Members agedhorse Posted January 12, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge Another consideration is going to be crossover selection.Will these be completely active?Two way active, with a passive network between the MF and HF? My feeling is that with the cost of electronics being so "cheap" these days, and the fact that probably 3 or 4 boxes per side will be necessary to achieve suitable pattern control, all active electronics will be about the same cost (or close) as a goor quality passive top crossover, plus the ability to correct for things that otherwise would have to be lived with. This is especially true if a 2 way + sub design is used. Besides, a steep slope is difficult to obtsin smoothly with a passive network considering the varying impedance of the drivers. There are some good passive top end crossovers being used, but they are pretty complex, and suitible IMO to retrofit installations where running an additional pair of speaker wires would be more costly than the passive crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 I hate to tell you guys, but Bag End has already beat you to your line array... You can moutn a bunch of TA-6000s on top of a couple of S18Es and get exactly what you're discussing. The TA-6000s even have a rotatable HF horn in the middle so you can mount them vertically or horizontally. The TA-6000s are 22.5" in the long dimension and only 28#. The subs are 22.5" wide and weigh in at 69#. The wattage handling may be a problem (TA-6000 150 watts, S18Es 400W), but with enough of them you should be ok. The added benefit is that the system is capable of 8-20,000 Hz. TA-6000 S18E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fafnir777 Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Okay, so I have to ask, where can I learn more about Line Arrays? I've been reading these posts with great interest. The Ford Line Array system looks SWEET! I've been interested in them ever since I saw the Monsterous Greatful Dead sound system. (It's a bit different, but generally the same - they actually had each instrument coming out of it's own PA tower.) Also, what is the optimum pattern of the horn lens? Has anyone thought about compound loading the lows, or is that just added weight? (i.e., a sealed chamber with a woofer loaded in both the front and back of it, both facing in the same direction. ) I'm just thinking out loud. Several years ago, I designed a box using a pair of 8" speakers (and a separate set with 10" speakers) and a 1" Exit driver mounted to a Selenium 6.5" 45x45 Conical Horn lens in the middle. (available in both 1" Plastic and 2" Aluminum sizes.) I was tempted to build a bunch of them to stack as a line array, but could not justify spending $130 per box for components just to see if it would work! On top of that, I had no way to really test it other than by ear. I was using Bassbox to design them, and they looked really good "on paper" (or should that be "on PC"? ) Also a question about subs: Would there be any benefit (aside from the quick response) of using a large number of smaller speakers? (i.2., twelve 12" speakers) I'm just not a fan of 18" speakers, granted they'll throw some low end, but from looking at specs, most of them don't really go much lower than a 15", and their response time is generally slower (obviously, being a larger cone it takes a little more time for it to respond.) Again, I'm just thinking out loud. Also, that Bag End system looks great. I've been a fan of Bag End ever since the time that they first announced their ELF system. That must have been some incredible Acid that Ron Wickersham was on back then!:D:D Not only does he give us the PZM Microphone, he designed the ELF system. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Fafnir777 Also, what is the optimum pattern of the horn lens? Has anyone thought about compound loading the lows, or is that just added weight? (i.e., a sealed chamber with a woofer loaded in both the front and back of it, both facing in the same direction. ) There's some pretty deep exponential math involved with designing horn flares, and there's plety of debate as to which design the optimal (log, natural log, etc.) There's also the matter of the mouth area, throat area and compression chamber volume to take into account. I've got a whole notebook full of notes, if you like I'll transcribe some of them here. For double driver loading, it's not uncommon to place two drivers against each other with the magnets in opposite directions then wire them up in opposite phases so that one pushes when the other pulls and vice versa. It's quite efficient, but you have to be sure you get the right size magnets and amps to keep them from pushing/pulling themsevles too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 More things to consider; Price; We have yet to establish a price range. It seems that we may be settled on a three way line array design,(maybe) this will put the price up a bit but I think we can still keep it in the working mans class. We want this to be accessible to more people and companies than every thing in its class right? It Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 I too agree the 30" restriction will create some very large compromises. I think realistically if we are trying to build a medium format line array we should look at 45". Even if you just look at what every other company is offering 45" is right in the ball park for this size of rig. When you actually sit down and start drafting these things out like Ford and I have done you realize very quickly there are many things that take up room you hadn't considered. Secondly I have no problem using active crossovers for the big shows where 6-8 cabinets are used per side. However where it will come into play is having to use 4 amps minimum for small shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by ratthedd I hate to tell you guys, but Bag End has already beat you to your line array... You can moutn a bunch of TA-6000s on top of a couple of S18Es and get exactly what you're discussing. The TA-6000s even have a rotatable HF horn in the middle so you can mount them vertically or horizontally. The TA-6000s are 22.5" in the long dimension and only 28#. The subs are 22.5" wide and weigh in at 69#. The wattage handling may be a problem (TA-6000 150 watts, S18Es 400W), but with enough of them you should be ok. The added benefit is that the system is capable of 8-20,000 Hz. That's taking the easy way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Something that should also be considered is Keele's rule of thumb for patter control of a waveguide, if we are horn loading the MF. It states that: A wave guide with mouth width X (in) and coverage angle theta will maintain directional control down to a frequency of 10^6/(theta*X) This means to really have control on the MF down to say 350hz you need a waveguide 28" wide. Obviously yet another compromise to be decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Again on the overall dimension aspect, most of us will want to put some sort of flyware on the boxes as well, and it will still need to conform to truck pack dimensions. Considering the flyware will add about 1.5" on the end of each box, that is 3" to account for within the overall dimension IMO. Therefore if you had a 45" overall width you would now be down to 42" for the enclosure iteself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge Again on the overall dimension aspect, most of us will want to put some sort of flyware on the boxes as well, and it will still need to conform to truck pack dimensions. Considering the flyware will add about 1.5" on the end of each box, that is 3" to account for within the overall dimension IMO. Therefore if you had a 45" overall width you would now be down to 42" for the enclosure iteself. Have you priced ATM Flyware frames? Make sure your sitting down when you do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge Again on the overall dimension aspect, most of us will want to put some sort of flyware on the boxes as well, and it will still need to conform to truck pack dimensions. I'm thinking of somthing more like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 13, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 I believe that the Bag End TA-6000, like the EAW JF's and all the others out there are intended to be used as a dipole style application (under balcony, etc.). The horns are not suited (generally) to line array use. Isn't the TA-6000 a conical horn? If so, how would rotating the horn help pattern adjustment? To get effective pattern control at lower frequencies, yes the horn becomes large, so I'm not sure that there's much advantage (at least for pattern control purposes) using a horn on the low mids? The benefit would probably be more noticeable as increased efficiency, but would this be across the entire mid's band, or just wher ethe horn loads the driver best? Perhaps, the line array derived pattern control may be more effective with less size and cost, so we should look at how well the sensitivities and power bandwidth of 2 x 6" front loaded would match the other components? I can't export drawings out of my current version of AutoCad... the .bmp output module has never worked properly, and I can't post .wmf files here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by agedhorse I can't export drawings out of my current version of AutoCad... the .bmp output module has never worked properly, and I can't post .wmf files here! Have you tried to copy the image and paste it to something like Paint and save as...JPG? That's how I do it with AutoCad LT2004. What version of AutoCad are you using? I like the six idea we will have to play with it Maybe a dual LAB 10 for a sub and do this in micro mode with a single 1" sure would keep the cost down. http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/lab12/hl10a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 My father owns a Fabrication shop, with a CNC plasma table, sheer, break, all the goodies. Therefore I was planning on fabricating my own flyware. It would be simply enough to have a local welding shop make them up for other people. I will simply have a mechanical engineer I know to go over the stress calculations. I can't export from ACAD either. What I do is simply take a screen shot. All you do is hit print screen on your keyboard. Then open up Paint and hit "Paste". Then save it as a jpeg. I think horn loading the LF is out even with a 45" wide box. There is just simply too much area required for the mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge My father owns a Fabrication shop, with a CNC plasma table, sheer, break, all the goodies. Therefore I was planning on fabricating my own flyware. It would be simply enough to have a local welding shop make them up for other people. I will simply have a mechanical engineer I know to go over the stress calculations. I can't export from ACAD either. What I do is simply take a screen shot. All you do is hit print screen on your keyboard. Then open up Paint and hit "Paste". Then save it as a jpeg. I think horn loading the LF is out even with a 45" wide box. There is just simply too much area required for the mouth. I didn't do so well my daddy was a trucker. I tried that it works to, also you can hit select all....copy and paste that way you won't have all the windows trash with it. So...how did they do it with the KF760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge Something that should also be considered is Keele's rule of thumb for patter control of a waveguide, if we are horn loading the MF.It states that: A wave guide with mouth width X (in) and coverage angle theta will maintain directional control down to a frequency of 10^6/(theta*X)This means to really have control on the MF down to say 350hz you need a waveguide 28" wide.Obviously yet another compromise to be decided. Are you sure that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 My dady's just a welder. But here in Canada we live the American Dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Ford Audio Serv I tried that it works to, also you can hit select all....copy and paste that way you won't have all the windows trash with it. I think you can hit Alt-Printscreen or Ctrl-Printscreen to only get the active window's contents into the clipboard. I run Linux now, so I can't test it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Ford Audio Serv Are you sure that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge My dady's just a welder. But here in Canada we live the American Dream It's on now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge Yep just a rule of thumb from what I understand.Here is the reference if you are interested "The Manta Ray Horns", Henricksen and Ureda, AES Loudspeaker Anothology v. 2, credited to Don Keele So say we take out the 12's and make the side chambers into ports and shorten it up a bit what will we have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Power responce of 4 Alpha 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 You guys are killing me here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 You are simply to fast on the CAD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Okay here is my latest drawing 2 - Eminence Delta Pro 12", 3.6cu ft ported, F3 62hz2 - 18sound 6ND410 - Horn Loaded2 - BMS 4550 on DDS DSLA 1-100 horn Neo Drivers like the Delta Lite and BMS 4552 would easily shave 30lbs off, simply cost more $$$ Dimensions are 42" (too allow 1.5" for flying gear) x 15" x 19.25 (too allow the use of 2.5" wheel castors mounted on rear if desired. MF Horn mouth is only 17" wide so there is really only true patern control down to about 550hz for the MF section. Shaded areas are port area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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