Members kayak Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Newbie question here. I'm having trouble getting vocals to sound clean, crisp, sibilant, with presence, while at the same time filtering out feedback frequencies. I am running a very basic system, mixer main and monitor out into a stereo EQ, one side house, the other side monitors. Output of the EQ into the respective power amps, and then, of course, speakers. The EQ has LED indicators that indicate during ringing out, which freq is feeding back. I then proceed to cut that freq by 3db, and repeat, cutting the next feedback freq by 3db, even if it is the same freq. I repeat this procedure until I can get reasonable volume, or until one of the frequencies that I am working with has been cut by 12 db, the maximum cut available on the EQ. It seems like most of my feedback is happeing in the heart of the vocal frequencies, and doing all this cutting is making the vocals muddy. Any sage wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Frequencies up above 5k would be the area to increase crispness and such. If you're getting a lot of feedback up there then you need to rethink your speaker positioning, probably. Usually you'll get feedback down below 2k. You can also put some frequency bands back up a bit once you've got a crowd, since people soak up a lot of sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 are you gettting the feedback through mains or monitors? the best way to avoid feedback is proper mic placement relevant to the speakers. What vox mic's are you using? Do you know if they are cardoid or supercardoid? Generally if you have to adjust the same frequency twice you are gertting very close to max practical output. once you start cutting any band by more than 6db or so, you start makeing the sound a little weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Are you checking the monitor and FOH separately so that you know for sure which end is causing the feedback? You really shouldn't have many feedback problems on FOH if everything is set up correctly and it isn't a totally funky room. Are you sure the mics are well behind the main line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kayak Posted January 11, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead Are you checking the monitor and FOH separately so that you know for sure which end is causing the feedback? You really shouldn't have many feedback problems on FOH if everything is set up correctly and it isn't a totally funky room. Are you sure the mics are well behind the main line? I ring out the FOH first, then with FOH up, I bring up the monitors and ring them out. Their vocal mics are predominantly SM-57's. One vocal mic and the mics for the guitar amps and drums are a Heinz-57 collection. The mics are just barely behind the FOH (small bar, no room to place the FOH far away from the mics) and the room is funky. It is a small bar, long and narrow, and the band has to set up in the center of the long wall, facing across the narrow dimension of the room. I did add secondary speakers at the side of the stage projecting to the long dimension of the room. I'm just doing a last minute sit-in for a band, using their equipment, so I'm not familiar with all the details of what the equipment is, and how best to use it. Matt, thanks for the advice on not going beyond 6db cut. I know that the Behringer Feedback Eliminator has been dis'ed on this board, but I wonder if it would cut a more narrow band of audio than a standard equalizer would, thereby not affecting the overall sound quality as much. Additionally, would it not find pretty much the exact offending frequency as opposed to the nearest frequency represented on the EQ? An inquiring (and tired, I'm getting too old for this {censored}e) mind wants to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kayak Posted January 11, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Just an aside here. 30 years ago I ran sound for a high school band. Univox four channel PA, I think it was 45 watts, through two 4-10 columns (sitting on the floor, no stands), SM-58 mic's, nothing else. The band was using Fender Bandmasters and Bassman amps for guitar, bass, and keyboard. No EQ. No monitors. No instruments mic'ed. And it worked. My only qualifying comment here is that admittedly, most of the time we were playing dances in high school gym's, and the PA speakers could be placed farther away from the mic's. Still, why is it that today with thousands of dollars of equipment, it seems harder for me to get decent sound than it was when I was doing this 30 years ago? Okay, that was just a little old geezer rant. You can ignore this, it just gave me a chance to get it off my chest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 11, 2004 Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 First, make sure that your main speakers are at least 2 ft in front of the vocal mic's. If you can't do that, then try turning the FOH speakers slightly away from the stage. If you have floor monitors, place them directly behind the vocal microphones (its blind spot) to help keep monitor feedback to a minimum. Keep monitor volume as low as you can. A much better solution to this problem is to get better microphones. SM57 is not really that great at vocals and does ring long before newer microphones. I would recommend either an Electrovoice ND767a (my favorite), Shure Beta58, or Audix OM7. Any of these microphones will signifigantly raise your gain before feedback. They will sound a whole lot better too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kayak Posted January 11, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 11, 2004 Originally posted by OneEng First, make sure that your main speakers are at least 2 ft in front of the vocal mic's. If you can't do that, then try turning the FOH speakers slightly away from the stage. If you have floor monitors, place them directly behind the vocal microphones (its blind spot) to help keep monitor feedback to a minimum. Keep monitor volume as low as you can. A much better solution to this problem is to get better microphones. SM57 is not really that great at vocals and does ring long before newer microphones. I would recommend either an Electrovoice ND767a (my favorite), Shure Beta58, or Audix OM7. Any of these microphones will signifigantly raise your gain before feedback. They will sound a whole lot better too Great response! What mics would you recommend for mic'ing: 1) bass amp (although hopefully I'll start running from the line-out on the bass head) 2) guitar amp (AC-30, has no line out)(how about a DI between the guitar pedal-board and the amp, and letting the acoustic sound from the amp, with no mic, "sweeten" the sterile direct sound from the DI?) 3) one overhead mic for drums 4) kick drum Keep in mind the environment we are talking about is small bars, 100 people max... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kennykeys Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by kayak .......Here's my simple answeres for the cheapest but still workable solutions;What mics would you recommend for mic'ing: 1) bass amp (although hopefully I'll start running from the line-out on the bass head)......Run it line out.2) guitar amp (AC-30, has no line out)(how about a DI between the guitar pedal-board and the amp, and letting the acoustic sound from the amp, with no mic, "sweeten" the sterile direct sound from the DI?).......Mic this amp with a 57.3) one overhead mic for drums.......Any condenser, phantom powered. Was it Bassknave who suggested pointing down, just in front and above the drummer's head.4) kick drum.........You want new/cheap? The Superlux kick model. Or buy any of the old standars used on eBay (Shure Beta 52, AKG D112, etc.).......Buy a new 3-pak of that Behringer 8500 for 20 bucks a mic for vocals. (Or buy some used real 58's.) This and the placement advice should make your feedback lessen.Keep in mind the environment we are talking about is small bars, 100 people max... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Redbassman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by OneEng I would recommend either an Electrovoice ND767a (my favorite), Shure Beta58, or Audix OM7. That EV mic can be a nice mic, but beware some vocalists. If the singer has lots of high mid and little bass in his voice, that mic is alot harder to get right with the EQ than a 58, or the OM7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garageman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Audix mics are great for feedback rejection. Just don't buy any vocal mic based on anybodys recommendation. Different voices sound different thru different mics. The worst mic for my voice in the Beta58, while it's the best for my bass player. You just got to try them. If you're a screamer try the Audix OM7. The OM6 is my favorite of the Audix line while most others I know the OM5 suits them best. If feedback is your problem and you decide to solve it by changing your mics, then look for a super cardiod pattern mic. I always find it amusing when I go to small clubs and find the bands micing the drums and electric instruments. Backline should do just fine in your 100 person clubs. I am also very curious how in the world you would mic an ac30 for such a small club. By the time your turn up your ac30 where it starts to sound good, you're already blowing away everyone in the room.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 That EV mic can be a nice mic, but beware some vocalists. If the singer has lots of high mid and little bass in his voice, that mic is alot harder to get right with the EQ than a 58, or the OM7 Hmmm. I have had no problems at all. I have mic'd both men and women, bass and tenor voices and got nothing but smooth clean vocals from it. Perhaps it is my Allen&Heath making it easy. I have a 4 band channel eq with the 2 middle bands being parametric. All of our vocals sound terrific using the EV ND767a. Reguardless, all of these microphones are vastly superior in sound quality and feedback rejection to the basic SM57 or SM58. What mics would you recommend for mic'ing: 1) bass amp (although hopefully I'll start running from the line-out on the bass head)2) guitar amp (AC-30, has no line out)(how about a DI between the guitar pedal-board and the amp, and letting the acoustic sound from the amp, with no mic, "sweeten" the sterile direct sound from the DI?)3) one overhead mic for drums4) kick drum In a SMALL bar with a PA that doesn't have subwoofers, I wouldn't mic the bass at all. Bass is not directional and is my first choice of things NOT to mic. The guitar amp will be well served with an SM57. Keep the stage volume down on the amp or you will be picking it up on every vocal mic too. The PA should be used just to spread out the sound of the guitar. It doesn't need to be really loud. It is a small venue after all. If you are going to go with a single overhead for the drums, you will want to get yourself a decent condenser microphone. One that is a full range pickup. Word of warning. This kind of microphone is EXTREAMLY sensitive to feedback. You might be better off just setting up an SM57 pointed down across the top of the high hat to get high hat and snare. For the kick, a decent mic would be the Shure Beta52 or Audix D112. You can get either on e-bay for around 100-150. The most important microphones are the vocal mic's. Good vocals that are on top of the music is the key to good sounding music. Many bands don't have it. It is rather surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by kayak ...Still, why is it that today with thousands of dollars of equipment, it seems harder for me to get decent sound than it was when I was doing this 30 years ago? Okay, that was just a little old geezer rant. You can ignore this, it just gave me a chance to get it off my chest! Maybe it's because your expectations have changed. I used to think the Techniks stereo I had in high school was the best sounding stereo ever, but I got better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by OneEng For the kick, a decent mic would be the Shure Beta52 or Audix D112. Seconded on the Beta-52. (Did you mean "AKG" D112?) There is also an Audix D-series kick mic that a lot of guys around here are raving about -- the D9? Haven't heard it yet. IMO, stay away from the SM91 unless you plan to use a second mic in the kick for bottom. It's just too bright for my ears. Metal players with double kick pedals seem to like it, though, for it's definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garageman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by RickJ There is also an Audix D-series kick mic that a lot of guys around here are raving about -- the D9? the D6.....heard it for the first time the other day and I have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by garageman Audix mics are great for feedback rejection. Just don't buy any vocal mic based on anybodys recommendation. Different voices sound different thru different mics. The worst mic for my voice in the Beta58, while it's the best for my bass player. You just got to try them. If you're a screamer try the Audix OM7. The OM6 is my favorite of the Audix line while most others I know the OM5 suits them best. If feedback is your problem and you decide to solve it by changing your mics, then look for a super cardiod pattern mic.I always find it amusing when I go to small clubs and find the bands micing the drums and electric instruments. Backline should do just fine in your 100 person clubs.I am also very curious how in the world you would mic an ac30 for such a small club. By the time your turn up your ac30 where it starts to sound good, you're already blowing away everyone in the room.. I would mike the kick drum for sure(if you have the resources to reproduce it on the other end)run the bass amp direct and definitely mike the guitar amp.If you are having feedback problems on an amp mike,something is way screwy. I don't know why anyone these days would try to have the stage volume carry the whole room for volume in a 100 person club. That isn't terribly small in a lot of cases,especially if there is a good sized dance floor. For boisterous rock and roll,that would make for a terribly loud stage volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garageman Posted January 12, 2004 Members Share Posted January 12, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead I don't know why anyone these days would try to have the stage volume carry the whole room for volume in a 100 person club. That isn't terribly small in a lot of cases,especially if there is a good sized dance floor. For boisterous rock and roll,that would make for a terribly loud stage volume. If it works for you to mic stuff, then great.We don't mic anything except vocals and just haven't had the need to mic any of the instruments. I've seen many, many bands and I guess it is the way you like to work it. For my stuff, I don't think my amps really start to sound good till we turn them up a bit. Tried the attenuators for the speakers, but for my amps pushing the speaker is part of the sound. I should also add that our setup has come about with a desire to lug as little as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 garageman, Guitar amps are very directional. Lets put the stage volume issue aside for a moment. The fact that the guitar will be 2 times louder to the people the amp is pointed at as the ones it isn't (most of the audience) is reason enough to mic the guitar. Bass isn't directional and is another story altogether. I play guitar myself and am the proud owner of a VHT pittbull. You have to know that I pride myself in tone to have paid for such an amp. I have a 4x12 and a fatbottom 2x12. I don't even plug the 4x12 in. It is for looks and to impress other guitar players that come over to see us in the basement with how loud my rig can get. At a gig, I keep the volume just high enough to get some action off of the strings. It doesn't matter if we are playing for 5 or 500. That is where my volume knob stays. The PA spreads the sound out. I side wash the amp, so there isn't anyone standing more than 10ft from stage that can likely even hear the amp over the PA. This is what makes the band sound good. The soundman decides how loud my guitar is. After all, how could I possibly decide from on-stage? I have no idea what the mix sounds like out front. Besides, we use in-ear monitors so I have what I need to hear anyway. btw, real rock bands mic the kick. There is no other way to sound like a real rock band. No kick mic and you might as well be using a boom box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audioeast Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by RickJ Seconded on the Beta-52. (Did you mean "AKG" D112?)There is also an Audix D-series kick mic that a lot of guys around here are raving about -- the D9? Haven't heard it yet.IMO, stay away from the SM91 unless you plan to use a second mic in the kick for bottom. It's just too bright for my ears. Metal players with double kick pedals seem to like it, though, for it's definition. Audix D6 is this years holy grail IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 I gotta go with garageman on this one. I've heard too many blues bands too many times that sounded fabulous in a club, only micing vocals. Never had a problem with losing the guitar sound if I wasn't sitting right in front of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garageman Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 OneEgg, First, if your setup works for you I have no problems with it. Trial & error till you get the presentation your after is great when you achieve it. No technique is superior to another, but rather how well you are it. I only use open back amps. I think they are less one dimensional in projection and fill up a room better than closed back cabs. Not that I'm the greatest player, or that we're the best band. The one thing that we hear over & over is the complements on our sound, the mix....and we're not even doing anything that special either. I always attributed this that each instrument is projecting from its own point in space rather that all sounds coming from just two speakers. My old girlfriend would always tell me she was a real musician for she could read music and I can't. Now I'm no longer in a real rock band for we don't mic our kick ?? Guess rock 'n roll ain't what is used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garageman Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 DaBender, You understand !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaBender Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 garageman, this reminds me.... In the summer, the local waterfront park has concerts at noon. After we played one a few years ago, I was talking to the owner of a local music shop, who happens to be a rock and roller himself. He complimented me on our sound, saying we sounded much better than most of the bands he's heard there. Not that we PLAYED better or WERE better, but that we SOUNDED better. Coincidentally or not, vocals & sax were the only thing in our PA, while most of the other bands were "miced up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted January 13, 2004 Members Share Posted January 13, 2004 Originally posted by Audioeast Audix D6 is this years holy grail IMO Yep, that and the Audio Technica AE-2500. That thing is freakin' amazing! (but a lot more $) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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