And yet another "What would you do?"

[frogmonkey]

Definitely go with singer 2.

It's not unethical to drop singer 1, unless maybe she's already gotten the band name tattooed on her backside. If a new band member isn't working out, then they aren't working out and it's time to move on.

I might consider finding a new D, too. Sounds like D's rapid exit plan is as much a problem as finding a singer.

[Dessalines]

This has played out over the last month in my project. In hindsight, it appears that many, many, many mistakes were made in handling this situation. I'm not proud to having participated in any of this, but it is what it is. I'm open to any advice and comments you might have and would appreciate your outside perspectives on this series of unfortunate events. What would you have done, and when? I'm either A, B, or C. The names have been changed to protect the innocent, as well as the guilty. Discuss. ________ The Cast: Two year old all-originals band with female (if it matters) singer/songwriter, plus bandmembers we'll call A, B, C, D, & E (E is the singer). Additional characters/victims as needed. ________ Scene One: Singer E decides to spend more time with family and resigns from the band. A, B, C, & D are all bummed out because we like each other and the band is beginning to take off. Band runs ads and sends e-mails to known area singers. Singer 1 replies to ad and band meets with her to discuss. She is new in town and seems very nice, but has no experience. Band gives her CDs and decides to schedule audition. Singer 2 (who has some buzz going on locally) replies to e-mails and band offers to schedule meeting with her. No reply to that invite. Singer 1 auditions and it goes poorly. Bandmember D states he will quit unless the band gets back to gigging in reasonably short order, and no way can Singer 1 do it. Bandmember C thinks Singer 1 can do it, and just needs some help to get there. A & B think she is over her head. Singer 1 is very likable, so it is decided to give her another chance, as she is the only game in town at this point and pressure from D is making everyone aware that he will bail if we don't get it together soon. Bandmembers A & B meet with Singer 1 for coaching on the songs. She shows minimal improvement. Audition Singer 1 second time, she does considerably better, but not gig-ready or even close. No other replies to ads, etc. so band takes vote on giving her a shot. A, B, & C vote yes, let's give her a shot, D reluctantly goes along with majority, but still does not think she can do it. Singer 1 is invited to join band. Big band party. Yea. Very next day Singer 2 contacts band and wants to audition. Forgot to reply to invite, but is quite interested. She is informed that Singer 1 was invited into the band yesterday, sorry, crap. She says thanks anyway. Band is now bummed again because they thought Singer 2 would have been quite good, based upon some recordings. A & B meet with Singer 1 for coaching three more times and minimal improvement is shown. Band schedules first full rehearsal with Singer 1. It goes worse than first audition. D leaves town for two weeks. A, B, & C talk and are scared {censored}less about the prospect of taking the stage with Singer 1 after the rehearsal due to Singer 1's vocal non-standard "renditions" of the music. It appears that Singer 1 forgot everything from work sessions and is leaving considerable doubt that she is a singer at all, but in all fairness, she had just received some bad personal news and it might have thrown her off at rehearsal. B & D are convinced that she does not just need help on songs, she needs singing lessons, no matter how nice she is. Singer 1 goes out of town for a week. Bandmembers A & B see project crumbling before their eyes, so secretly ask Singer 2 to meet. She agrees and turns out she is a multi-instrumentalist and songwriter as well. They give her some CDs. Bandmembers A & B do not inform C & D about meeting Singer 2 because C & D would consider it a very, very, very bad thing to do, roughly equated with marital infidelity by C & D. Singer 2 really digs band's material and wants to get together with A & B. A & B agree and Singer 2 totally kills on everything she sings. Exhibits no problems and adds very tasteful things to songs that improve them. A & B contemplate suicide. D gets back to town. A & B come clean with C & D about meeting Singer 2. C & D are highly pissed at A & B, but want to meet Singer 2 and run through some songs, anyway. That happens and A, B, C, & D are also very impressed with Singer 2. You might think you know where things are going at this point, but no. A, B, C, & D are feeling very guility about their "infidelity" and commence tearing into each other about inviting Singer 1 into the band too early, and secretly meeting with Singer 2, and going behind each other's backs and threatening to quit, etc. A, B, C, & D decide original Singer E is to blame for quitting, but E is having none of it and this does little good. Singer E offers advice that the band should immediately communicate with Singer 1 that she is in over her head and it's not working out, and then hiring Singer 2. A & B think that's best course and don't want to risk losing Singer 2. C thinks the band should work with Singer 1 for a couple of months to see if she can get up to speed, since she was invited into the band and all. D agrees with C, but reminds everyone the clock's ticking (on his quitting thing) and even though he personally does not think she can do it, we should continue with her due to commitment. A, B, C get upset at D over the threatened quitting thing. A, B, C, & D's wives weigh in. Two wives agree with Singer E, that it's time to cut the cord with Singer 1 and go with 2. 1 wife is undecided, 1 wife thinks A, B, C, & D are "{censored}ers". It is decided that there will be two more rehearsals with Singer 1 to try to assess if she will be able to do it. Meanwhile, A & B are worried that Singer 2 will bail due to the indecision, and would not blame her if she did. Meanwhile, Singer 1 still has no idea... And no, this is not our first band!

Are you in a band or what? You sound like children. Take singer two and move on.

[Gary in NJ]

It's taken me nearly 20 hours to flow-chart this and get all of the math right (Member E, Singer 2....my goodness, no wonder you're so confused), but there a simple solution. Choose the right singer - the one you like most - which according to the flowchart and calculations is number 2.

[fatcatinahat]

1.- Drop Singer 1
2.- Get Singer 2
3.- Tell D to read a Zen book or something. A little pressure to get things going is good, but it seems this guys is throwing too much pressure on you and is making you take bad decisions.
4.- A, B & C should not be scared of D's threats. If he can't wait, then let him go. Hastiness is not a good advisor.
5.- Invite all the wives to a party and make your own little orgy.

[Khatru]

1.- Drop Singer 1 2.- Get Singer 2 3.- Tell D to read a Zen book or something. A little pressure to get things going is good, but it seems this guys is throwing too much pressure on you and is making you take bad decisions. 4.- A, B & C should not be scared of D's threats. If he can't wait, then let him go. Hastiness is not a good advisor. 5.- Invite all the wives to a party and make your own little orgy.

 

 

1 & 2 - done

3 - debating on telling D to pound sand up his arse

4 - only C is, A & B are leading sand pounding debate

5 - only interested in mine

 

I personally think you put an entire project at risk when you are afraid to let someone go who is not cutting it. This experience once again reinforces that notion in my mind.

[Janx]

Definitely go with singer 2. It's not unethical to drop singer 1, unless maybe she's already gotten the band name tattooed on her backside. If a new band member isn't working out, then they aren't working out and it's time to move on. I might consider finding a new D, too. Sounds like D's rapid exit plan is as much a problem as finding a singer.

 

 

I concur. D is trying to control the band with threats of leaving. He'll pull it again. Its especially obvious when D's excuse is "I want us gigging soon" yet he insists on sticking with 1, which is counter to that goal.

 

As for the wives thing, they're opinion matters as much as ours. We're not in your band. Neither are they, though they are closer to it, since they are married to the members, and concerned about their spouse's happiness more than us forum members.

 

Fact is, who here doesn't talk to their spouse about what's going on in their life, at work, in the band? Who doesn't expect to get an opionion on the situation, after such a conversation?

 

If you talk to any person about your problem, you will get the following effect:

they will agree with you OR they will disagree

 

From there, you're either going to stick to your guns, or change your mind to their way of thinking. Odds are higher that you'll stick to your guns.

 

Later, after the situation, you'll find that the choice you made was good or bad, and that they were also right or wrong. My recommendation is that if your choices keep on turning out bad, and their opinion keeps on being the "right" one, you need to start doing what they suggest, because you suck at problem solving.

 

I'm wary of the yoko paranoia, because being married means you WILL get an opinion on what choices your contemplating, and to some extent their opinion does matter. Heck, your choices and actions affect them, if nothing else, by how they percieve you.

 

It's one thing to have a spouse that tries to dictate how to play, what to play, when they're not in the band, and they don't have any music background. That's like us advising doctors on the best way to do surgery.

 

It's another thing for a spouse to have an opinion on how to deal with a problem band member. That's a people issue, not a music issue. Consider how many times husbands "advise" their wives on how to deal with jerks at work. It's the same thing.

[SpaceNorman]

 

D is trying to control the band with threats of leaving. He'll pull it again.

 

 

You raise a good point about bandmates who pull the faux "I quit" approach in an attempt to get his way.

 

Personally, I refuse to negotiate with anybody who pulls that stunt. The couple of times it's happened to me - I simply look at my other bandmates and said "Well, we've got an opening to fill" ... and reach for my cell phone. I dial my own work # - and have a conversation with a "replacement" player right on the spot. When I'm done with the "conversation" - I turn to my other bandmates and tell 'em I've got a lead on a possible replacement who'll be at our next rehearsal to audition. I then turn to the bandmate who pulled that crap and ask if they need help loading out.

 

The matter of fact abruptness of this approach usually stops the guy dead in his tracks because that is virtually NEVER the response he was expecting. IF the guy falls over himself with apologies and promises that he won't pull that crap again - I may reconsider. I will not be held hostage by passive aggressive types - and would rather have the relationship end right then and there - than to encourage more of that behavior by tolerating it.

[Steadfastly]

You have two choices: You can have you band break up or you can get rid of singer 1 and tell singer 2 that she has the job. I know what I'd do.

[Khatru]

You raise a good point about bandmates who pull the faux "I quit" approach in an attempt to get his way. Personally, I refuse to negotiate with anybody who pulls that stunt. The couple of times it's happened to me - I simply look at my other bandmates and said "Well, we've got an opening to fill" ... and reach for my cell phone. I dial my own work # - and have a conversation with a "replacement" player right on the spot. When I'm done with the "conversation" - I turn to my other bandmates and tell 'em I've got a lead on a possible replacement who'll be at our next rehearsal to audition. I then turn to the bandmate who pulled that crap and ask if they need help loading out. The matter of fact abruptness of this approach usually stops the guy dead in his tracks because that is virtually NEVER the response he was expecting. IF the guy falls over himself with apologies and promises that he won't pull that crap again - I may reconsider. I will not be held hostage by passive aggressive types - and would rather have the relationship end right then and there - than to encourage more of that behavior by tolerating it.

Excellent advice, Norman. I think I'll do that next time, and I'm sure there will be a next time.

And for those who missed it, we did let the first singer go and hired the second one. Who knows how long she will be there, but at least she sounds good while she lasts.

I tried to write the original post in a fairly neutral way because I wanted to hear other opinions that hopefully backed up what I thought, since I could not understand some of my bandmates logic on this.

If I'm crazy, at least I have some good company here. How the hell do you keep a singer who can't sing?

[goosefartfan]

I'm curious, since so much guilt and energy was spent on not wanting to hurt her...in the end how did she respond? was all your energy wasted on worry?

[Deeprig9]

Mrs. Peacock did it with the lead pipe in the Study.

[rocket888]

When I started playing music professionally a long time ago, an old wizened bluesman said to me "always try to play with people better than you...they will lift up your music and make you better."

The reverse is also true.

Singer #1:cop:

[bostonwal]

This is pretty pathetic and if Singer #2 gets a whiff of this inability to act she ain't gonna stick around. Then you'll be out two singers (three if you count E) and back to square zero.

[Khatru]

I was concerned that through our inaction we would end up with no one, but it did not seem to work out that way. It is a strong project musically, and I think the new singer was fundimentally interested in the music. Luckily, that was enough to keep her around while we did such a mash-up at changing the lineup.

The original singer and the new singer were very supportive as we informed the one who could not sing that ...she REALLY could not sing. I think they both knew that we trying to avoid hurting her feelings, but both the original singer and the one who is now in the band (even I have lost track of the letters and numbers!) thought it was very silly to just not come out with it and deal with it sooner.

We did one last rehearsal which went poorly, and as a group told her that she was not going to be able to do it. It did hurt her feelings, but she did not get angry at us, as far as we know. I'm sure that those flaming bags of dog{censored} we found on our front doorsteps the next evening were just a coincidence.

FWIW, 4 out of 5 wives favored making the change too. Wife 5 was just kidding when she called us {censored}ers, evidently. We found this out after the fact! I kind of favor the notion of the wives staying out of the band's business, but when you've been married for 10-20 years, I guess that's not easy to do.

I appreciate the advice you've all given and 99% of it I agree with completely. Why this occurred in this way is disturbing to me and I suspect it will create problems in the future as well. Whoever suggested that democracy is a piss-poor model for running a band hit the nail on the head!

Off to new adventures...