Solid State...or... I'll Tote My 100Watt Marshall on my Power Scooter!

[Jimi Ray Halen]

 

Well, it's all subjective , of course, but the fact is, you aren't switching from a "British classic crunch to a class A sizzle instantly", you're switching from one preset digital snapshot, or artificial representation, to another. I use both SS and tube, and I find the modeling in my SS to be extremely good for what it is, and at the same time extremely limited; i.e, you'd better like what it gives you, because you ain't getting anything else. Rather than letting you dial in what you think a brit amp should sound like, or a blackface, or a Fender tweed, it gives you what it thinks it should sound like.

 

 

Well, short of carrying around a Twin, & a Vox, & a Marshall, & a Mesa, it's about as close as you're going to get. Which is pretty darned good. Hell, just the fact that you can switch between those four (with effects) without even leaving bank one and have 32 more tones to choose from is very freeing.

 

Heck - you give these four amps to four different players and they'll all sound different anyway. Each player will set it to what they think it should sound like.

 

What surprised me the most in making the switch was the learning curve involved with the newer technology. I had no idea at first of just how much I had to learn in order to be able to get the most out of the amp. I was ready to give up at one point. But I'm glad that I didn't. Because once you get past that wtf? stage you can get killer tone variations. This is important to me. If we do a Stray Cats tune then I want it to sound like the record. Then if we do a Van Halen tune next I want it to sound like the record also. It took me a little time to learn how to do this but I find it easier to get into the vibe of the song when my tone is there. And we do a large variety of music.

 

And Wade - you're absolutely right about the gain thing. It took me awhile to realize this too. If anything, you want to keep your gain as low as possible while still getting the tone you need. A lot of hard rock that sounds very heavy isn't very distorted - it's just loud. AC/DC is a perfect example of this.

[ToneGrail]

I have to say as a guitarist / keyboardist in a Motown band, that solid state amps have that crystal clean tone I just can't get from a compact tube amp. The smaller tube amps just don't have enough headroom for the style of music I play and I certainly don't want to lug around a Twin Reverb with all the other gear I have to schlep. While most people in the audience don't care about my guitar tone as long as it's not ear-piercing, I have to say I get some really nice clean tones out of my Powerblock, not to mention that it doubles as a keyboard amp.

[tietjen]

I have to say as a guitarist / keyboardist in a Motown band, that solid state amps have that crystal clean tone I just can't get from a compact tube amp. The smaller tube amps just don't have enough headroom for the style of music I play and I certainly don't want to lug around a Twin Reverb with all the other gear I have to schlep. While most people in the audience don't care about my guitar tone as long as it's not ear-piercing, I have to say I get some really nice clean tones out of my Powerblock, not to mention that it doubles as a keyboard amp.

 

Agreed if you are looking for a great keyboard amp and a average guitar amp.

[wades_keys]

Agreed if you are looking for a great keyboard amp and a average guitar amp.

 

Probably true.

 

If using a POD or any external preamp, the type and configuration of the power amp really does make a difference, especially with respect to cutting through a mix.

 

I find my ADA microtube to be pretty darn good for this, in the context of 2nd guitar and not really needing to cut through.

 

Our lead gtrist uses a big Yamaha Natural sound Power amp (4 u, solid state) that just sounds killer for lead tones (as recommended by Reb Beach - yeah go on and laugh but Reb is a killer player with great tone)

 

I plugged the POD into a {censored}ty 300 watt SS power amp and the difference in definition and clarity at live volumes was actually pretty stunning.

[wades_keys]

 

I have to say as a guitarist / keyboardist in a Motown band, that solid state amps have that crystal clean tone I just can't get from a compact tube amp.

 

 

You should spring for a Roland JC-120 or maybe a GK if you want stellar cleans....

[BATCAT]

 

You should spring for a Roland JC-120 or maybe a GK if you want stellar cleans....

 

 

But he said he didn't want to lug around a Twin... a JC120 isn't much better.

 

That said, I love the JC120; I used one for years and years. But it was really just too much power and weight for me.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

Probably true. If using a POD or any external preamp, the type and configuration of the power amp really does make a difference, especially with respect to cutting through a mix. I find my ADA microtube to be pretty darn good for this, in the context of 2nd guitar and not really needing to cut through. Our lead gtrist uses a big Yamaha Natural sound Power amp (4 u, solid state) that just sounds killer for lead tones (as recommended by Reb Beach - yeah go on and laugh but Reb is a killer player with great tone) I plugged the POD into a {censored}ty 300 watt SS power amp and the difference in definition and clarity at live volumes was actually pretty stunning.

 

That is a thing about digital gear - you have to set the parameters to gig level. If you have it set for home practice levels and then crank it up for a gig it will sound bad. Real bad.

This is when I first learned about the Fletcher/Munson curve.

And SPL meters.

My head may hurt from diving into dig. tech. - but that's better than my back hurting.

[wades_keys]

That is a thing about digital gear - you have to set the parameters to gig level. If you have it set for home practice levels and then crank it up for a gig it will sound bad. Real bad. This is when I first learned about the Fletcher/Munson curve. And SPL meters. My head may hurt from diving into dig. tech. - but that's better than my back hurting.

 

Yup I deal with this phenoma too on both gtr and keys.

 

But I switched to a power amp I don't normally use for guitar and that changed things for the worse apparently.

 

Also the pod has a switch for direct or amp - on direct it will introduce speaker simulation which will muddy the tone coming out of your amp.

 

I dial in my tones at home through headphones and then tweak them at rehearsal, where we play at gig volumes.

 

I've noticed bass frequencies are the worst offenders - at low volumes the ear loses the ability to hear the bass so we tend to turn up the bass.

 

But then at high volumes it turns to mud.

 

The other thing is volume-related high-frequency attenuation, or blame the bass player syndrome. The bass will sound louder as the night goes on even if there are no changes in pick attack or gain...

[BATCAT]

 

I've noticed bass frequencies are the worst offenders - at low volumes the ear loses the ability to hear the bass so we tend to turn up the bass. But then at high volumes it turns to mud. The other thing is volume-related high-frequency attenuation, or blame the bass player syndrome. The bass will sound louder as the night goes on even if there are no changes in pick attack or gain...

 

 

Latley, on poorer-sounding stages, I've taken to the practice of significantly cutting the bass on my amp...

[Jimi Ray Halen]

 

Yup I deal with this phenoma too on both gtr and keys. But I switched to a power amp I don't normally use for guitar and that changed things for the worse apparently. Also the pod has a switch for direct or amp - on direct it will introduce speaker simulation which will muddy the tone coming out of your amp. I dial in my tones at home through headphones and then tweak them at rehearsal, where we play at gig volumes. I've noticed bass frequencies are the worst offenders - at low volumes the ear loses the ability to hear the bass so we tend to turn up the bass. But then at high volumes it turns to mud. The other thing is volume-related high-frequency attenuation, or blame the bass player syndrome. The bass will sound louder as the night goes on even if there are no changes in pick attack or gain...

 

 

True. But this is where my EQ pedals work wonders. I use one in my signal chain to EQ for the room, and one on my 57 that I mic my amp with.

 

When I used my POD I found that the Tech21 Power Engine 60 worked the best. It gave me the closest thing to the OMG headphone tones.

[ToneGrail]

Agreed if you are looking for a great keyboard amp and a average guitar amp.

 

Actually, with a bit of reverb and a splash of delay, the clean guitar sound of the Powerblock is pretty stellar sounding in a full band situation (for your reference, I was previously using a 68 silverface Vibrolux amp, so I definitely have an idea of what good tone is). While the Powerblock isn't quite the same thing as my Vibrolux, it can definitely hang with it. In fact, I get an even cleaner sound than I had before, which was my goal. I never have any problem cutting through the mix with horns, keyboards, etc. I can use the left channel for guitar thru the front input and feed it into my 212 celestion guitar cab and the right channel (via the rear panel line-in jack) for keyboard and feed it thru a full-range floor wedge. It's almost like having 2 separate amps in one since it's a stereo amp. IMO it's not worth lugging the Vibrolux out if virtually nobody is going to be able to tell the difference.

[wades_keys]

 

Actually, with a bit of reverb and a splash of delay, the clean guitar sound of the Powerblock is pretty stellar sounding in a full band situation (for your reference, I was previously using a 68 silverface Vibrolux amp, so I definitely have an idea of what good tone is).

 

 

Cool - I'll see if I can demo one of those.

 

The price and size is right, that's for sure and I need a replacement for the old ADA...

 

BTW, are you using the crate 2x12 with celestions? I can't believe the price on those (150$).

 

2x12 cabs are probably the biggest ripoff in the musical industry today - it's insane what they are going for...

[bigolpimp]

Why do 'tards continue to dichotomize solid state vs tubes? Use both, jackasses!

 

Sometimes I feel like super effects on solid state, sometimes I feel like the raunchiness of tubes!

 

Sometimes I use a modeler through tube power amps!

 

It's not "one or the other," except if you're poor (understandable) or simple-minded.

[bigolpimp]

 

+10000. The other thing that many amateurs don't understand is gain structure - Angus Young for example used a very low-gain sound - too much gain will kill your tone even on a tube amp. That's what I'm saying man - all of your gain and most of the tone is coming from the PREAMP. This is how amps work - the power amp stage is very close to 1:1 gain ratio and as such is not amplifying the sound at all! If you get that wrong, wtf are you going to accomplish with power tube distortion?

 

 

Just out of curiosity, I would invite you to read the articles at amptone.com, more specifically this one:

 

http://amptone.com/g075.htm

 

Then, tell me why they are wrong. I am going into this unbiased and am rather curious to see if you can explain why pre-amp tone is more important. My thoughts on amp modelers and effects like the POD (I use an Adrenalinn II, which is like the POD but also has a drum sequencer) are that they sound great as digital preamps into tube power amps. That way, I get the effects of the preamps and the power tube distortion. However, I do it after the THD hotplate as a line out because time-based effects sound more natural later in the chain and after distortion.

[wades_keys]

 

Then, tell me why they are wrong. I am going into this unbiased and am rather curious to see if you can explain why pre-amp tone is more important. My thoughts on amp modelers and effects like the POD (I use an Adrenalinn II, which is like the POD but also has a drum sequencer) are that they sound great as digital preamps into tube power amps.

 

 

Why should I have to explain it when the information is to be found in even the most rudimentary book on amplifiers. Or are you implying that engineers have gotten it wrong all these years when they place the tone sculpting controls on the preamp?

 

How about you show me a power amp with tone controls on it and then we'll talk, huh?

 

Sure power amps color the tone - it's all about crossover distortion on the reassembled sine waves in a class A/B amp. Also tube sag - which is coloration and not processing. An imperfection.

 

Class A amps operate on the full cycle of the sine and have no crossover distortion, hence the coveted tone.

[ToneGrail]

 

Cool - I'll see if I can demo one of those. The price and size is right, that's for sure and I need a replacement for the old ADA... BTW, are you using the crate 2x12 with celestions? I can't believe the price on those (150$). 2x12 cabs are probably the biggest ripoff in the musical industry today - it's insane what they are going for...

 

 

Wow, that is a great deal for a Celestion 2x12. No, I'm not using that particular one. However I am using an older Crate closed-back carpet-covered 2x12 that came stock with Celestion Classic Lead 80's that I bought back in 1997 for $300. If I already didn't have a cab, I'd be all over that deal!

 

You might have to search far and wide to get a Powerblock these days. They've been discontinued and I haven't seen any for sale online for a couple of months now since the blowout clearance sale.

[bigolpimp]

 

How about you show me a power amp with tone controls on it and then we'll talk, huh? It's obvious you know nothing about amp design - where do you think the tone circuits are located, huh?

 

 

It's obvious that you're a dumbass.

 

The tone from the power amp section stems from the property of physics whereby the tone is affected by tube saturation, which is a function of gain and volume.

 

This is notwithstanding the fact that my tube amp heads have tone controls on them. Where's your degree in electrical engineering?

 

Another presumptuous would-be expert, I see. I was asking for objective information for you to refute for the purpose of convincing other forum members of your point. I had no preconceived notion of your stance, but now I see that yours is based upon opinion and not a thorough study of the physics and audio engineering of amp design.

 

Fool.

[wades_keys]

I was asking for objective information for you to refute for the purpose of convincing other forum members of your point. I had no preconceived notion of your stance, but now I see that yours is based upon opinion and not a thorough study of the physics and audio engineering of amp design. Fool.

Oh I see - this from the person who concludes that since the tone knobs are mounted on the front of a box that you refer to as an "amplifier" that they are affecting the power amp signal path.

 

Read a rudimentary book on amp design and get back to me.

 

[wades_keys]

I had no preconceived notion of your stance, but now I see that yours is based upon opinion and not a thorough study of the physics and audio engineering of amp design.

 

Cool - wanna talk Kirchoff's law, or how about Thevenin's theorem?

 

Nah - I'll keep it simple and lets just go with ohms law - ya know P over I E, P = I squared R, that kind of thing...Or even the difference between peak and Rms.

 

I'm waiting....

 

Okay buddy whatever.

 

"Thorough study of the physics" - hey why don't you start with a rudimentary book on amp design, then you would realize that your "tube amp" consists of a preamp section and a power amp section.

 

I never said power amps don't affect the tone.

 

I did say that the majority of the tone sculpting comes from the preamp - this is a fact that you would know if you had even the slightest clue as to how an amplifier circuit is constructed.

 

But go ahead with your naivete' - it's actually fairly amusing.

[ggm1960]

Cool - wanna talk Kirchoff's law, or how about Thevenin's theorem? Nah - I'll keep it simple and lets just go with ohms law - ya know P over I E, P = I squared R, that kind of thing...Or even the difference between peak and Rms. I'm waiting.... Okay buddy whatever. "Thorough study of the physics" - hey why don't you start with a rudimentary book on amp design, then you would realize that your "tube amp" consists of a preamp section and a power amp section. I never said power amps don't affect the tone. I did say that the majority of the tone sculpting comes from the preamp - this is a fact that you would know if you had even the slightest clue as to how an amplifier circuit is constructed. But go ahead with your naivete' - it's actually fairly amusing.

 

You are quite right of course. Instead of arguing it's easy to find the schematics for just about any silly old tube amp on the internet. http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/ is a good place to start, they have the scoop on just about every Fender tube amp ever made. I know I've seen the schematics for some Marshalls on the net as well, no rocket science degree required for those either. Obviously I haven't looked at them all but I've yet to see any amp, SS or tube, that didn't have the frequency/tone shaping pots/caps in the preamp section.

 

You hear a lot of talk about great tone because of the tubes, you've also mentioned the power supply sag, but I often wonder if a lot of the supposed greatness isn't due to the inefficiencies of the output impedance matching transformer.

To me tube amps are just simple antique circuits. I have a couple around that more than anything else are just hobbyist tinkerer toys. They have about as much magic mojo as a toaster. I used to think that TV's were magical boxes too until I learned about deflection amps, flyback transformers, etc but I didn't have any trouble replacing that old tube relic with a new LCD version.

I don't however forsee tube amps going away anytime soon, in fact, I had to laugh recently when I saw that Marshall has now incorporated MIDI into them!

Now how do you reconcile that???!!!

I guess as long as you find something special or magical about the sound of tube amps you should absolutely use them. Even I still will when I feel like it but not without a backup plan.

[ggm1960]

Here we go: http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm

[bigolpimp]

Cool - wanna talk Kirchoff's law, or how about Thevenin's theorem? Nah - I'll keep it simple and lets just go with ohms law - ya know P over I E, P = I squared R, that kind of thing...Or even the difference between peak and Rms. I'm waiting.... Okay buddy whatever. "Thorough study of the physics" - hey why don't you start with a rudimentary book on amp design, then you would realize that your "tube amp" consists of a preamp section and a power amp section. I never said power amps don't affect the tone. I did say that the majority of the tone sculpting comes from the preamp - this is a fact that you would know if you had even the slightest clue as to how an amplifier circuit is constructed. But go ahead with your naivete' - it's actually fairly amusing.

 

You elucidated your ignorance when you claimed that the gain structure of power amps are 1:1 (i.e. linear). This is true, but only for solid state power amps. This is why guitar players like Eddie Van Halen saturated their power tubes, put them through an attenuator, then ran the line out(s) into solid state power amps which are linear. Tube power amps are not linear and this is why their distortion characteristics include even harmonic distortion, which is akin to the way humans perceive sound (even harmonics and non-linearly).

 

The Fletcher-Munson curve dictates that human ears are more sensitive to middle frequencies at lower levels, which is why high amplitude levels of low and high frequencies are required in order to perceive the same frequencies within the 1,000 kHz frequency range.

 

With non-linear distortion in the power amp section, the tone is shaped by the gain. This is what solid state power amplifiers cannot achieve. Furthermore, when distortion does occur in tube amps, their is natural compression, which is musical to the human ear; However, digital power amplifiers, when clipped, sound absolutely horrid. Try clipping your little pre-amps to hear what it sounds like.

 

That is why Marshall's mixed pre-amp/power amp solid state/tube amp hybrid sucked.

 

solid state power amps are definitely usable--but only to emulate tube amps and only in linearly amplifying non-linear tube distortion/power chains.

 

Tis you, dumbass, that needs to read more about that which you do not know. It's the intrinsic tone control from the gain structuring that comes from amplifier heads that shape the tone more than the pre-amps (even tube pre-amps)--even with tone controls on the pre-amps. If you had any sense, you would have noticed that the sought-after tone from tube amps stems from the power tube section, after all. Otherwise, they ARE indeed indistinguishable. What makes a tube amp so highly preferred is its power tubes, which shape the tone. The solid state power amps are designed to reproduce faithfully what is actually there. The power amps in tube amps are designed to provide natural compression and even harmonics that solid state amps can't touch. Their amplification scheme is logarithmic--just like the human ear. As such, tube power amp saturation is more akin to that which we enjoy.

 

that's Power = I times V, or power equals current times voltage. v = IR = voltage = current times resistance. If you're going to use formulas, then get them right.

 

go to school, dumbass.

[wades_keys]

 

that's Power = I times V, or power equals current times voltage. v = IR = voltage = current times resistance. If you're going to use formulas, then get them right.

 

 

Which is what I said you {censored}ing worthless excuse for life.

 

P = Power

I = current

E = Voltage.

 

Get the {censored} off this board with your little insults - no one is taking you seriously.

 

Look how long it took you to craft your little response - oh can the kiddy cut and paste from Wiki now.

 

I'm in no mood to waste any more time with you so why don't you just crawl back under your little rock you {censored}ing twit.

 

You have no friends here.

[bigolpimp]

I just pointed out your ignorance regarding the tonal characteristics of solid state amps vs. power tubes and how pre-amp shaping has very little to do with what makes tube amps sound so great.

 

Solid state amps HAVE to rely on pre-amp shaping because that is not the job of the digital power amps.

 

Don't get your panties in such a bunch. Truth is more important than attitude.

[wades_keys]

 

Don't get your panties in such a bunch. Truth is more important than attitude.

 

 

Here's your attitude: {censored} YOU

 

Here's the truth: ASSHOLE