Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Okay, so I'm an avid pedal user, and I was thinking of going to a rack mounted set up. I'm not real big about getting into the rack units as much as going to a midi controlled set up. Now, I feel like I have an idea of what I'm getting into, but maybe people here can assist me...Here is my current rig: Mainly, I just enjoy pulling from all of my effects, but would like to improve the overall tone I'm getting. I was thinking of just getting some type of furman power conditioner, 2 or 3 GCX audio switchers, the Ground Control Pro MIDI Foot Controller, and then slideable shelves for most all of my pedals. I play solo and with a band, so solo I can leave lots of settings alone, but in band I may tweak some knobs on a phaser or chorus. The rack can stay close so I could still tweak. I thought about possibly getting the Echo Pro instead of my line 6 DL-4, but other than that, wasn't really looking into any rack gear. I'm not sure if it will be able to have a section (unlatching switch) to control my tap tempo tremolo and delays (with aux outs from the pedals) on the foot controller or how I'd control the echo park via the foot controller. What do you all think or do you have any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Don't get the GCX. They're severely limited due to the inability to respond to program changes. Go with an RG-16 or get some Axess GRX4's. Remember also that while buffers are really cool you can't usually use them with Fuzz pedals. Also, your eventide will respond to MIDI changes just like a piece of rack gear so it should have its own channel. There's a couple of ways to think about it. I prefer to think in terms of sounds rather than effects. That way I just dial in a particular sound I like and save it rather than worry about individual effects. You can do it that way and make everything real time access via CC messages but it almost defeats the purpose of having everything setup in a MIDI controlled rack. BTW... What you're planning on doing is the ultimate way to use pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, I was going to hook up the individual pedals, but then create my sounds. Light gain and this delay, then be able to switch to a different delay with fuzz and dist, then to reverb and chorus without the delay just used but with the same drives....etc. I hope that is what you are referring too with sounds instead of pedals? However, I am not familiar with CC messages. Like I said, I'm getting ready to get into this stuff, and am not too familiar. I just want to make sure everything will work out and I'm not wasting money or time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, I was going to hook up the individual pedals, but then create my sounds.Light gain and this delay, then be able to switch to a different delay with fuzz and dist, then to reverb and chorus without the delay just used but with the same drives....etc.I hope that is what you are referring too with sounds instead of pedals? However, I am not familiar with CC messages. Like I said, I'm getting ready to get into this stuff, and am not too familiar. I just want to make sure everything will work out and I'm not wasting money or time. Just think of it like this... A CC message does one thing. A Program change makes sweeping changes to a bunch of things at once. What I end up doing when I'm running MIDI actuated pedal setups is I come up with a bank of sounds. Each sound is made up of various things but for example. My basic clean sound would be channel 1 of my amp. A nice compressor pedal in front with some chorus and a bit of delay just real faint. So that's 4 different things I'm using to make up that sound. So rather than have to use CC messages to turn stuff on and off like it's just a big virtual pedalboard I have a preset that does those four things with one tap. If you controller will send multiple CC messages you can do this that way but it's a bunch more programming. Using an RG-16 or Axess GRX4 allows you to simply pick a preset. Then activate only the loops or functions you want for that preset and then save it. It's that easy. The ultimate is to use pedals with a certain amount of programmability so that rather than tweak stuff in the middle of a set your Eventide Modfactor or Timefactor just does it for you for each program. The other way around this is to have multiple pedals so that for a given sound you use chorus "A" but for another sound you use chorus "B" but that gets expensive. With both the GRX4 and the RG-16 you can chain a bunch of them together. Just assign each one its own MIDI channel. Plus, they both have loops that allow you to run stuff pre or post buffer. The RG-16 gets the nod there as it allows you to insert the buffer anywhere. So if you have 3 boost or fuzz pedals using Germanium transistors you want them pre buffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 And with what you are saying, let's say this delay and compressor and chorus and light drive will be one preset distortion and fuzz with a different delay will be another preset so it does the tap dancing for me. I set up different banks (songs) with all the presets (different equations of combinations) I use, and it's ready to go. Correct? If so, this is what I'm looking for. I don't want to loop some things together as is its own midi because some songs I use different combinations. (does this make sense?), thus not always wanting this drive on when I use this other pedal in chain with it. Also though, that would mean I'd need two of these as it only has 8 audio loops, and I'd most likely want atleast 16 midi inputs. I'm aware it might take me a bit to program it, and I'm fine with that. I just need to make sure my switcher and my foot controller have some sort of jack that can control tap tempo. And, I'd need to figure out how exactly the line 6 echo pro (if I were to get it) would be able to loop like the footstomp dl4 does, or else that would go on the floor. I already know my rc-20 will have to stay on the floor, as I loop to frequently with it. It has some saves phrases and what not I then loop over, but I also reverse and fade stuff out, so it is very hands on when I use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 I don't want to loop some things together as is its own midi because some songs I use different combinations. (does this make sense?), thus not always wanting this drive on when I use this other pedal in chain with it.I'm aware it might take me a bit to program it, and I'm fine with that. I just need to make sure my switcher and my foot controller have some sort of jack that can control tap tempo. And, I'd need to figure out how exactly the line 6 echo pro (if I were to get it) would be able to loop like the footstomp dl4 does, or else that would go on the floor. I already know my rc-20 will have to stay on the floor, as I loop to frequently with it. It has some saves phrases and what not I then loop over, but I also reverse and fade stuff out, so it is very hands on when I use it. I'm building a really sweet rig for a buddy that's similar to what you want to do. He'll end up with his loop station (it's the big one) out with his MIDI controller. As far as I know, you can use a non latching footswitch plugged in to your MIDI controller that acts as a tap tempo for anything that accepts MIDI CC messages. So if your Delay (I know the eventide will do it) accepts MIDI you should be able to have just a simple box out on your pedalboard. I used to use a Boss volume pedal as an expression pedal as well. The Ground Control Pro can use two different expression pedals. Why don't you actually list what you've got as far as MIDI gear. If you've not gotten your controller yet let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 I have nothing but what you see in the picture above. No anything has been bought yet for this, as it will mostly be a work in progress over 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 I have nothing but what you see in the picture above.No anything has been bought yet for this, as it will mostly be a work in progress over 2009. In that case I'd spring for the Axess Foot controller. They're expensive but not that bad. They're far and away the best MIDI controller you can get for anywhere near that price. With the Canadian to Us$ conversion I believe they're around $900 these days. The most cost effective way to do it is to get the Axess GRX4's as they're just over $220 with the conversion and you're not paying extra for the amp control switches. For your lonestar all you need is one relay to switch channels and one more if you plan to use the Solo boost feature. The Axess CFX4 is great for that. A close second to that would be the RJM controller. It's nice and simple and would do the bank setup you're talking about really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 In that case I'd spring for the Axess Foot controller. They're expensive but not that bad. They're far and away the best MIDI controller you can get for anywhere near that price. With the Canadian to Us$ conversion I believe they're around $900 these days. The most cost effective way to do it is to get the Axess GRX4's as they're just over $220 with the conversion and you're not paying extra for the amp control switches. For your lonestar all you need is one relay to switch channels and one more if you plan to use the Solo boost feature. The Axess CFX4 is great for that.A close second to that would be the RJM controller. It's nice and simple and would do the bank setup you're talking about really well. Yea, I'd say I atleast need 2 RJM's or 4-5 of the Axess CFX4's. I'm guessing the Axess foot controller can take a whole lot of those? Is it just as easy to write as the RJMs? I just watched the video...it seems very easy to use. My wah would stay out front, and my tuner would most likely become rack, and if I leave my de-7, dl4 and rc-20 out for right now, I'm looking at around 20 or so pedals in the rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 ACTUALLY! RJM just introduced the Effect Gizmo at NAMM http://www.gearwire.com/rjm-effectgizmo.html , which is a 12 effect switcher. 2 of those bad boys would be nice, if the cost is low on it. What is it these things have over the gcx's again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 ACTUALLY!RJM just introduced the Effect Gizmo at NAMM http://www.gearwire.com/rjm-effectgizmo.html , which is a 12 effect switcher. 2 of those bad boys would be nice, if the cost is low on it.What is it these things have over the gcx's again? The GCX's only respond to CC messages. That means you have to send a message for each effect to turn it either on or off every time you change sounds. You want to use program changes. If RJM now has this effects gizmo I'd go that route with their controller and call it good. You can use an unused loop as a relay for switching channels. That's a no brainer depending on the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 I would just have to figure out how I'd wire up the pedals in the end of my chain and how I'd hook my volume pedal where it is in my chain and all. Phew...I have a feeling there is a lot of frustration ahead of me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 I would just have to figure out how I'd wire up the pedals in the end of my chain and how I'd hook my volume pedal where it is in my chain and all. Phew...I have a feeling there is a lot of frustration ahead of me... I'd just draw a picture. Think of it as fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Now, I saw in the videos that you can have where a preset is lined up, but also that you have real control of the individual effects in that preset. My question was going to be if I was running two of those 12 loop switchers how my foot controller would give me access to all the pedals, but I'm guessing that you only have real control over the effects you load in that preset, which I'd imagine won't be more than 8 effects, correct? I'm getting excited about this. If it were you, buying piece by piece, what order would you take care of things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Now, I saw in the videos that you can have where a preset is lined up, but also that you have real control of the individual effects in that preset.My question was going to be if I was running two of those 12 loop switchers how my foot controller would give me access to all the pedals, but I'm guessing that you only have real control over the effects you load in that preset, which I'd imagine won't be more than 8 effects, correct?I'm getting excited about this. If it were you, buying piece by piece, what order would you take care of things? You can load as many effects in one preset as you want. As for realtime control I'm not sure to be honest what the limitations are. Unfortunately tho, to utilize your rig fully you're going to have to implement it all at once to make the changeover. That being said, don't forget to budget about $300 for custom cabling. I'd buy all that stuff from Redco Audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flump Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 The new Rocktron Patchmate is basically exactly the GCX switcher except it responds to program changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 You can load as many effects in one preset as you want.As for realtime control I'm not sure to be honest what the limitations are.Unfortunately tho, to utilize your rig fully you're going to have to implement it all at once to make the changeover. That being said, don't forget to budget about $300 for custom cabling. I'd buy all that stuff from Redco Audio. Which is the bad part, considering I wired my boards up with nice Lava Cables...each patch was 18 bucks a piece. running this many effects, that's a nice chunk of change! Are talking about the Redco RJM? Are those just straight to straight or can you get them R/A to straight? I wonder how they compare to the Lava cables I had... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Which is the bad part, considering I wired my boards up with nice Lava Cables...each patch was 18 bucks a piece. running this many effects, that's a nice chunk of change!Are talking about the Redco RJM? Are those just straight to straight or can you get them R/A to straight?I wonder how they compare to the Lava cables I had... I just buy bulk Mogami and the Redco house brand connectors. Anything post buffer isn't going to lose signal with a quality cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, I just got a power conditioner today. furman M-8LX. Didn't think there were many differences between the models, but this should do the trick, right? Also madryan, I saw your post abour the RG-16 having some sound problems. Is this (or the newer effect gizmo one) something I should stay away from?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Well, I just got a power conditioner today. furman M-8LX. Didn't think there were many differences between the models, but this should do the trick, right?Also madryan, I saw your post abour the RG-16 having some sound problems. Is this (or the newer effect gizmo one) something I should stay away from?? It's a ground issue that's most likely unique to my buddies setup. We're getting a Voodoo AC power unit that'll most likely take care of everything. The unit works great but there's a ground loop when we try to use the buffer. This sort of thing is common with rack setups. Learning to run it down is the fun part. I basically only had about 10 minutes to fiddle with the RG-16 before I had to leave the other night so I decided to post up a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NyteOwl Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 Don't get the GCX. They're severely limited due to the inability to respond to program changes.I think saying the GCX is severely limited is a bit over the top. The GCX is a looping device, so its function is to turn individual loops on or off in whatever configuration the User desires. MIDI program changes pass thru the GCX to the User's MIDI controllable devices and real time parameter control of those devices would be done with expression pedals, not a GCX or whatever looping device one chooses to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flump Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think saying the GCX is severely limited is a bit over the top. The GCX is a looping device, so its function is to turn individual loops on or off in whatever configuration the User desires. MIDI program changes pass thru the GCX to the User's MIDI controllable devices and real time parameter control of those devices would be done with expression pedals, not a GCX or whatever looping device one chooses to use. Yea but I'm guessing the point he was trying to make is that some things are limited in the number of CC messages they can send per preset so if you have to use too many for your GCX you might be screwed elsewhere. Again though...if you want all the function of the GCX + the ability to respond to program changes get rocktron's new patchmate. I got one and it is incredibly easy to program and use. Disclaimer: i do not work for rocktron nor know anyone there, I just think it beats the GCX for the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madryan Posted January 21, 2009 Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 Yea but I'm guessing the point he was trying to make is that some things are limited in the number of CC messages they can send per preset so if you have to use too many for your GCX you might be screwed elsewhere.Again though...if you want all the function of the GCX + the ability to respond to program changes get rocktron's new patchmate. I got one and it is incredibly easy to program and use.Disclaimer: i do not work for rocktron nor know anyone there, I just think it beats the GCX for the price. Essentially that's what I was getting to. If you have one GCX and are using it to run a couple of pedals, switch channels on your amp, and rout to two different amps then it's no biggie. If you plan on ganging up two or more GCX's now you're going to run into serious issues with running out of CC capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BTBAM Posted January 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2009 I would have to have multiple switchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ambient Posted January 22, 2009 Members Share Posted January 22, 2009 This is a pretty cool thread for people wanting to get into racks. Like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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