Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 i play lead guitar for a church and i have major problems cutting through the mix..i use a ibanez rg through a vox tone lab then a preamp boost pedal for solo's then into the pa...if i could use an amp then it would probably make fixing this prblem easier. but we have a very very small place to put all of our stuff and the stage volume of an amp would just be a problem for everyone else. i mean i could probably reach my arm out and touch the bass player and the accoustic guitar player on both sides of me. our setup includes two keyboards bass accoustic lead guitar, which is me, and a drummer. the drummer doesnt use accoutic drums. my question is is there anything i could do to my current setup or anything i could buy...not to expensive tho, .... that would help me cut through the mix and sound better? thanksjoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 16, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 oh yeah the accoustic player and myself are in the same mix, why...... i duno, i do know that it has to be that way for now cuz we dont have enough channels on the board or moniter outlest or something.......... just though i would add that in just incase that may help anyone who is trying to help. thanks a gain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 Without actually hearing your tone,its difficult to say for sure. Ordinarily,too much gain and not enough mids are the reason for a disappearing guitar. Maybe an EQ pedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted October 16, 2003 Moderators Share Posted October 16, 2003 Originally posted by fuzzylogic220 oh yeah the accoustic player and myself are in the same mix, why...... i duno, i do know that it has to be that way for now cuz we dont have enough channels on the board or moniter outlest or something..........just though i would add that in just incase that may help anyone who is trying to help.thanks a gain If you can raise the cash, pick up a Shure PSM200 monitor system. You can mult your guitar through the transmixer, and dial up as much of yourself as you want in your in-ears without disturbing the acoustic guy or needing another AUX channel on the board. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JMS 2 Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 What is it where you don't cut through : in the FOH or in your monitor mix ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 Are you using a 1/4" Y-cord to double up into a single channel with the acoustic? That's not a good idea. If there are passive electronics in the acoustic and the volume knob gets turned down, it shorts some of the signal to ground -- taking yours with it. If you are talking about sharing a monitor mix, then that's something you'll both have to get used to. As for cutting through the mix: Try a less distorted sound when you boost it up for your solos. A heavily distorted sound tends to get lost in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billiam Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 I find that when mixing FOH I have to eq the lows out of the guitar and maybe a little mid boost to get the guitar to "cut". Most guitarists freak when I tell them this, so I don't anymore. They always have killer lows that compete with the bass frequencies too much. Keyboards are a bitch too. You'rs competing with them too. They might have to change their sound sound as not to drown out you. I mixed a Battle of the Bands last weekend. One band had 2keys, bass, guitar, bass, drums. Well it was a PIMA, despite the fact that they wanted to use their PG 58's over my OM-5's. The keys had some INSANE low end! Then she'd change the patch to some high end fill. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on at times. Finally, this is how it was: the keys provided the low end, and bass was there for the clicky attack, the guitarist was fine. I hate keys more than anything. Their droning sounds are similar to feedback sometimes and really push the system. By the way they were the only band that had feedback problems because of the Pg 58 mics. Sidenote: One of the other bands came into the shop looking for a pair of the Om-5's. They said it was great and there was NO FEEDBACK! (See other thread about wanker artist spitting out frequencies to young soundguy) Hmmm, I wish I could say that I did a little to help, but I guess it was all the mics! I feel that a band judges you/the company by your monitor mix. I think that if you can get the mons right, they can rest assured that there is equal competance at FOH. Plus they love you for it and remember!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted October 16, 2003 Members Share Posted October 16, 2003 Originally posted by billiam The keys had some INSANE low end! Then she'd change the patch to some high end fill. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on at times. Key patch volumes are all over the place. I always dedicate a subgroup to keys and squash them with an inserted limiter. Then just run the channel strips flat. At least then you can ride gain on the group fader instead of figuring out which synth you have to react to when all hell breaks loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 What is it where you don't cut through : in the FOH or in your monitor mix ? well im not sure what i sound like in the FOH.... cuz ive never heard myslef in it. i was thinking since i couldnt really hear myslef in the monitor mix over the others that it would sound basically the same in the mains. so let me get this straight......lighten up on the distortion a little buy an eq and take some of the low's out and boost the mids somewhat.?? and that should help me cut through the mix?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 17, 2003 Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by fuzzylogic220 well im not sure what i sound like in the FOH.... cuz ive never heard myslef in it. i was thinking since i couldnt really hear myslef in the monitor mix over the others that it would sound basically the same in the mains.so let me get this straight......lighten up on the distortion a little buy an eq and take some of the low's out and boost the mids somewhat.?? and that should help me cut through the mix?? That always helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 anyone know any good eq pedals that would do the job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 17, 2003 Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by fuzzylogic220 anyone know any good eq pedals that would do the job? Even the mini Dano is pretty quiet and works fine. They are cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FishEye Posted October 17, 2003 Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by fuzzylogic220 well im not sure what i sound like in the FOH.... cuz ive never heard myslef in it. i was thinking since i couldnt really hear myslef in the monitor mix over the others that it would sound basically the same in the mains. I've been on both sides of the mix in the same situation, and approximate instrumentation you have. The bigest fix rests with the sound guy. It could be as simple as adjusting the EQ on your channel on the board, rather than you adding an EQ pedal. It is *usually* not a fair assumption to expect the main mix to match what you hear in the monitor. However, churches are the most common place where the monitor mix is a copy of the mains. When it doubt, ask your sound guy. If he knows what he's doing he should be able to help you pretty easily. If not (very possible in church), give Grace, and buy the EQ pedal to tweak yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Daniel Smart Posted October 17, 2003 Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 In order, the things I'd consider are:Your playing style and techniqueThe band's arrangement and sensitivityGetting the right mix coming back from the monitors A sound guy's not a miracle worker. There's a certain amount you can do with EQ, but if you're all playing in the same range and at the same time you're always going to struggle. As far as the amp thing goes, it's really just a question of having the right amp. The important thing is whether you're happy with your tone though. If you are then fine, stick without the amp. As for monitors maybe you just need to ask for what you're not getting. I don't see how it's different having it coming back through the monitor rather than through an amp - I don't go and fiddle with my amp settings every time I'm going to do a lead break - I use playing style and guitar settings to do what is necessary. The only thing that can sometimes be a problem is where you're monitors are coming off the board post EQ and your mains sound very different to your monitors - requiring different EQ settings. This can especially be a problem if the FOH doesn't really know how to use the mains EQ - I have seen some radical curves on mains graphics which were then followed by radical cuts and boosts on channel EQ. This isn't going to help you. Personally I'm not sure if an EQ pedal will work for you. The problem with an EQ pedal is that the guy at FOH will promptly adjust his EQ to compensate. You could either be back where you started or worse off. The only way it's going to be a help is if the board doesn't a good enough EQ section to do the job. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 When it doubt, ask your sound guy. If he knows what he's doing he should be able to help you pretty easily. If not (very possible in church), give Grace, and buy the EQ pedal to tweak yourself. yeah all the sound guys in our church are strictly volunteers, like i myslef and everyone else in the band and chior and stuff except for the main worship leader. i had to buy the preamp bosts cuz they kept forgeting to turn me up during my leads...in my mointor at least duno about mains....... but its hard to play a lead when you cant hear yourslef, so i bought the preamp boost....... what about a h&k red box...........ive heard a few things about them,,, duno really what they do.............what do they do? awould it help me to have a more "real" amp sound. since im just going out of my tone lab into the board? ive come to the realization that im not going to get the sound i want, comming out of the monitors, ....i duno the word for what i feel i hear, it just sorta sounds dry or fake or.... i duno.....but ive come to accept that its not going to sound like im playing through my laney half stack at home.......just something about the sound.....distortion mostly,,,(the cleans are awesome).....dosent really......sound........."real".....if you know what i mean..... and i dont expect you to but what im asking is would the red box help get more of an ampish vibe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Daniel Smart Posted October 17, 2003 Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 If you're a Laney guy, personally I'd check out the LC15R - decent tone and shouldn't need to be cranked hard to get decent tone. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 17, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2003 but i cant use an amp onstage because of various factors.......sound volume........space....... which is big one.......... if i were to use an amp id have to Y cord and split it just before it go's into the mains......... which wouldnt be hard to do. there just isnt any space for one right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fuzzylogic220 Posted October 19, 2003 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2003 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 19, 2003 Members Share Posted October 19, 2003 Daniel was headed in a good direction... you all need to play as a group. This meands leaving room for each other in the mix, and the other players giving you a bit more room for your solos. You will also need to take that room and work with it. This is something that is not reasonalbe to expect from a sound person, especially volunteer. Not all players can occupy the same sonic space at the same time. To do so is the essence of a garage band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted October 19, 2003 Members Share Posted October 19, 2003 I've found that while too much mids in a FOH mix will tend to make it muddy sounding, bringing up the mids on your rig will tend to help you cut through the mix. That's just my .02 Hope it works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bliner Posted October 20, 2003 Members Share Posted October 20, 2003 I play electric/lead at church as well, and have been for some time now. What I have found, and what you are describing, is the terminal battle of an electric guitarist playing in a small venue with inexperienced band/soundguys. I would say start first with your sound. Know what good tone sounds like, and dial it in. There is also something to be said for understanding good tone within the context of the band. ie. Sweet full practicing alone sound is usually muddy when you add a bass, drums, keys etc. Understand where you fit sonically into the entire mix of the band. This usually comes from a mic'd amp in my experience. I know it is loud, but experiment with baffels, isolation boxes, different angles, and a mic. (I mic my cab tilted up at my face, so I hear it the loudest) It sounds like you are probably limited space wise and pretty happy with your current setup, but these principles should help. Just got kicked out of the library, so I will continue later. After the sound is in the PA, it is out of your control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Daniel Smart Posted October 21, 2003 Members Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by fuzzylogic220 but i cant use an amp onstage because of various factors.......sound volume........space....... which is big one.......... if i were to use an amp id have to Y cord and split it just before it go's into the mains......... which wouldnt be hard to do. there just isnt any space for one right now Volume - I'd expect the right amp to be quieter on stage than putting it through all the monitors, and you'd have flexibilty in where it's directed. I'd also expect an LC15 to sound a heck of a lot better than your half stack at the volumes you'll be wanting as well. Space - Seriously, have you seen the size of an LC15, it's just over a foot square. If you haven't got room for an amp like that I wonder where people are standing and where you're putting the monitors. I would be suprised if you didn't have room to stick a small amp next to you or in front of you and lean it up to point at you. Y-cord? I'd be suprised if that works unless you use a DI to split the signal - you'd likely have problems due to different input impedances at the amp and the desk. Sound-wise you'd probably be worse off than before. The point of having an amp is so you can mic it - and if you haven't got room for a mic stand check out something like the Sennheiser e609 which you could hang over the front. I've also wondered about trying those little clip-ons on a cab - would make life easy. I could see something like the Pro35 might do well. I've also seen amp stands which angle the amp up and have a built in mic stand which comes down over the top - might suit you well. Anyway, just food for thought. I still think you're biggest problem is in how you play together as a band, but also if you want to get the tone of a guitar amp, the only way I've found that really works is with a guitar amp. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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