Another "What would you do" question.

[ckcondon]

A bit of a vent...

I've been playing bands for many years and have a pretty good understanding of the various dynamics of different personalities coming together in a band situation. Sometimes you have to accept certain things that are less than ideal for the sake of the band.

I started my current band about five years ago with a couple of friends who are very talented players. It's always been part-time and we only gig about one weekend per month. We played a a 3-piece for a while before deciding to add another guitarist. The band kept evolving and gaining local status and better gigs.

As time went by, we had some turnover in players due to people moving away, having babies etc. I'm now the only original member and have managed to keep things rolling along. It helps that I own all the PA, trailer, lights, do all the booking, manage the website... You get the picture.

Here's where it gets interesting. We have 2 guys who are really solid players, but have issues with gear. Both have kids and not much extra income. We have already bought a Marshall half-stack for the guitarist and he's only paid about $100 on it in a year. The bass player has blown up his SWR rig and is now playing through a Crate combo that was given to my by a friend. He says he's going to get a bass POD, but I'm hesitant to have him play through the monitors exclusively since it can muddy up the sound for the singer.

Neither of them really bring anyone to the shows, and our fan base has dropped off over the past year.

I see them as being a little jaded and don't really get excited about shows like myself and the singer. We work hard to sound good and I am a strong believer in "Performing" as opposed to just "Playing". Each show is a big deal, and I give it my all to entertain the audience. Showing up in the same clothes I went fishing in is not an option if you know what I mean!

I have looked around to see if there are more like-minded people to make changes, but the tough part is that they are best friends and kind of a "package deal". I don't have 6 months to get half the band up-to-speed!

Like I said, both are good players and nice guys. It's just a strain to carry so much of the load.

All I've ever asked is to know the songs, be professional and enthusiastic and be responsible for all your backline gear like amps, mics, cables and stands.

We can continue on like this and we can keep carrying the load for the others and accept that this is it for now, or keep actively looking for other guys who can get gig-ready in a short period of time.

I guess what I'm wondering is what "Boundaries" do you all have for what you will put up with for the sake of a band? This is part-time, but very important to me. My band is my hobby that I spend much free time on and I want it to be the best product it can.

Am I "enabling" them, or am I just being a control freak? Should we cut them loose, or accept them and just effing play?

 

Discuss!

 

Thanks

[ggm1960]

I can't imagine ever buying equipment for someone else to use.

[BlueStrat]

 

I can't imagine ever buying equipment for someone else to use.

 

 

+ infinity!

 

Try showing up as a mechanic or carpenter with no tools. See what happens.

[lonotes]

but the tough part is that they are best friends and kind of a "package deal".

 

Doesn't sound like much of a package to me. I could a l m o s t see providing gear for one of them, on a temporary loan basis, but not both of them. If it were me, I'd be moving on. With all of my gear. And I'd return the $100, and sell (or keep) the Marshall.

[Nobody Told Me]

You say that the band has evolved so much that you're the only original member? Time to evolve again my friend.

[MrKnobs]

I used to play in a successful band with a very young bassist, he was 16 or something like that. He had nothing, except for his talent.

 

The other guys really wanted him in the band, so we took him on and and THEY thought I should set him up with a bass and amp. I didn't like the idea, so I decided to set up what I thought would be a self-correction situation.

 

I let him use a P-Bass and an old Peavey amp I had, but I charged him $50/night (this was back in 1983). We were playing 3-4 nights/wk and making at least $100 per man each night, so it was an extra $150-$200 wk for me loaning "Pete" my crappy stuff.

 

I URGED him to save some money each gig and buy his own stuff, but he was young and always blew his gig money on other things.

 

I expected our arrangement to last a month, tops, but it went on for about two years. If you do a rough calculation, Pete ended up paying me more than $15,000 for using that crappy old gear and even gave back what was left of it when the band broke up.

 

My bandmates thought I was the biggest dick imaginable! They kept insisting that I put Pete on some "rent to own" plan but initially, at least, I wasn't interested in selling the stuff and really hoped he'd get his own gear in short order. He could have done that at any time by just saving a bit of money up, but he chose not to.

 

Terry D.

[SpaceNorman]

 

but the tough part is that they are best friends and kind of a "package deal". Doesn't sound like much of a package to me. I could a l m o s t see providing gear for one of them, on a temporary loan basis, but not both of them. If it were me, I'd be moving on. With all of my gear. And I'd return the $100, and sell (or keep) the Marshall.

 

 

+1000 to what Lonotes said. I don't mind helping a guy out in an emergency (i.e., amp blows up, keyboards get knocked over, gear gets ripped off, etc.) but providing the essentials (i.e., a guy's only axe and/or amp) for an extended period of time without seeing significant effort from the guy to get his rig together!?!? No f'ing way!

 

As far as the bass through the monitors idea - as the P.A. owner, I'd derail that train of immediately. You resort to tactics like that to finish out the show the bass player's amp blowed up in...not as a long term solution to not having an amp.

 

If you've got a functional act - complete with paying gigs on the books - you should be able to find players who are professional enough to have their own gear.

[wades_keys]

This may sound a bit harsh but the guys a bum (with the Marshall)

 

A hundred bucks in a YEAR? What's that come to, less than 10 dollars a month.

 

You need to take your cut out of the gig money, at the very least.

 

Better still, boot the bum - I mean, how disrespectful - you telling me the {censored}er can only cough up 10 bucks a month? Please. If he's a "friend" then you gotta ask yourself do you have time for "friends" like that?

 

Bet he has no problem keeping beer in his gut, or taking care of his other needs - but he cries poor and can't even cough up 10 lousy bucks a month? You're being used bro. I bet he's got a drug or gambling problem....

 

Ebay the Marshall and boot the bum to the curb - no rig, no gig.

 

In fact, if you're smart, you'll go get the Marshall now - guys like this have the capability to just disappear on you one day - and you'll never see him or the rig again.

 

Be smart - do the right thing.

[wades_keys]

I had a similar situation with a friend of mine years ago - I loaned him 500 dollars, with the expectation I would be paid back monthly.

 

I got about 80 bucks out of him total, and a whole {censored}load of poor mouth excuses.

 

If he wasn't my friend, I'd probably beat it out of him - instead I've just written it off but I tell you what - NEVER AGAIN.

 

People like that think that the world owes them something - I now refuse to associate with BUMS in any aspect of my life.

[rodclement]

Tough situation, we all have been in it. I am playing in an acoustic trio that has been a duo with a rotating third since January, me and the guitar player get along great and share your mindset, it is our hobby but a serious one.

 

The problems so far with the third person is that they are either not dedicated or think that they are better than they really are, my advice to you is the same we aply in our situation, keep the guy (vocals) that you like and get along with and find other people you like, or adapt as a duo, that is how I ended up in accoustic set-up, less people, less gear, less egos!

 

As for the equipment...kick the guys out and keep your gear! I wish someone would provide me with free gear to work with!

 

Good luck!

 

Rod

[ckcondon]

Thanks for all the opinions.

I do realize that I haven't been firm enough in explaining my expectations to them and making it too easy for them not to do anything.

They are basically good guys, but I see where I'm being taken advantage of since I'm willing to do so much in order to keep the band going.

Unfortunately a duo isn't much of an option since it would just be a singer and drummer!

Talented people who don't want to play full-time are tough to find around here... I'm keeping my eyes open and we will talk it out at the next practice.

 

CC

[wades_keys]

 

Thanks for all the opinions. I do realize that I haven't been firm enough in explaining my expectations to them and making it too easy for them not to do anything.

 

Dude, you expected him to pay for the rig. You've gotten less than 10 freaking dollars a month.

 

Sounds like he may be a good guy, with an addiction.

 

Would you welsh on a deal like that with anybody? Why is it okay when it happens to you?

 

You shouldn't have to play strongarm collection agency to get your damn money - a true friend would not put you in that situation.

 

THat's the bottom line - find a way to get your money now, or take your damn amp back and ditch this guy.

[Alan Roberts]

+ 1

 

Sometimes we'd use band money to replace broken gear, or even as a loan for new gear; but a payment policy had to be established and agreed to by everyone since it was "the band's" money. But no way would I just buy equipment for someone to use.

[corbind]

I'm with most of the posters here. Get your stuff back and boot the moochers.

[The*Ataris]

I think one's equipment is directly reflective of his or her commitment to the craft. If the dude can't save up for a decent amp after one year, he either doesn't respect you, doesn't get it, or doesn't care.

 

That said, my singer doesn't own a real amp and I let him use an old Twin Reverb I had lying around. I don't mind at all, though, unlike some of you apparently. It's a small price to pay for someone who's a great singer and songwriter who also owns half 3/4 of our practice PA that I run a synth through. He takes care of it, just retubed and recapped it for me, and sounds great through it. What's the big deal?

[wades_keys]

 

I think one's equipment is directly reflective of his or her commitment to the craft. If the dude can't save up for a decent amp after one year, he either doesn't respect you, doesn't get it, or doesn't care. That said, my singer doesn't own a real amp and I let him use an old Twin Reverb I had lying around. I don't mind at all, though, unlike some of you apparently. It's a small price to pay for someone who's a great singer and songwriter who also owns half 3/4 of our practice PA that I run a synth through. He takes care of it, just retubed and recapped it for me, and sounds great through it. What's the big deal?

 

Umm let's see - we have a situation where someone promised to pay off an amp - the result being less than 10 dollars a month at years end.

 

Verses you letting someone use an amp who has taken care of it, to the point of investing his own money in it?

 

You honestly can't see the difference?

[The*Ataris]

No, I'm perfectly aware of the difference. I just can't understand why others aren't more assertive in these situations. When I lent my amp out, my buddy was informed on how use and maintain the amp. I didn't have to tell him when to retube it; he just knew that was how to take care of it.

 

There are about five threads a week dealing with band conflict issues and I can't, for the life of me, understand why everyone participates in all of this passive aggressive bull{censored}.

 

These problems exist because you aren't communicating properly. Most people people in this world are pretty damned reasonable when you're straight up with them.

[ckcondon]

Part of the deal is that the rig stays at my house and he can use it for gigs until it's paid for.

Another factor is that it may not have been his first choice in amps, but we got a good deal on it used and I have never been disappointed in a Marshall half-stack for a rock band.

I'm going to find out if he intends to pay it off or if I should consider the $$ he paid as rental and sell it off. There are mics, cables and other PA gear I'd like to use that money for.

The muso pickins' are slim here for replacements.

Any guitar players who have good vocals (and gear!) looking for a part time modern rock cover band in Jax, FL?

[wades_keys]

 

Part of the deal is that the rig stays at my house and he can use it for gigs until it's paid for. Another factor is that it may not have been his first choice in amps, but we got a good deal on it used and I have never been disappointed in a Marshall half-stack for a rock band.

 

Are you actually making excuses for getting less than 10 bucks a month from this guy?

 

Is it really that tough for you to confront this guy and demand your stinking money?

 

 

I'm going to find out if he intends to pay it off or if I should consider the $$ he paid as rental and sell it off. There are mics, cables and other PA gear I'd like to use that money for.

 

Well gee, he's been giving you less than 10 bucks a month for an ENTIRE YEAR.

 

Money talks, b.s. walks - is it that tough for you to set an ultimatum - like give me all my damn cash within 2 months or this amp, and you, are outta here?

 

Seriously dude, can you not just come right out in the open, and set an ultimatum? Why is that tough? Are you afraid of this guy, or "conflict" in general?

 

Not trying to bust your balls, but I think you are letting this guy, and no doubt others, walk all over you.

 

Time to man up, bro.

[ckcondon]

OK points taken... I must be getting what I deserve for not being more of a dick. Keep in mind it's easier to tell someone to do something than to stand in their shoes and do it yourself.

Fear of people or of conflict is not the issue. Keeping a good band together is.

I can be a hard-ass when I need to, and I guess that in my life diplomacy has been a better tool. Yes, I have let it go on too long without addressing it. Yes, I will put it all on the table this week, and I'll take his gig $$ until it's paid. He can either take it or leave it.

It's a little know secret that that over the years, I have kept this band going for one reason... ME. I want to play, I want to sound good and I want to put on a good show. Am I being used, or am I using the other guys as a vehicle for my goals? It's all about perspective!

 

I guess it would be easier to can the guys if:

1. We didn't have gigs on the calendar

2. Replacements were easy to find

3. We didn't actually sound pretty good together

 

I've been in in a lot of bands, most of them with plenty of drama. This has been one of the easiest as far as personalities go. So I have probably not pushed an issue that I didn't consider "band-killer" worthy!

 

Like I said in the original post, I'm curious to see where others draw the line. I now see that most of you would cut & run. Easy answer. What you're not talking about is the fallout of replacing half the band with little time to get new guys gig-ready.

What would YOU do? cancel gigs (Not gonna)? Keep playing and looking? Fire 'em and hope that we get lucky with craigslist and don't destroy a pretty good reputation?

Firing guys is half the solution, help me figure out the other half in a town with a limited talent pool.

 

Thanks,

 

CC

[wades_keys]

 

Keep in mind it's easier to tell someone to do something than to stand in their shoes and do it yourself.

 

No {censored} sherlock. What I'm telling you is what I would do. Everyone that knows me and works with me knows I shoot straight. If you promise to pay me, you'd better freaking pay me. That's not being a dick, it's just the reality.

 

 

Yes, I will put it all on the table this week, and I'll take his gig $$ until it's paid. He can either take it or leave it.

 

Well good - it's about time apparently.

 

 

It's a little know secret that that over the years, I have kept this band going for one reason... ME. I want to play, I want to sound good and I want to put on a good show. Am I being used, or am I using the other guys as a vehicle for my goals? It's all about perspective!

 

I don't know, you tell me? You did post this as an issue on a message board, looking for guidance. So obviously you are not completely happy with the way things have turned out?

 

 

Like I said in the original post, I'm curious to see where others draw the line. I now see that most of you would cut & run. Easy answer. What you're not talking about is the fallout of replacing half the band with little time to get new guys gig-ready.

 

Cut and run my ass - I would just want my damn money, that was promised.

 

Dude, you're gonna have to figure this one out for yourself - I'm just shooting straight and trying to help.

 

You wanna keep being passive aggressive in your dealings, then you'll continue to get this kind of treatment.

 

Good luck, you'll need it.

[stegre]

Anytime I've bought gear, I hold onto it and pay the members a lesser cut.

 

Time to start auditioning.

 

Stefan

 

coverbandbook.com

[Ender_rpm]

Well, you have gigs coming up, and I assume you are getting paid for them? Who handles the money? After this long, a "wage garnishment" may be appropriate. Then again, if he doesn't want to do that, sell the marshall and tell him he is expected to have an amp for the next gig. If both he and the bass player want to run PODs, its actually easier (depending on your system) to run FOH sound. On stage is a bit trickier, but 2-3 monitor mixes (vocal heavy, bass heavy, guitar heavy) should do it. Or see if he is willing to put gig money towards in ears? Just random musing..

[ckcondon]

First off, Thanks to those who have shared their opinions. That's all I've asked for. I know they vary and I'll take it all for what it's worth.

Wades, I'm glad you have such control over the people you work with... Remind me not to piss you off. Nice condescending attitude!

Situations are never simply black & white... I'm just working through the shades of grey.

I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

[wades_keys]

Notice how resistant he is to the most basic of expectations, basically calling us dicks for expecting the money that was promised, and "quitters" cuz we would leave the poor band in the lurch.

 

Typical passive-aggressive behavior.

 

I think the real bottom line here, is he made his bed.

 

He can lay in it.

 

Condescending? How? {censored}ing A, you passive aggressive types are just too much.

 

It IS black and white - you owe me money, then you {censored}ing pay it?

 

It's got nothing to do with pissing me off or anything like that; is what you are saying is you are worried about "pissing him off" to get your damn money?

 

I'm actually trying to help you dude - and it really is a simple thing, same as if I don't pay my rent, or my student loan, or anything. There are consequences - such is life.

 

You wanna give someone a free ride? That's cool - but don't bitch about it, right?

 

Peace, out.