Members gc24 Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Can someone tell me on CSN's song Southern Cross, if the harmony is a 3rd and 5th up or what it is? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Are you saying you can't hear and pick up the harmonies by ear? Southern Cross is a pretty straight forward song. Most songs are a bit more complex than singing major chords. I say keep listening and try singing each of the individual parts so you can hear them. Maybe one of the keyboard people here can do you a cheat sheet for you but nothing beats learning how to listen. Great song, by the way. Always well received by our audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Howie22 Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Are you saying you can't hear and pick up the harmonies by ear? I don't think it's all that uncommon. I'm not great at picking out harmony. I could certainly stand to have some ear training. I've even heard of pro singers who do some kind of duet and said it was the first time they've ever sang a harmony part. I heard Jon Bon Jovi say once that it's called Lead Singer's Disease, stating that "it's hard to hear the harmony when it's all about you." I can sympathize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 I don't think it's all that uncommon. I'm not great at picking out harmony. I could certainly stand to have some ear training. I've even heard of pro singers who do some kind of duet and said it was the first time they've ever sang a harmony part. I heard Jon Bon Jovi say once that it's called Lead Singer's Disease, stating that "it's hard to hear the harmony when it's all about you." I can sympathize. I can certainly sympathize. I was the same way. I pretty much taught myself how to listen by singing harmonies along with every song that came on the radio, whether the song had harmonies or not. I was just trying to help the OP by showing it isn't always as easy as a third or fifth harmony. There are inversions and augmented and diminished and a whole bunch of other things going on where a simple "all harmonies are a 3rd up" really doesn't always help. I keep recalling the scene in Spinal Tap where they try to harmonize "Heartbreak Hotel" at Elvis' grave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gc24 Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 If I knew what the harmonies were, I wouldn't be asking. Just trying to confirm that it's a 3rd and 5th up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bob Dey Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 I would say it's basically stacked 3rds like most harmony of those types of groups. So, yes think 1, 3, 5 as opposed to the wide interval 1, 5, 10 type of harmony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 If I knew what the harmonies were, I wouldn't be asking. Just trying to confirm that it's a 3rd and 5th up That's my point. They aren't just a third or a fifth up. You can't use a harmonizer set at a specific interval and expect good results. That is where the ears come in. Some harmonies are a third, some are a 4th some are a 5th some are a sixth, etc... If you want one specific word I can tell you. Music theory is a bit more difficult to tie down. Just like not all chords are major chords not all up a third. Your question can't be answered correctly without speaking about specific intervals on specific words. So to answer your question, no the harmonies are not a third and a fifth above the lead. Same way a guitarist wouldn't (or shouldn't) just play a C Major chord in place of a C Major13#11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 All I'm saying is to practice and learn how to hear. If someone saying a third up satisfies your question, you might be asking the wrong question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gc24 Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 I have tried a 3 and 5th up on TC Helicon Harmony G XT and on this particular song, it fits only at times. I think I will try a 3rd, 3rd up and see how that fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 4th down might work a little too. The harmonies are too complicated to use a machine like that. If you are playing it right, there are also minor chords which will clash with the 3rds harmony. 5th up or 4th down would be safer but it won't sound right, either way. Probably a good song for a backing track with the harmonies on there. That way you can get all the voices needed for the chorus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gc24 Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Yea, I'll stick with my above post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Funny I don't remember that song, but there could be reasons for that! Anyway the fifth is pretty constant but both the fifth and particularly the third could give you problems because the melody is not "diatonic". For instance in the Chorus, the fifth "melody" starts on the maj 7 of the G chord (F#) which is in the A major scale, but once the G chord comes along again, the fifth melody turns into a sixth (of the melody B note) and lands on a G natural note. And the third will also be jumping all over the place because of the G natural chord - which is not in the A major scale. So that's what is probably messing up your harmonizer. That pesky non diatonic G chord, with it's attending harmonies. But that's also what makes the song IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Funny I don't remember that song, but there could be reasons for that!Anyway the fifth is pretty constant but both the fifth and particularly the third could give you problems because the melody is not "diatonic". For instance in the Chorus, the fifth "melody" starts on the maj 7 of the G chord (F#) which is in the A major scale, but once the G chord comes along again, the fifth melody turns into a sixth (of the melody B note) and lands on a G natural note. And the third will also be jumping all over the place because of the G natural chord - which is not in the A major scale. So that's what is probably messing up your harmonizer. That pesky non diatonic G chord, with it's attending harmonies. But that's also what makes the song IMHO. ^^^ What he said ^^^ The harmonies and semi-counter medley in the chorus make the song. A harmonizer just won't work for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gc24 Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 So, even if the Harmonizer is working off of chord recognition, it still won't work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leftyjay Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 this type of song is why i love to use my midi harmony in my rig. i can play the axact notes of each harmony part and store it away like an extra instrument in the song. no matter how complicated the harmony, i can figure it out and program it. then on stage, i just sing my part and the harmonizer knows axactly what to do and when to come in. if you are using a harmonizer that works off your guitar chords, you are limited with just standard harmonies (3rd above, 5th above/below). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 I dunno GC...I do tunes all the time where I use my harmonizer in support of the song even if the original has the harmony there all the time. I can think of quite a few tunes where I kill the harmonizer and it makes no difference to the listener. You may want to consider reworking Southern Cross just a bit to fit to your gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jersey Jack Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 I dunno GC...I do tunes all the time where I use my harmonizer in support of the song even if the original has the harmony there all the time. I can think of quite a few tunes where I kill the harmonizer and it makes no difference to the listener. You may want to consider reworking Southern Cross just a bit to fit to your gear. This^^^. Make the song your own. That doesn't mean radical revision (though it could); rather, just find a workable harmony and then put a lot of soul into the performance. Unless Stephen Stills is in the audience, no one will notice. You're worried about something that is, IMHO, not that important. I've found that the best way to develop an ear for harmony is to scat-sing (think of jazz singers) over songs. Nice and easy, no pressure, no lyrics--just sing around the melodies to get the feel for their harmonic possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joshmac Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 lol I thought this was a thread asking how to SING the harmony, not how to program for his machine to sing. Curses, foiled again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 So, even if the Harmonizer is working off of chord recognition, it still won't work? Chord recognition won't work because of the reasons Shaster mentioned. Midi or backing tracks would be the only accurate way to do this unless you rework the song as mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 7, 2012 Members Share Posted August 7, 2012 lol I thought this was a thread asking how to SING the harmony, not how to program for his machine to sing. Curses, foiled again Me too, as you can tell by my first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tinfish Posted August 8, 2012 Members Share Posted August 8, 2012 baby steps!!! don't start with CSN or the Beach Boys if you're wanting to nail the harmonies....the Eagles either, now that I think on it a min!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gc24 Posted August 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 8, 2012 I have had it since it came out years ago, this is not my first dance with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted August 8, 2012 Members Share Posted August 8, 2012 LOL... Everyone is getting confused with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members leftyjay Posted August 8, 2012 Members Share Posted August 8, 2012 i listened to this song real close. if you are singing the middle vocal, it is possible to use a guitar activated harmonizer to do the 3rd about and the 5th below. if you are singing the lower vocal, then the harmonizer will have to do the lead (middle) and the 3rd above. its a fairly high vocal song during the chorus. it would be natural to grab the lower vocal part cause its in most everyones range. only thing with singing the lower part is, the harmony will sound a little mickey mousey. last night, i made a midi backing track of this song (drums, bass, electric piano, and ahh vocal/strings for fill. the song wasnt easy to sequence. took a couple hours to get it tweaked. there are a lot of 1/2 bars mixed in throughout the song. you cant just use 4/4 drum patterns and make it work. this song is right down my alley for making my own backing tracks. i love simple songs that have tough arrangements where nobody attempts a song because they cant figure out how to get the timing right. i can see this song being performed with just acoustic and vocal. i'm sure it would go over whether you had harmony or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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