Van Halen and Led Zepplin Sue Nightclub Over Cover Songs

[Mackin]

30 000 $ per song ? What the hell ?

[Lee Flier]

They are never actually going to collect that much. It's just a "scare them into getting their license in order" tactic.

[roabre999]

*scratches Led Zep and VH off the setlists.*

 

Notices that dinosaur {censored} was never ON the setlists.

 

[Electric Catfish]

It's actually a really screwy system. They do it based on current top requested songs as reported by SoundScan. The idea being that the top requested songs played by a cover band or DJ are roughly going to equate to the top requested songs nationwide. It ain't perfect, that's for sure, but the alternative would be for every cover band and DJ to have to fill out a form of their set list after every gig and report what they played. So it's preferable to do it the way they do, even though less popular artists end up not getting paid.

 

So, "Freebird" is making somebody a fortune off this, even though hardly anybody ever actually plays it (thankfully).

[LiveMusic]

A row with ASCAP / BMI over licensing is nothing new; this has been going on for many years. It happens all the time. So, to act like this is a big deal is not really warranted. As someone said, the license fees (that protect songwriters!) don't cost much at all on an annual basis.

[GOSG]

 

Rock stars sue 8150 Van Halen, Jimmy Page and others allege copyright violations by Vail business owner Get News Feeds Steve Lynn Vail, CO Colorado February 22, 2007 Comments (0) Print Email VAIL - Several famous musicians are suing a local business owner for copyright infringement for allowing cover bands to play their songs without permission. Van Halen Music Company, Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones and Patricia Bonham are all named as plaintiffs in a lawsuit alleging that Vail business owner Steven Kovacik allowed public performances of their songs at 8150, the lawsuit says. Kovacik, owner of 8150, said he would not comment on the lawsuit. The lawsuit, which was filed in U.S. District Court in Colorado, names Kovacik and a company named Big Snow Ball LLC as defendants. The plaintiffs alleged 10 counts of copyright infringement because the defendants allowed bands to play 10 copyrighted songs on Jan. 15 and 16 at 8150, the lawsuit says. The plaintiffs are suing for as little as $750 per song and as much as $30,000 per song, plus attorneys' fees, according to court documents. Anthony Juarez, an event coordinator who represents the local band initfortim-who opened for female cover band Lez Zeppelin at 8150 on Jan. 15-said he was surprised by the lawsuit. "Bands cover famous songs all the time," Juarez said. "We cover songs sometimes." The lawsuit contends that the defendants allowed public performances of songs such as "Heartbreaker," "Whole Lotta Love," "Rock and Roll" and "Black Dog," written by Jimmy Page, Robert Plant and other members of Led Zeppelin; "Hot for Teacher," written by Eddie Van Halen and David Lee Roth of Van Halen; and "You Shook Me all Night" written by Angus Young, Malcolm Young members of AC/DC. The defendants failed to obtain a license agreement from the plaintiffs or the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, according to the lawsuit. Conor Farley, a Denver attorney for the plaintiffs, did not return phone calls seeking comment Thursday night.

 

 

Thanks for posting this...it is what I expected. Just another case of a club owner thinking that the "rules" shouldn't apply to them. Whenever I hear of this type of prosecution it is usually because the venue owner has been warned and still refused to pay the fee.

[GOSG]

 

Why can't we just play whatever music we want with all of this legal crap?

 

 

 

 

You can as long as nobody (usually the venue owner) profits from the performing of other people's copyrighted material.

 

For a loose example:

 

Think about if a movie theater stayed in business by exclusively showing pirated copies of "Feature" films, the theater would be reaping profits without paying for the content that attracted people to their theater.

 

The same theater could exist without paying any fees if they ONLY showed movies that were made by individuals who created original movies...and didn't expect much compensation for their work. But this theater would not benefit from the efforts of the stars/studio to promote the "Feature" film and therefore would probably attract fewer paying customers.

[Scafeets]

I asked another clubowner what he pays. Although it's more than I thought, it's still reasonable. The club has live music 4 nights a week, karaoke one night , a DJ one night and plays CDs when no one is on. In other words, live or recorded music every night except Mondays.

He charges a cover on weekends ($5-$10 depending on the band) and brings in 200 -300 people on the weekends, half that during the week.

His total annual bill to BMI, ASCAP and SESAC comes to about $4,000. That seems like a lot until you consider his annual entertainment budget is more than $100,000 and his door charge will cover most of that.

For those keeping score at home, think about his profit margin on a keg of Bud. Now multiply that times the 1,000+ kegs he'll sell this year because he has entertainment. Add tequila, bar food and Jager to the mix, and $4K in music fees is chump change.

[Professor Tom]

I have difficulty in believing that Jimmy Page, one of the biggest musical thiefs in history, would have the gall to sue others for copyright abuse !

[jabney]

It's actually a really screwy system. They do it based on current top requested songs as reported by SoundScan. The idea being that the top requested songs played by a cover band or DJ are roughly going to equate to the top requested songs nationwide. It ain't perfect, that's for sure, but the alternative would be for every cover band and DJ to have to fill out a form of their set list after every gig and report what they played. So it's preferable to do it the way they do, even though less popular artists end up not getting paid.

 

I figured it was something like that. But requested by whom? To be played by whom? If SoundScan is somehow tabulating requests shouted from audiences in bars, then Wilson Pickett must be very rich. However, I have a feeling that radio-centric acts such as Britney Spears and Beyonce are the only ones making a fortune from the bar scene. (You cover bands get requests for their stuff all the time - right?)

 

best,

 

john

[Lee Flier]

 

I figured it was something like that. But requested by whom? To be played by whom? If SoundScan is somehow tabulating requests shouted from audiences in bars, then Wilson Pickett must be very rich. However, I have a feeling that radio-centric acts such as Britney Spears and Beyonce are the only ones making a fortune from the bar scene.

 

 

Yes, you are are pretty much correct. It's not requests shouted from audiences in bars - it's record sales and radio. And again it's not SO far out of line... no, cover bands in bars don't get requests for Britney and Beyonce but I imagine DJ's at clubs do, while cover bands get lots of requests for the same tunes that are (over)played on classic rock and alternative rock radio.

 

As mentioned, it's far from a perfect system, but it would be hard to do any better without getting really draconian and bogged down in bureaucracy.

[Lee Flier]

 

I have difficulty in believing that Jimmy Page, one of the biggest musical thiefs in history, would have the gall to sue others for copyright abuse !

 

 

As mentioned... I doubt Page is personally even aware of the suit.

[Scafeets]

 

I figured it was something like that. But requested by whom? To be played by whom? If SoundScan is somehow tabulating requests shouted from audiences in bars, then Wilson Pickett must be very rich. However, I have a feeling that radio-centric acts such as Britney Spears and Beyonce are the only ones making a fortune from the bar scene. (You cover bands get requests for their stuff all the time - right?) best, john

 

 

Actually, Lee got it a little wrong. Soundscan records CD purchases at the point of sale. They collect the info from barcode readers and this data is used by the record companies (reality check since sales managers and field guys lie) and by Billboard to compile the charts (reality check, because record companies and retailers lie) - but not by performance rights orgs.

 

ASCAP, Billboard and the record companies get their airplay data from Broadcast Data Systems. (incidentally, Billboard, Airplay Monitor, BDS and Soundscan are all owned by Nielson. -- in reality, all of them are owned by Billboard, but the company name is Nielson --- it gets complicated.)

Anyway, when it comes to live performances, they have field reporters. So, Wilson Pickett is making a relative bundle off all hose horrible versions of Mustang Sally. At least a bundle compared to all the non-covers of say "Aja" by Walter and Donald. But the Dan also gets theirs from live performance....read on:

 

Here's the way ASCAP describes the process:

"ASCAP is guided by a "follow the dollar" principle in the design of its payment system. In other words, the money collected from television stations is paid out to members for performances of their works on television; the money collected from radio stations is paid out for radio performances, and so on. ASCAP tracks music use on these and other media and live venues to determine which music has been performed, and the appropriate writers and publishers to be paid."

Specifically, all network TV performances go directly to the writers. Cable is treated like radio (sampled plus a wild-ass guess) and, live performances have a complicated formula. For instance, as the Rolling Stones toured, each promoter had to have a license. Someone actually tracks what the Stones play and reports it to ASCAP ans BMI. Considering that they played to several million people on their last tour, you can see where that should be a little different than 16 people hearing the karaoke version of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" in the back of an Irish Pub. So, this is where Walter and Donald did also OK last year with performance royalties.

 

Sure, the system is inaccurate and unfair...but it's better n' nuthin'......

[Scafeets]

 

As mentioned... I doubt Page is personally even aware of the suit.

 

 

Correct: When you sign up with ASCAP, you authorize them to go after deadbeats on your behalf. I'm sure the plaintifs were VH and LZ because the majority of songs those two nights came from their catalog. (Apparently, they had tribute bands.) ASCAP can't be the plaintiff because they're not the copyright owners -- just the collection agents.

 

Long story short: Cheapskate clubowner tries to stiff ASCAP and gets sued. Rookie reporter doesn't know her ass from her elbow and reports this everyday occurance as if it's news.

[Lee Flier]

 

Anyway, when it comes to live performances, they have field reporters.

 

 

Yeah, they do, but the number of field reporters is pretty small and although what I wrote was oversimplified (on purpose), the bottom line is they get their data from a number of sources (mostly not bar bands) and end up mostly making a WAG (Wild Assed Guess) as to who gets paid for bar band performances.

 

 

Specifically, all network TV performances go directly to the writers. Cable is treated like radio (sampled plus a wild-ass guess) and, live performances have a complicated formula. For instance, as the Rolling Stones toured, each promoter had to have a license. Someone actually tracks what the Stones play and reports it to ASCAP ans BMI. Considering that they played to several million people on their last tour, you can see where that should be a little different than 16 people hearing the karaoke version of "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" in the back of an Irish Pub.

 

 

Exactly. They track the actual songs played at big concerts but it's not worth it at small bars... ergo, the Wild Ass Guess system.

 

 

Sure, the system is inaccurate and unfair...but it's better n' nuthin'......

 

 

Yep.

[caveman]

This is interesting.

 

http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

[TheDarkBrown]

i thought cover songs were considered imitations and as long as the act wasn't performing as the original band or taking credit for the songs, then it was ok to play the song?

 

maybe i am crazy?

 

ahh, yes after reading the entire thread, i see.

[Preacher Will]

 

I asked another clubowner what he pays. Although it's more than I thought, it's still reasonable. The club has live music 4 nights a week, karaoke one night , a DJ one night and plays CDs when no one is on. In other words, live or recorded music every night except Mondays. He charges a cover on weekends ($5-$10 depending on the band) and brings in 200 -300 people on the weekends, half that during the week. His total annual bill to BMI, ASCAP and SESAC comes to about $4,000. That seems like a lot until you consider his annual entertainment budget is more than $100,000 and his door charge will cover most of that. For those keeping score at home, think about his profit margin on a keg of Bud. Now multiply that times the 1,000+ kegs he'll sell this year because he has entertainment. Add tequila, bar food and Jager to the mix, and $4K in music fees is chump change.

 

 

 

If his "entertainment budget" is "more than $100,00" and his "total annual bill to BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC comes to about $4,000.00" then his licensing costs are less than four percent. That is less than the restaurant tax I have to pay for buying food in the bar. Not a big deal IMHO.

[Scafeets]

 

If his "entertainment budget" is "more than $100,00" and his "total annual bill to BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC comes to about $4,000.00" then his licensing costs are less than four percent. That is less than the restaurant tax I have to pay for buying food in the bar. Not a big deal IMHO.

 

 

Exactly -- It's chump change. Any club owner not willing to pay these fees deserves to get his ass sued.

[Scafeets]

 

This is interesting. http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html

 

 

Interesting, but only partially accurate. The manual sampling that Reid complains about was the best and most-fair method in the 80s and early 90s. For more than a dozen years, ASCAP, BMI and SESAC have been buying data from BDS. BDS samples radio stations electronically and does a damn good job of it. Here's some details on it: http://www.bdsonline.com/about.html

 

BDS has had a profound effect on the industry. First of all, it gave many more artist credit for airplay. It proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that radio programmers were lying about airplay when they kept logs. (Can you spell P-A-Y-O-L-A?)

 

And, in combination with Soundscan, which brought more accuracy to retail sales, the Billboard charts became way more accurate than they had been. The net effect of these two technolgies was the recognition that both country and hip-hop were getting much more airplay annd selling way more CDs than had been estimated and/or reported. That was teh reason SESAC grew. Reid apparently missed the point that SESAC has a large footprint in the Nashville community.

 

BDS and Soundscan gave credence to several smaller labels who didn't have the juice with radio and retail people to "get reported" under the old system, and didn't have armies of promo and marketing people out there coordinating radio and retail reports to the trades.

 

So Harvey Reid's rant about methodology was somewhat true (and non-fixable) when he originally wrote it, but not so any more.

 

He's a little more off-base on the history of BMI. BMI was started by broadcasters as a strike-breaking organization because the musicians union and ASCAP were battling with NAB (National Assn. of Broadcasters). The original deal had radio stations hiring and maintaining bands. Radio stations started to reneg on this agreement in the 40s as the popularity of spinning records swept accross the industry.

 

At this time, ASCAP, in coordination with the union, said "OK, then compensate us for playing our recordings." ASCAP wanted to represent the musicians as well as the writers. The radio industry said "screw you" and ASCAP pulled the license on radio broadcast, resulting in a short period where only public domain recordings could be played. The union was fighting for a performance royalty so the musicians, as well as the songwriters and publishers, would get paid. This happened in Europe, but the radio people crushed the initiative in the US. To this day, musicians still get squat for radio performance thanks to the greedy bastards at NAB.

 

Finally, let's take a look a the source: Harvey Reid is a fine songwriter and musician; but he's not writing pop tunes. If he were James Taylor, he would probably like the current system because it would compensate him for all the airplay and cover tunes.

 

ASCAP, BMI and SESAC aren't much help to a self-produced folk artist who has no designs on developing an audience with broad appeal. They're not set up to do that. On the other hand, they're not asking Reid for any money. It's the venue that plays ASCAP and BMI songs that pay -- not the artist.

[DavidFisher]

The fees aren't much! Why don't these places just cough up the $50/year or whatever they come out to?

[rodclement]

I payed $300 for both this past year for my private club...willingly! Prior to my arrival here they had never payed before, this club has been in business since 1912...I have my own band so I believe in compensating the artist and since I use music to either enhance my affairs at the club, or as the source of the affair itself, let's be honest and fork up the cash!

 

Rod

[brassic]

Those licenses exist to protect the songwriters and the musicians, which (theoretically) make up the vast majority of people posting in this forum.

 

The club owner is the one at fault here, not ASCAP, BMI, Van Halen and Led Zeppelin.