audience and, as far as possible, the expectations they will have of the evening. If it's a club where they expect to hear the hits, then you're going to have to play them.

In an originals band, the audience aren't expecting to hear the standards/hits, so of course you have plenty of freedom. In one of my bands we still have have debates about what songs are crowd pleasers and which are not. I'm very much of the opinion that we should play what we want as long as we believe that the material is all up to the standard that we've set. We have a couple of crowd pleasers that I'd like to phase out, because I don't think they're as good as the rest of material. In their day they were good, but we've developed as a band, and now to me they stand out as being weak. The rest of the band seem to like them on the basis that 'we've had some good comments about those songs'. Like Bluestrat, I can't get excited about playing songs that I don't like personally, and I would rather dump them and trust that we have always been able to write songs that audiences like, so we can replace them with something even better. I like the challenge to always come up with better material - that's why I play music in a nutshell.

[rhat]

Originally posted by elbow I would laugh with everyone else. But let's get hypothetical for a moment.... If he DID have $1K in cash, and threw it down for some brown-eyed girl, I would play the mufugga right there and he would dig it Three days to practice I could hit damn near anything out of the park with that kinda time.

I have no doubt that you could ,,, but then i am willing to bet that you are in the geezer club ,,,, nabbing a cover tune is a pretty cut and dried process. Do you think the average young original music band could do it? We both know its an easy song, but it does take solid vocals and some decent harmony to pull it off ..... This is what i see lacking in alot of original bands that i hear. It would take more than just you to hit it out of the park. Imagine trying to do it with three teenagers , in black baggy pants with their hair dyed black wearing dog chains that have been unwilling to play anything but original metal that you found at guitar center at 4pm with a import strat cranked up to ten with the distortion raging? That might be a safe 10,000 dollar bet for me. Another thing also is that that song has been played to death ,,,,, to hit it out of the park its got to be good. It been fun thowing this out there... hopfully its food for thought. Well its off to my retired geezer part time job......i have been working with a surveyer. Today we get to go survey a muck field lol. maybe i can save up a thousand dollars lol.

It should be fun riding the electra glide with my swampers on .... rat

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by squealie To the dudes at the gig with their arms crossed, rolling their eyes and worrying about how 'cheesy' I am... get the {censored} out of my show, I ain't enjoying you either.

Ha, no freaking kidding. And there is ALWAYS at least one of these nitwits at every show....

I know, I used to be one.

Then I grew up!

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by rhat I have no doubt that you could ,,, but then i am willing to bet that you are in the geezer club ,,,, nabbing a cover tune is a pretty cut and dried process. Do you think the average young original music band could do it?

That's a good point. Having been around plenty of "We don't have time for covers, we need to work on OUR music, man!" attitude, I still got to see glimpses of ineptness when it came to even the most simple of tunes to emulate. A big part of it seemed to come right back to attitude, like "Fine, I will do it but I am going to change it so much it will be barely recognizable".

[rhat]

Originally posted by vanlatte Ha, no freaking kidding. And there is ALWAYS at least one of these nitwits at every show.... I know, I used to be one. Then I grew up!

LOL>.. I know they were standing there 36 years ago ... what might amaze people is that they were the kids that were into hendrix and cream and deep purple. Bands that did that stuff then had, a hell of a time ever getting out of the basement.

Most people sent some time standing and watching .... alot of them were critics and alot of them said ,, hey i wanna learn to do that. interesting stuff .. rat

[mrcpro]

Originally posted by New Trail One of the guys even went so far as to say that he "would rather play to that one guy sitting in the back who gets it" rather than a bunch of dancing girls."

I'll throw a song to that guy in the back once in a while. Just make sure that there's really a guy in the back that wants to hear what you're doing.

Otherwise, I play to the people in front. Gotta work....

[bassred]

We've tailored our sets to keep the floor moving, but we did it on our terms. Instead of grabbing all the over-done-and-all-too-common songs, we've got songs that rock, that we like to play. We give the keyboard player his time to show whatever he wants during the solo of 'Twilight Zone' and if the crowd has been really responsive, we'll even give the drummer a solo (unheard of, I know, but last weekend the crowd was eating it up!) I don't get a time to shine on bass, but that's OK with me, I think I shine just laying down the foundation (and I sing lead on about 70% of the tunes) the point that we make when we are picking songs is to find stuff we are going to enjoy, if one member isn't 'feeling it' we'll can the tune, and put it on my Mp3 player as program music... So I'd have to say a good compromise. I've played plenty of tunes that had me sleeping, this project is about four dudes rockin' tunes that they like, which may just happen to keep the dancers happy too.

[MartinC]

I don't worry at all about what people want to hear-we just play the songs we know and that's it. We do a few covers which many people know, but because we like them, know them, and can do them well. The crazy thing is , sometimes I'll play a solo-maybe a bulerias, a sig, or some other flamenco number that no one can even tap their foot to (odd time sigs) and sometimes that gets a certain portion of the crowd that wasn't reacting before. It's like they recognize that something different is being offered and some do respond even if they don't even understand what it is. Cover bands and cover band gigs notwithstanding, I think if you play what you love, play well, and with passion, some people are going to respond. I agree if your playing a dance crowd, you've got to at least give them something to dance to.

[fishmanrod]

Be true to my art, or eat.

Tough call.

Mazlov's hiarchy of needs says you have to have a full belly waaay before you can become "self actualized", which is doing {censored} you love just for you. You also have a need for security just above basic physical needs. I guess one could call that audience acceptance, eh? I think most of us musicans would be pretty sad wanking in the basement forever...musical masturbation, in my opinion. Fun, but not the real deal.

I knew a band once who had two names. They went by Freedom Train and did all covers (heck they did Prince and all the girls LOVED IT) and they got good paying regular gigs. They also had another name (foreget what it was) and they did all originals. they got showcase gigs and had an album out, and were working on a deal.

So they ate their cake and had it too!

Cheers!

[RupertB]

Originally posted by BlueStrat I have been very fortunate that for the past 15 years I have been able to play what I want to, avoid playing what I don't want to, and people keep hiring me and paying me to do it. I just have a hard time putting any heart and soul into something I don't like or doesn't move me. So I'd have to say I play for myself first, and if people don't like it, they'll stop hiring me. If they ever do stop, I'll re-assess. Having said that, I don't have anything against only-the-hits cover bands at all. I'm for any musician making as much money as they can, however they can. It's a great big world with all kinds of people, and there's room for all of it.

+1 on all counts.

It seems to me the only way to have any staying power in this business is to find the place were the most people, both on & off the stage, are enjoying the music.

My (our) approach has always been:

1) To find the gems that DIDN'T get hammered to death on the radio. (ie: I Need to Know & American Girl instead of Refugee & Breakdown).

2) To have the "songs you know by heart" in our back pocket in case we need them.

I have friends who make a good deal more than I do (& I do pretty well) per gig to play dance, R&B, beach, & hits which they do exceptionally well. I think its great. I may even try it out someday but right now I'm having too much fun.

[Roy Brooks]

Originally posted by fishmanrod Be true to my art, or eat. Tough call. Mazlov's hiarchy of needs says you have to have a full belly waaay before you can become "self actualized", which is doing {censored} you love just for you. You also have a need for security just above basic physical needs. I guess one could call that audience acceptance, eh? I think most of us musicans would be pretty sad wanking in the basement forever...musical masturbation, in my opinion. Fun, but not the real deal. I knew a band once who had two names. They went by Freedom Train and did all covers (heck they did Prince and all the girls LOVED IT) and they got good paying regular gigs. They also had another name (foreget what it was) and they did all originals. they got showcase gigs and had an album out, and were working on a deal. So they ate their cake and had it too! Cheers!

 

 

That second paragraph is what I was trying to get at in my previous post.

 

If I am paid well I will play exactly what they want to hear. And if I am playing with folks I enjoy playing with then I will probably enjoy playing that stuff too. For awhile I played with a party band that played a whole bunch of tunes that I normally hardly ever listened to, though I had played many of the tunes before in other bands. I enjoyed every gig I played with them even though I wasn't playing my favorite music.

 

As long as I have been a musician I can't think of one single time when I was listening to and enjoying the popular music of the day, even during times when I was listening to music that was more popular than most of the stuff I listened to. Growing up in rural southeastern Alabama I did not have alot of folks around to play with so I learned how to fingerpick and I got to spend alot of time working on exactly the same {censored} I wanted to work on for my own pleasure and musical development.

 

But in 1979 I started playing in my first working band. They played country. And it was during a time that I couldn't stand country. But I learned their stuff anyway and actually got to be a pretty darn good country picker. The years I played in that band were a big learning experience for me. I also stole alot of licks from the pedal steel player. The pedal steel player also turned me on to King Crimson.

 

Most of the eighties I made a living on the road playing for the most part music I couldn't stand. But I got to travel around and see some interesting parts of the country. When I needed a break from that lifestyle and desired a steady paycheck and a desire to travel more extensively I joined the Navy.

 

Most of the nineties, after I got out of the Navy, I mainly played in blues bands. For awhile back in the day I really wanted to play in blues bands because I figured in a situation like that I would be free to improvise pretty much everything I played. Though I found quite a bit of the blues cats around here very narrowminded and somewhat elitist. But I wanted to keep gigging so I kept playing with them.

 

In 1999 I quit my last day job. I did a short tour to play some gigs in upstate New York with a blues band and then took a five year long gig with another blues band at a house gig playing several nights a week. Being single I lived pretty well on what I made. That house band played crowd pleasing blues with alot of schtick thrown in, {censored} that they did practically every night. Although there were lots of nights with really big crowds I was very glad to not be doing that gig when the club finally closed down. I have not been in touch with those folks since then.

 

For the past couple years I have freelanced pretty regularly with several different bands playing several different kinds of music. Playing a wide variety of stuff keeps me from getting bored and makes me keep my chops up in a plethora of styles. During that time I also took jazz classes and worked on jazz stuff on my own because that was an area of music I was not very familiar with. I also wrote a guitar method book.

 

I did find out that when I played in bands that played music other than what the crowd expected of us we generally had small crowds.

 

Now I am in the middle of getting moved in to a new house I bought. This is the first house I have ever bought, and I don't really have a job. But I have enough money and my wife works. Once we get settled in I will start thinking about what my next musical move will be. For now though I am enjoying collecting vintage guitars and listening to and playing stuff for my own enjoyment and musical development. After thirty years of playing there are still plenty of musical things left to discover. I have also started getting together with two or three cats I hadn't played much with before to work on tunes out of the Real Book. Once we have enough tunes together we might look for some restaurant jobs. Seems like a good way to break in my 1956 Gibson ES-175D. I am also investing in some recording gear in a week or two so I can learn how to operate stuff like that and start recording stuff I like to play. It is one continuous exciting adventure after another.

 

As for playing for that one cat in the audience, that is the cat I actually care most about pleasing with my playing even though I may still be playing crowd pleaser music. Though that cat is most likely a musician and an appreciator of good music and I will probably end up meeting him anyway. Those are the cats who come up and tell me that they enjoy my guitar playing.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

If you play covers then you are going to have to deal with playing some songs that would never listen to.

You have to learn to play songs that you really don't like.

These are way harder to play than ones that you like. It may be only three chords. But they'll be the hardest three chords you ever played.

I joined another cover band that has managed to develop a following by making the crowd part of the band - in a way. Two thirds of the songlist is comprised of songs requested by people (mostly women) either thru the website or on the big book that we set up at the promo table.

Our frontman is really good at remembering people and interacts with the crowd by names. He knows how to work a crowd and sell merch.

So while they're requesting a song, a lot of them buy the original CD. And maybe a T-Shirt.

He thanks them on the website for the request and we learn it. Then we play it at the next gig.

If someone requests a song during the show then we do it. Or at least attempt it in fun if it's something really out there.

Interaction with the crowd is HUGE. They want to feel like they're part of the band.

So we've ended up with a huge songlist that is comprised of mostly crowd pleasers requested by mainly women. This is the 75%.

The other 25% are things that are:
a. tunes where we get to show off a little
b. are cool, moderate tempo songs that are also popular - just not danceable.

These are the ones that get me thru. I may have to play 867-5309, but I know that I have Heartbreaker, Eruption, Ice Cream Man, Crossroads, etc. coming up.

So everybody has a good time.

Except for that guy standing at the bar with his arms folded staring at you.
It's easy for me to pick out guitarists anymore. Too easy.

[Roy Brooks]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen If you play covers then you are going to have to deal with playing some songs that would never listen to. You have to learn to play songs that you really don't like. These are way harder to play than ones that you like. It may be only three chords. But they'll be the hardest three chords you ever played.

 

 

Actually, I can play hundreds if not thousands of tunes I don't really like but found to be really easy to learn. Music theory knowledge goes a long way.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Originally posted by Roy Brooks Actually, I can play hundreds if not thousands of tunes I don't really like but found to be really easy to learn. Music theory knowledge goes a long way.

 

 

I hear ya'.

Chord charts and notes are my friend.

 

Another way to look at covers that you don't really like -

 

They may not mean anything to you.

But they may mean something to someone in the audience.

 

There was a woman at one gig about 3 or 4 years ago who kept requesting Behind Blue Eyes. She must have asked about 5 or 6 times. Only me and the frontman knew it. So we did it acoustic, just him and I.

 

She came up afterwards and thanked us ten times at least. Turns out it was her Mom's favorite song. Her mom had passed away from cancer about a month prior and that was the first night that she had been up to going out since then. So it meant a lot to her.

 

Ever since I've had a different outlook about requests. You never know about people.

[New Trail]

"So we've ended up with a huge songlist that is comprised of mostly crowd pleasers requested by mainly women. This is the 75%.

 

The other 25% are things that are:

a. tunes where we get to show off a little

b. are cool, moderate tempo songs that are also popular - just not danceable."

 

Hey Jimi Ray, how 'bout a copy of that songlist?? That sounds great!!

[vanlatte]

Originally posted by Jimi Ray Halen I hear ya'. Chord charts and notes are my friend. Another way to look at covers that you don't really like - They may not mean anything to you. But they may mean something to someone in the audience. There was a woman at one gig about 3 or 4 years ago who kept requesting Behind Blue Eyes. She must have asked about 5 or 6 times. Only me and the frontman knew it. So we did it acoustic, just him and I. She came up afterwards and thanked us ten times at least. Turns out it was her Mom's favorite song. Her mom had passed away from cancer about a month prior and that was the first night that she had been up to going out since then. So it meant a lot to her. Ever since I've had a different outlook about requests. You never know about people.

 

 

That's an awesome attitude; the entire music scene could use more like it.

[Jack Walker]

Originally posted by squealie I honestly used to feel the same way. Untlil I realized that what I was really thinking was... 'people are stupid, I only care about the .000001% who think exactly like me think. I'm too cool for the rest of the sheep'. Now, in my golden-years, I realize that... 'people are stupid, and so am I. Music in a club is a stupid thing to worry about, and it really only exists as a temporary diversion from the uber-mundane and silly existance that we're all going back to on Monday'. It's still cool to suprise an audience with something off the beaten path. But intentionally playing 'over their heads' aint gonna make anybody happy. Look at artists like Al Dimeola, or Dream Theater.... awesome talent with rabid fans.... but do you really want to play for that kind of audience? I sure as hell don't. Give me a bar full of socially-loobricated MILFs anyday.... which is why I'm gonna learn Honky-Tonk-badonkadonk, for when TK kicks me out.

 

 

Great post! My whole thing is that I'm honored when people want to spend their hard earned money to come see and hear our band. I know this is probably their one night out a week and I feel obligated to make sure they had a great time. I want them to look forward to next weekend, all week long. We play Honky-Tonk-Baddonkadonk and it really works. Our singer will sometimes challenge the women in the club with a line like," Which one of you pretty ladies was this song written about?" Kick it off loud and proud and watch them strut to the dance floor. I love that {censored}. We can still play "Josie" and will from time to time, but we know what they really want to hear and we are going to play it all night long!

[Terry Allan Hall]

It's been my experience that if you put a good, dancable beat on it, any song can be a winner...so there may be room for a little compromise!

[dougb415]

Originally posted by Bozak Why not both? Have people become so watered down in there musical taste that only cheesy cover bands are acceptable?

 

 

From my experience, yes. Mustang Sally, Old Time Rock & Roll, Margaritaville, etc - that is what the folks want to hear. Trust me they do NOT want to hear Roundabout; well, except for that "one guy in the back." The most complex song we do these days is "Carry On My Wayward Son," which is pretty much straddling the fence.

[dougb415]

Originally posted by squealie To the dudes at the gig with their arms crossed, rolling their eyes and worrying about how 'cheesy' I am... get the f*** out of my show, I ain't enjoying you either.

 

 

+1000

[renier]

there is no right and wron here, you probably both want different things out of this.

i'm with you fwiw. i'd rather play a simple tune that gets the crowd going and keeps the beer flowin than some some technical {censored} for that one dream theater fan to tap along to.