Members jmullen45 Posted December 6, 2011 Members Share Posted December 6, 2011 Hello everyone, I've been a long time lurker but have yet to post on this forum (this is a fantastic place by the way!) and I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members doezer Posted December 6, 2011 Members Share Posted December 6, 2011 Hi.. in short. youve just gotta sit there and suck it up!! you have absolutely no comeback whatsoever. as you say there is no legal contract. its all verbal word of mouth, with them doing the paying and you doing the playing.. pity. but thats the way it is my way too,... and yes they do get cancelled from time to time, at the whim of a bar manager. nothinng more i can say other than dont try to let it get to you thats why im busy targetting agencies. then i let them deal with the dissapointments and just take gigs from them as much as possible.. although even they can get word thats gigs are cancelled too.. d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 6, 2011 Members Share Posted December 6, 2011 I don't use local contracts for the clubs /restaurants I play , but I never leave town without one. I also use contracts for corporate and private party deals. And yes, this has happened to me. Back when i was on the road full time, we showed up once in the middle of a tour to a club where we were supposed to play for 6 nights only to find a lock on the door. Seems they were shut down for repeatedly serving minors. Another time, we showed up in the middle of another tour for another 6 night gig to find a smoldering hole in the ground where the club used to stand. And in Canada, we were playing this little rat hole club in the middle of Nowhere, Saskatchewan in the dead of winter to fill time for two concerts we were to play, one Friday in Regina and one Saturday in Saskatoon. And while we were in that little town playing to almost nobody, the security and maintenance workers for the concert facilities joined strike of other municipal employees and both shows were cancelled. In every case, we had to drive back home empty handed, at our expense, because we couldn't afford to live out on the road and kill a week. It sucks, but as you said, it's just part of the whole package. Today, I'm fortunate enough to play mostly established places that are in no danger of going under, but a couple of them are a bit sketchy and I wouldn't be surprised of they folded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted December 6, 2011 Members Share Posted December 6, 2011 Unfortunately if you don't have a contract and the lawyers to back it up there's not much you can do. What's been up with me lately.... I was in a band gig where the venue was closed at 3 pm the day of the show. Band had sold 150 tickets and they had to find a new venue and inform the ticket holders all in 3 or 4 hours. Or how about showing up to a gig and the manager says we don't need your services tonight but we'll pay you half - of course that's rare. Usually they don't pay you anything. Or I had a November solo gig, and get a call a week before and they tell me they've got a Xmas party and they will reschedule. That's all in the last three months. That's why on the big money gigs I put my contracts through the Musician's Union. At least they've got the funds to pay the lawyer's fees. Sometimes the thought of going to court makes people pay up. Of course you can't get blood from a turnip, or from a bankrupt club. Sorry to hear about your plight. Here's hoping you get some last minute Xmas gigs. Maybe get the word out and you could pcik up some private parties. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 That's why on the big money gigs I put my contracts through the Musician's Union. At least they've got the funds to pay the lawyer's fees. Since when? I haven't belonged to the union for many years, partly because when I got stiffed with a AF of M contract, I reported it and they said they'd handle it. Two weeks later, I asked if they got my money for me. "Oh, no" I was told, "we aren't a legal service. You'll have to hire an attorney for that." So I asked them what they meant when they said they'd "handle it." The nice gent on the phone said "Well, we told them if they didn't pay you, they wouldn't get any more union bands." Needless to say, I never saw a dime. I also asked them if they had any bookings and they said I needed a booking agent for that. Turns out all they did was pretty much take my money and tell me where I couldn't play. I dropped out of the union shortly after that. Hopefully your union has a lot more clout than that, or maybe the policy has changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 Since when? I haven't belonged to the union for many years, partly because when I got stiffed with a AF of M contract, I reported it and they said they'd handle it. Two weeks later, I asked if they got my money for me. "Oh, no" I was told, "we aren't a legal service. You'll have to hire an attorney for that." So I asked them what they meant when they said they'd "handle it." The nice gent on the phone said "Well, we told them if they didn't pay you, they wouldn't get any more union bands." Needless to say, I never saw a dime. I also asked them if they had any bookings and they said I needed a booking agent for that. Turns out all they did was pretty much take my money and tell me where I couldn't play. I dropped out of the union shortly after that. Hopefully your union has a lot more clout than that, or maybe the policy has changed? You certainly have a point there. Not all AFM unions are created equal, there's lots that are dysfunctional and weak. And even within a particular union there are good years and bad. I recall a time with my union back when discos were becoming popular. Several clubs around town were hiring bands and DJ's. Some of the nightclubs wanted to have the bands play a little less and perhaps pay them a little less. The union "laid down the law" and said that the clubs couldn't have bands if they had a DJ !!! You guessed it, the clubs got rid of the bands and went all DJ. So perhaps I'll rephrase. I file big contracts under the union because if the AFM guy is worth his salt he can make it sound like they will sue. It's just another tool, but as noted it's not foolproof. The crooks almost always win. That reminds me; many, many years ago my band got stiffed out of a weeks wages in a Holiday Inn in Boise. The band guys wanted to sue for the money. I just laughed and said do you really want to go up against the Holiday Inn lawyers? Gotta have pockets as deep as the ocean for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 That's funny. Yeah, suing Holiday Inn wouldn't be a good move. Once, the union did help me, but it was in Canada. We got a last minute gig in Regina, Saskatchewan as they had a band cancel, It was a two week gig, the first week was Mon-Wednesday as usual and then Thurs-Sat opening for David Clayton Thomas. We got to the club; it was a huge place with a giant stage. Seems they were used to 8 to 10 piece show bands from Minneapolis and Chicago, mostly black funk bands wearing fur boots and capes and such. Here we show up our lowly little 6 piece band of white guys wearing nice street clothes playing top 40 rock and old R&B. We made it through the first week, but we got fired for the second one as soon as the guy could find another band. We said fine; it was 40 below zero and we hated it anyway. Just pay us an we'll go. Well, he didn't want to pay us for the second week. So we called the union, and the union guy came down and assured the club owner that if we didn't get the balance, in cash, within the hour, he would have a bunch of union guys come down and block the entrance of the club when the new band showed up and they wouldn't be playing. We got our cash and we left. It left me with the impression that the union in Canada has far more clout than here. I ended up putting the equipment trailer through the back window of my car on the way home, but that's another story. I played up your way in the 80s- Whistler, Vancouver, Chilliwack, lots of places in BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted December 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 7, 2011 Unfortunately if you don't have a contract and the lawyers to back it up there's not much you can do. What's been up with me lately.... I was in a band gig where the venue was closed at 3 pm the day of the show. Band had sold 150 tickets and they had to find a new venue and inform the ticket holders all in 3 or 4 hours. Or how about showing up to a gig and the manager says we don't need your services tonight but we'll pay you half - of course that's rare. Usually they don't pay you anything. Or I had a November solo gig, and get a call a week before and they tell me they've got a Xmas party and they will reschedule. That's all in the last three months. That's why on the big money gigs I put my contracts through the Musician's Union. At least they've got the funds to pay the lawyer's fees. Sometimes the thought of going to court makes people pay up. Of course you can't get blood from a turnip, or from a bankrupt club. Sorry to hear about your plight. Here's hoping you get some last minute Xmas gigs. Maybe get the word out and you could pcik up some private parties. Good luck. I guess Canada is different, but in the US, if the value is under $5000, you go to small claims court, and there are no lawyers....it is 'mano y mano' as it were, head to head,not unlike Judge Judy, except maybe without the 'tough old broad on the bench' ...and the little guy doesn't have to know the law, just present their side of the story...factually, succinctly... I have won in small claims, and I have lost in small claims...but, it is the place to deal with someone like Holiday Inn, where having a legal expert isn't going to help... And Iwill echo Blue Strat's dissatisfaction withthe Union...In NYC at least when I was starting out, you pretty much had to have a union card to do ANYTHING...when I moved ot LA, I went to transfer my member ship here, and they cahrged me a bunch of $...and then when I asked about getting gigs...or benefits...they handed me a booklet which after about twenty pages of legalese, I realized said...'boy you done been took, and you iz SOL...see ya!'. The Union here catered strictly to the studio and Philharmonic players... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 I played a gig 5 years with a guy Tues nights in a local place. He'd been there 5 years longer for a total of 10 years... After last Labor Day the owner's daughter, who does not care for us and had been "taking charge" from her mom, called the other guy up and said "Don't come in" about 5 hours before we usually started... And that was it. Ten years and down the tubes... We had played all kinds of charity, birthdays for the owners, personal private parties, events, etc. for free over the years because we we're great guys. The daughter decided to save the $100 and we got booted. Never mind we never once got an additional dime when the place was packed. The reasons for this: Economy - the patronage has been dwindling over the course of the recession, the daughter wanted the extra $$$'s for herself, the bartender had been skimming a bit too much... None of it our fault and we had basically been carrying them over the course of the decade (no price increase in 10 years). It is what it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevolives Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 I played a gig 5 years with a guy Tues nights in a local place. He'd been there 5 years longer for a total of 10 years... After last Labor Day the owner's daughter, who does not care for us and had been "taking charge" from her mom, called the other guy up and said "Don't come in" about 5 hours before we usually started... And that was it. Ten years and down the tubes... We had played all kinds of charity, birthdays for the owners, personal private parties, events, etc. for free over the years because we we're great guys. The daughter decided to save the $100 and we got booted. Never mind we never once got an additional dime when the place was packed. The reasons for this: Economy - the patronage has been dwindling over the course of the recession, the daughter wanted the extra $$$'s for herself, the bartender had been skimming a bit too much... None of it our fault and we had basically been carrying them over the course of the decade (no price increase in 10 years). It is what it is... That is just unbelieveable, Bar managers seem to take great pleasure in f'ing with musicians. A friend of mine was doing a bar up the street from me, 100 bucks, maybe 150 dunno.. And the first thing the manager said when she was setting up was, DON'T EXPECT THIS TO BE AN ONGOING GIG! Now, as an artist, ur trying to get up for the gig and to hear $hit like that is enough to really make ya upset..... So stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jmullen45 Posted December 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 9, 2011 All I can say is wow to some of these stories. I have run into my fair share of difficult owners and managers over the years and clearly it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted December 10, 2011 Members Share Posted December 10, 2011 That's funny. Yeah, suing Holiday Inn wouldn't be a good move. Once, the union did help me, but it was in Canada. We got a last minute gig in Regina, Saskatchewan as they had a band cancel, It was a two week gig, the first week was Mon-Wednesday as usual and then Thurs-Sat opening for David Clayton Thomas. We got to the club; it was a huge place with a giant stage. Seems they were used to 8 to 10 piece show bands from Minneapolis and Chicago, mostly black funk bands wearing fur boots and capes and such. Here we show up our lowly little 6 piece band of white guys wearing nice street clothes playing top 40 rock and old R&B. We made it through the first week, but we got fired for the second one as soon as the guy could find another band. We said fine; it was 40 below zero and we hated it anyway. Just pay us an we'll go. Well, he didn't want to pay us for the second week. So we called the union, and the union guy came down and assured the club owner that if we didn't get the balance, in cash, within the hour, he would have a bunch of union guys come down and block the entrance of the club when the new band showed up and they wouldn't be playing. We got our cash and we left. It left me with the impression that the union in Canada has far more clout than here. I ended up putting the equipment trailer through the back window of my car on the way home, but that's another story.I played up your way in the 80s- Whistler, Vancouver, Chilliwack, lots of places in BC. Regina huh. Must have been either the Sahara Nights (we used to call it the scary nights) or that place "downtown" can't remember the name. Yes I've been stuck in Regina a few times during the winter - bloody cold. There sure was a circuit around here in the eighties. Up in Whistler they had Buffalo Bill's and The Longhorn - both pretty good places to play. But now except for a few piano lounges it's mainly DJ now in Whistler. Times have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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