Starting a band........a primer

[GreenAsJade]

You have to also be _friggin_ patient. It seems to take _forever_ to find like-minded people.

 

Part of this time-that-it-takes is learning that you need to quickly weed out people who aren't. You can waste endless time trying to make things work with the people you have, 'cause it's so hard to find "the right" people.

 

But does it ever? If things aren't working ... people aren't "like minded" ... can this ever be rescued?

 

At the moment, my (limited) experience is tell me "probably not". The very first foundations are 'the right poeple'.

 

(I guess that you can still have some fun playing some music even though it's not working properly, while you wait for the right people to be found?)

 

Rambling. It's a tough one.

 

GaJ

[axepilot]

 

You have to also be _friggin_ patient. It seems to take _forever_ to find like-minded people. Part of this time-that-it-takes is learning that you need to quickly weed out people who aren't. You can waste endless time trying to make things work with the people you have, 'cause it's so hard to find "the right" people. But does it ever? If things aren't working ... people aren't "like minded" ... can this ever be rescued? At the moment, my (limited) experience is tell me "probably not". The very first foundations are 'the right poeple'. (I guess that you can still have some fun playing some music even though it's not working properly, while you wait for the right people to be found?) Rambling. It's a tough one. GaJ

 

 

Good thoughts, man. You are never going to form Utopia with a band. Musicians in general are more individualistic than the average Joe. It comes down to being able to work with people in general, accept the differerences, and steer those differences to the benefit of the band. A band of clones would be one dimensional and boring as hell. Differences and a little conflict add spice to mix and can make magic - as long as the players are mature enough to realize that and do what it takes to make that magic happen.

 

Just realize that there are going to be conflicting opinions...............but make sure that everyone is mature enough as a musician to accept that and use that for the better.

[rhat]

if you are young in high school..... think about getting aquainted with some of these people. Its the best talent well you can find in high school. Drummers and singers and horn players. While they may not run in your social circles, you will find some that are great rock and roll bandmates.

rat

[strathound]

 

I basically agree with the original poster's guideleines. I have never known a band where everyone does an equal amount of work. The person who does the most work, esp the adminstrative and booking tasks, should be, and probably is, the leader, simply because they are the one who cares the most. Bandmembers who do not do the same amount of work as the hardest working person have not earned equal control of the band. On the other hand, a good leader listens and incorporates input from others. If the band is free of addicts, then a moderate amount of beer drinking and smoking is OK, if the motivation is not primarilly money. After all, its about having fun. Its a strictly business situation, then yes, treat it like a job and stay totally straight.

 

 

That's basically what killed my last band. I was doing a majority of the work, and despite enjoying working with good friends, it began to make me bitter. And it was hurting the friendship too. I wish I was a bigger person who could look past who is doing what, etc. But, in the end, I had to get out of there because I was pissed all the time. Next time around, I'll do it differently. Check the sig.

[mstreck]

I have never known a band where everyone does an equal amount of work. The person who does the most work, esp the adminstrative and booking tasks, should be, and probably is, the leader, simply because they are the one who cares the most. Bandmembers who do not do the same amount of work as the hardest working person have not earned equal control of the band. On the other hand, a good leader listens and incorporates input from others.

 

It's when someone starts to slack that you have problems in a "democratic" band. Someone else is going to have to step in and do the work.

 

Let's not forget that some band members will be better suited to fill a particular role than others. Someone may be able to "sell the band" well enough to fill the calendar with gigs, but might not be the best person to lead rehearsal.

 

I prefer to do the "behind the scenes" stuff, anyhow... I'd rather spend my free time doing the MySpace, graphics, promo stuff, etc. and let everyone else deal with the other headaches.

 

 

Mike

[SH3MP]

 

That's basically what killed my last band. I was doing a majority of the work, and despite enjoying working with good friends, it began to make me bitter. And it was hurting the friendship too. I wish I was a bigger person who could look past who is doing what, etc. But, in the end, I had to get out of there because I was pissed all the time. Next time around, I'll do it differently. Check the sig.

 

 

So you get bitter when you do the majority of the work, yet advocate a "benevolent dictatorship" ?

[strathound]

 

So you get bitter when you do the majority of the work, yet advocate a "benevolent dictatorship" ?

 

 

The two aren't related. The bitterness, I've already admitted, was a character flaw of mine. Like I said, I wish I had been able to not let it bother me. But it did. The second is related to how decisions in the band are made. The guys I'm playing with now have a clear leader, and I like it that way. I can show up and do my thing. I give my opinion now and then. But at the end of the day, it isn't my band. And they don't have to take my advice. I know what my role is. And things are clear. So I don't have questions in my head about anything. And that's nice.

 

But keep in mind that there is a difference between a Dictatorship and a Benevolent Dictatorship. It has to do with how well the leader is able to listen and keep people happy. I don't think a straight dictatorship would ever work because people would just get tired of the bs and move on.

 

Shemp huh? I should have picked up on that before. Good to see you on here Scott. Hope you are doing well.

[SH3MP]

 

The two aren't related.

 

 

Sure they are. Dictatorship, benevolent or not, insinuates one person making all the calls, hence, doing the majority of the work.

[elbow]

 

....making all the calls, hence, doing the majority of the work.....

 

 

I don't get how making decisions means you do the majority of the work. I mean, I guess it could be that way, but it might mean you also make decisions about how the work is divided and assigned as well.. wouldn't it?

[GreenAsJade]

 

I was doing a majority of the work, and despite enjoying working with good friends, it began to make me bitter.

 

 

The wierd thing is that you can recogninse this, and yet you can't simply stop doing all the work!

 

I know that situation. It's because you care the most. If you stop doing the work, things stop happening, and it falls to pieces. That's when it's bad.

 

(I too can't see the connection between making the decisions and doing the work. If it's a dictatorship, then you make the decisions that say the _others_ do the work!)

 

GaJ

[strathound]

Sure they are. Dictatorship, benevolent or not, insinuates one person making all the calls, hence, doing the majority of the work.

 

The issue isn't the amount of work. That isn't what created the bitterness in me Scott. It was a combination of uneven division of labor and a democratic (even) decision making process. It was kind of like living in a communist society where one farmer is working hard to improve his land and build infrastructure to benefit all the members of the community. Meanwhile, another farmer sits on his butt and then actively votes against initiatives started by the first farmer. Eventually, the first farmer becomes bitter because his vision of what he wants for himself is different than what the others want and he's tired of the political battle. Worse, sometimes those very farmers who are sitting on their butts prevent him from doing the things he wants to do with their share of the democratic vote. And the one with the fire in his belly eventually will make a move to remove that obstacle. Or they take their vision and just forget about it and keep their mouth shut. I've never been able to keep my mouth shut.

[wades_keys]

I don't get how making decisions means you do the majority of the work. I mean, I guess it could be that way, but it might mean you also make decisions about how the work is divided and assigned as well.. wouldn't it?

+10000.

 

The 2 are not related in my experience.

 

I guide a lot of the decisions in our band, but i don't dictate them.

 

Examples:

I wanted a whiteboard at rehearsals, mentioned it to the guys - good idea. I got us the whiteboard without further ado.

 

When practice is over and people are just milling about or ready to leave, I am the one who asks everyone what songs we are working on for next week. I then follow that up with an email to everyone, and write them in the "working list" section on the whiteboard.

 

When no one else can think of a new song to learn, I always suggest one - to get the ball rolling. I encourage and sometimes playfully insist on their input "I can't pick ALL the songs".

 

If a tune is not working for us and no one else has spoken, or if they have but it didn't result in any action - I am the one that puts a star next to the tune and asks everyone if we need to drop it.

 

If we seem to be stagnating on the same songs for more than 2 practices, I encourage discussion about what our timeframe goals are. I'll say something like "Guys, do you think we can be ready with our setlists by January" - I'll have done the math too: "At 2 songs a week, we have 31 here, it'll take us 5 more weeks to get our 40 songs".

 

So the goals are there from the start, but never dictated but rather agreed upon after being put forth at the RIGHT TIME - by myself.

 

None of these things involves much work, and certainly no dictation.

 

I model my role in band after managerial techniques I have learned in my career, and it has been working very well so far, with no egos or "power" struggles.

 

If you asked my bandmates who the leader is, they would probably say there is none.

 

I like that - this means the management is working from within, through persuasion and occasionally persistence.

[GreenAsJade]

Ohhhhh - you were doing all the work _and_ *not* getting to the be benevolent dictator?! That really sucks!

 

Another example of why flat democracy in a band doesn't work The sweat equity means you should have been the "benevolent dictator" ... or in management terms ... the "chairman of the board"

 

GaJ

[strathound]

Just so everyone knows, SH3MP is a good friend of mine from the old band. He's a fantastic guitar player and he's been in the business for a long long time, a lot longer than me. I learned a ton from him about being a musician and playing in a band while we were playing together. I really appreciate that man. And hey, we may just have to disagree on this, and that's cool.

[SH3MP]

Ohhhhh - you were doing all the work _and_ *not* getting to the be benevolent dictator?! That really sucks! Another example of why flat democracy in a band doesn't work The sweat equity means you should have been the "benevolent dictator" ... or in management terms ... the "chairman of the board" GaJ

 

If one wants the position of benevolent dictator, one must prove his/her passion and capability to be elected it first, like Wades description above.

 

Problem is the definition of "majority of work". One person may think he's doing all the work when he does not consider all of the other things that need to be done to keep a band going.

[strathound]

Ohhhhh - you were doing all the work _and_ *not* getting to the be benevolent dictator?! That really sucks! Another example of why flat democracy in a band doesn't work The sweat equity means you should have been the "benevolent dictator" ... or in management terms ... the "chairman of the board" GaJ

 

Not exactly. SH3MP did as much as I did. But there were two other votes in our little democracy.

[SH3MP]

 

(I too can't see the connection between making the decisions and doing the work. If it's a dictatorship, then you make the decisions that say the _others_ do the work!) GaJ

 

 

Agreed. I didn't really think that through.

[GreenAsJade]

I tip my hat to a person who can say that!

[stegre]

Interesing to see all the posts about management. And management begins with ourselves, but also applies to groups. What is diifficult to determine here is the level and desire of those involved, whether it is to get drunk, and pick up some groupies or to create meaningful music or somewhere between.

 

Assuming, you are serious, go out and buy the book "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey. Here is a quick synopsis from Wikipedia:

 

The Seven Habits

 

The chapters are dedicated to each of the habits, which are represented by the following imperatives:

 

1. Be Proactive. Here, Covey emphasizes the original sense of the term "reactive" as coined by Victor Frankl. You can either be proactive or reactive when it comes to how you act about certain things. Being "proactive" means taking responsibility for everything in life. When you're reactive, you blame other people and circumstances for obstacles or problems. Initiative, and taking action will then follow. Covey shows how man is different from other animals in that he has self-consciousness. He has the ability to detach himself and observe his own self, think about his thoughts. He goes on to say how this attribute enables him. It gives him the power not to be affected by his circumstances. Covey talks about 'Stimulus and Response'. Between Stimulus and Response, we have the power of free will to choose our response.

 

2. Begin with the End In Mind. This chapter is about setting long-term goals based on "true-south principles." Covey recommends to formulate a "personal vision statement" to document one's perception of one's own vision in life. He sees visualization as an important tool to develop this. He also deals with organizational vision statements, which he claims to be more effective if developed and supported by all members of an organization, rather than being prescribed.

 

3. Put First Things First. Here, Covey describes a framework for prioritizing work that is aimed at short-term goals, at the expense of tasks that appear not to be urgent, but are in fact very important. Delegation is presented as an important part of time management. Successful delegation, according to Covey, focuses on results and benchmarks that are to be agreed in advance, rather than on prescribing detailed work plans.

 

4. Think Win/Win describes an attitude whereby mutually beneficial solutions are sought, that satisfy the needs of oneself, or, in the case of a conflict, both parties involved.

 

5. Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood. Covey warns that giving out advice before having empathetically understood a person and their situation will likely result in that advice being rejected. Thoroughly reading out your own autobiography will decrease the chance of establishing a working communication.

 

6. Synergize describes a way of working in teams. Apply effective problem solving. Apply collaborative decision making. Value differences. Build on divergent strengths. Leverage creative collaboration. Embrace and leverage innovation. It is put forth that, when this is pursued as a habit, the result of the teamwork will exceed the sum of what each of the members could have achieved on their own.

[easyliver]

Just wanted to say thanks too all you cats. I'm in graduate school for biology which EATS up my time, but I'm in the process of getting a group of guys together, both veteran and virgin, to play at a few local bars. I just wanna have fun, ya know, but I've had to really feel my way through communication issues, opinions, the other guys' obligations (i.e. the bass player's 3 kids, all under 5 y.o.)

 

Again, great tips for us newbies from others who've been around...thanks.

[Kuhnfyoozed]

 

I don't get how making decisions means you do the majority of the work. I mean, I guess it could be that way, but it might mean you also make decisions about how the work is divided and assigned as well.. wouldn't it?

 

+1

Making decisions could include deciding to delegate work to other bandmates.

 

I think, from my limited experience, that having a leader who takes everyone's opinion into account, yet makes the final call, is a good method. If you're in a band with 8 or 9 people, its going to be hard to get everyone to agree on something, but if everyone can have their opinion considered in the final decision then they will hopefully not feel any ill will about decisions going the other way.

 

Edit: Late to the party. Sorry!

[wades_keys]

Interesing to see all the posts about management. And management begins with ourselves, but also applies to groups. What is diifficult to determine here is the level and desire of those involved, whether it is to get drunk, and pick up some groupies or to create meaningful music or somewhere between. Assuming, you are serious, go out and buy the book "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey. Here is a quick synopsis from Wikipedia:

Great stuff there - thanks.