Members agedhorse Posted January 11, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Welcome Jack! I think we are looking at several overlapping methods of pattern control... horns, waveguides, driver positioning (dipole) and driver positioning (vertical line array)... plus the possibility of phase control of elements in the array modifying the array pattern itself. The question we need to answer ourselves is what tradeoffs are we willing to make, including size, weight, cost, performance, efficiency, power handling etc. How loud does the system need to be at say 100 feet open air to be a good solution for the average user here. Let's start with the tops first... My vote (to start) is that an average SPL of say 105dB unweigted would be pretty loud given the open air 100 ft conditions. AND, by our definition (we need to set this criteria somehow) the system have the ability to produce short term another 6dB of short term "oomph", giving us a peak SPL of 111dB at 100 ft open air (no room gain). This would be one hell of a loud PA inside... not necissarily an arena PA, but certainly suitable for large clubs of up to 1000 seats. Any comments or measured levels from your gigs? We have SPL limits at many venues of 100 - 105 at the mix position, so that's where my first guess comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L. Ron Hoover Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Welcome aboard Jack! Good to have another head aboard..... You have brought up some interesting points for sure. At this point we're in the brainstorming mode so more ideas added to the pot is a good thing. The BMS driver is very interesting for sure. Do you know what the price range is? I'm fairly sure that SLS is not going to sell drivers alone. I'm sure they'd be expensive, though. The 8" thing hasn't been discussed yet either. I've got no issue with them after spending a while with a dV-DOSC kit. I did a 10000 seat arena with 15 dV-DOSCs a side and 6 of the regular V-DOSC subs with B.B. King and found no lack of low-mid energy at all. Agedhorse: That sounds like a reasonable SPL criteria to me. Do you mean per box or for the array (pardon me if that's a dumb question:D)? If for the array, how many boxes? My first name's Mark, in case anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L. Ron Hoover Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by Ford Audio Serv I looked into the ribbon thing a little, maybee a bit spendy for a "cheep" project. Here is a pic of a well receved system with no isophasic waveguide. There are a number of systems that aren't trying to get perfect line array characteristics in the HF range. There's definitely a school of thought that having an isophasic HF device isn't that critical. Even with a standard HF device you still get the -3dB/doubling of distance and a lot of people would say that that's the most important feature of the line array. Yup, ribbons are expensive. If I'm able to come up with a viable design for my final project, I'll sell 'em to you guys cheap! :p I've used the KF-760 system and it's very impressive, if not that hifi sounding. It's not as transparent as V-DOSC, for example. The KF-760 system is quite likely the loudest system I've ever encountered though! Wow. To confirm that, I saw Iron Maiden with that kit last summer (15 760s/side) at the Bell Center in Montreal and it was insanely loud, but quite clean. EAW makes good stuff. I've been mixing on and teching KF-850 rigs for years and they still stand up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassknave Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Just a thought, guys: You might be able to maximize the utility of the top boxes by making the horn lenses rotatable, so that a single M/H box per side could be used in vertical format for small apps--i.e., in venues too small to require the vertical dispersion control inherent in line radiator systems. If you can find your way around the phasing/time domain issues, the increased efficiency of hornload subs might be desirable, though--reducing the multiple needed for decent coverage. Germane, too, is the greater directivity of a hornload box vs reflex. IMO, cost, weight and complexity would militate against hornloading the tops. After all, watts are cheap--and looking at the latest Yamaha switchmode stuff, they're also getting lighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 As most of you know Kevin and I have been working on a design for quite some time. A very large requirement for us was that the Rig as a whole must be scaleable right from a single stand alone unit up to a 16 cabinet line array. One idea I had as of late what to have a box that could be "transformed" to suit the desired application. The idea is to make the HF and MF modules with the ability to rotate 90 degrees. This way in effect you have a Trap and a Line array rig all in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 hahahah great minds think alike, I must have been writing that just as you were posting yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 What about the LF drivers mounted in a "manifold" orientation on the ends of the box. That way we would still get the LF control, but give us more versatility with the box. In terms of the SPL perhaps the more experienced users could chime in and tell us what most of the riders out there require the SPL level at the mix position to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 HCLA3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge What about the LF drivers mounted in a "manifold" orientation on the ends of the box.That way we would still get the LF control, but give us more versatility with the box.In terms of the SPL perhaps the more experienced users could chime in and tell us what most of the riders out there require the SPL level at the mix position to be. Ben Folds Rider;" SPEAKER SYSTEM; Shell be of professional quality, in good working order, able to generate an SPL of 120 dB "A" weighted @ FOH mix position (no futher than 75' from downstage edge) of CLEAN, CLEAR, UNDISTORTED SOUND, with enough enclosures to cover the entire listening area. It shall be a minimum of 4 way, actively balanced, and in STEREO" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 I like the design and the implemenation, very nice. I think you would have less than 1 cubic foot per 12" driver, maybe a significant ammount less. The ports could also go on the horn flare. There is the added cost of 2 more 6's. However this is by far the most effective use of frontal area I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 I bet DDS can build us somthing like this at a good price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Ford, What's the projected frequency response of that cab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Redbassman Ford,What's the projected frequency response of that cab? We are shooting for 80 Hz to 18 Khz + for a single unit. Kind of like trying to fit 10 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket know what I mean. Tell me what you guys think of this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 I may come of souding real dumb, but how efficient is it to fire those twelves right into wood 3 inches from the cone. Are there phase cancellation problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Redbassman I may come of souding real dumb, but how efficient is it to fire those twelves right into wood 3 inches from the cone. Are there phase cancellation problems? Well... it's definatly a trade off... If we can keep the panles from moving to much it will have no where to go but out the front. The area of the opening is larger then the area of the cone so I would hope to be ok. Keep in mind this box is only 30"x15"x22.5" There are many other digines out that do the same thing and they all seem to work just fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Once idea to keep that from moving so much would be 2 pieces of thinner would going cross grain, as opposed to one thich piece of wood. That way, we keep the weight close to our limit, with added rigidity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 12, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Concerns that I have on the manifold design... there's a guaranteed phase smear due to the uncorrectable 12" (or 11" actually) time offset from the front edge of the cone and the back edge of the cone. Also, I have found the frequency response evenness of a reflected manifold to be difficult to control. Also, the design needs to consider the horizontal dispersion of the horn... I have found that greater than 90 degrees with a gradual reduction at very high frequencies is a bit more friendly, especially when groundstacking on a wide stage. The weight looks like it's starting to climb on these boxes!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Redbassman Once idea to keep that from moving so much would be 2 pieces of thinner would going cross grain, as opposed to one thich piece of wood. That way, we keep the weight close to our limit, with added rigidity Great idea! Also I'm thinking that 1/2" ply will help to. With this idea I am a bit more concerned with how it will affect the pattern control from 200 Hz to the 500 Hz high side of the twelve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 12, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jeremy Bridge In terms of the SPL perhaps the more experienced users could chime in and tell us what most of the riders out there require the SPL level at the mix position to be. I was thinking of between 4 and 6 boxes per side (plus whatever subs we come up with), when I made my suggestions. Yeah, I have seen plenty of the 120dB blaa blaa blaa riders, but for the shows I generally have done, much of it's for show and 105 is where they settle in at. I recall that even Paco de Lucia's guys even ask for the 120dB-ish level in their (rediculuous) rider and they don't even hit 100dB. Talking about unused headroom! That doesn't mean that there aren't shows that need this kind of level (and ear plugs) but I think those may be in a bit of a different class than what we are trying to develop... or is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Well, it seems we're def going for the line array. I think before we get carried away with designs, we should decide whether we will design subs for the system, or design it to be used with any sub system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by agedhorse Yeah, I have seen plenty of the 120dB blaa blaa blaa riders, but for the shows I generally have done, much of it's for show and 105 is where they settle in at. I recall that even Paco de Lucia's guys even ask for the 120dB-ish level in their (rediculuous) rider and they don't even hit 100dB. Talking about unused headroom! I tend to prefer about 95 db myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 When i did backline for 3 Dog Night, (they came in town for a show) I hung at the monitor desk, and {censored} did the ears bleed. Johnny Maestro came on and the bleeding stopped significantly. Some people just don' t like it unless it's loud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ford Audio Serv Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by agedhorse I was thinking of between 4 and 6 boxes per side (plus whatever subs we come up with), when I made my suggestions.Yeah, I have seen plenty of the 120dB blaa blaa blaa riders, but for the shows I generally have done, much of it's for show and 105 is where they settle in at. I recall that even Paco de Lucia's guys even ask for the 120dB-ish level in their (rediculuous) rider and they don't even hit 100dB. Talking about unused headroom!That doesn't mean that there aren't shows that need this kind of level (and ear plugs) but I think those may be in a bit of a different class than what we are trying to develop... or is it? 110 db @ 75' ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeremy Bridge Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Another consideration is going to be crossover selection. Will these be completely active? Two way active, with a passive network between the MF and HF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 12, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by Ford Audio Serv 110 db @ 75' ??? Short term at system limit? That would be pretty similar to my guess... we can always add boxes too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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