need opinion on live sound philosophy

[Rickr]

Having a problem with the band and need some advise. Not sure if this is the right forum. If not, sorry.

I'm arguing with the band whether a sound man is needed or not. My belief is that even someone running sound who isn't perfect with the equipment but has a good ear will provide the band with a better overall sound than one of the band members would. A soundman has the ability to walk the room, listen, talk to people, and tweak the system as the evening goes on. He's also out to make the entire band sound it's best, just not one person.

A band member on the other hand (in this case the bass player and the lead guitarist) will not be able to walk the room. What's going on with our band is their walking out on the dance floor, standing 10 feet from one of the foh speakers, and coming back and trying to adjust the system. All while trying to play their parts. Missed or messed up leads. When he's singing, forgetting to come back in with the vocals, crap like that are happening, because he's so worried about the sound. You also have the "more me" attitude with a band member running sound.

What are some opinions on this?

Am I wrong?

 

Thanks,

Rickr

[agedhorse]

In general, I agree with your position... but the person you choose to be your sound guy needs to be interested in learning how things work, and how to listen and grow his skills with the band. A babysitter is only marginally better than what you already have.

[Rickr]

I agree. My oldest boy, who's a freshman in college, has a contract with the local schools to run audio/video for the school. Been running it since 9th grade. Getting pretty good at it. His younger brother, a junior in high school, has been assisting him for a couple of years. Both have good ears, musically talented, and the desire. I own all equipment, so they get to play with the stuff between gigs. They've ran sound for us on a number of occasions, with compliments on sound from everyone. The best part is they'll do the sound for $20 a show. They want to learn and be part of it all. The lead guitarist went wireless a few shows ago, and since then has been wandering out a dozen times a show, listening, coming back and chewing on my boys cause he's not loud enough. My own opinion is it's simply a "more me" issue. He tells me he's ran sound forever, know's what he's doing, and that I just don't trust him. Causing a real rift in the band. Just trying to get opinions before I tear the band up over this.

The other night my son told him we wre clipping the amps, so e couldn't go any louder, (not true, but he couldn't see the amps, so he had no way of knowing that) and he started cussing my boy out. (yea, some alcohol involved). That's when the poop really started hitting the propeller. Just not sure how hard to push this issue. He's already showed a lack of respect for the equipment as well as my boys. What ya think?

[Craig Vecchione]

I think you need to rethink the lead guitarist. A difference of opinion on sound is one thing, being disrespectful to your kids right in front of you is quite another. Call me touchy, but I'd have put him in a horizontal position if he pulled that crap with my kids.

[Rickr]

Came awful close. That's pretty much my thought too, but the lead guitarist, bass player, and drummer are all family, and are telling me if he goes, so will they, cause they don't want family problems. Just about decided it's time for me to walk. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't just being an arrogant s.o.b. or something.

By the way, it was a free benefit, my boy wasn't even getting paid. After listening to him complain for about an hour and a half, my boy said screw you, reset the board to 0, muted the lead guitarist, and walked out. Thought that was kind of cool.

Probably time for a new band.

Later

[agedhorse]

It's all about attitude...

[ApocalypseGuitar]

Originally posted by Rickr Came awful close. That's pretty much my thought too, but the lead guitarist, bass player, and drummer are all family, and are telling me if he goes, so will they, cause they don't want family problems. Just about decided it's time for me to walk. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't just being an arrogant s.o.b. or something. By the way, it was a free benefit, my boy wasn't even getting paid. After listening to him complain for about an hour and a half, my boy said screw you, reset the board to 0, muted the lead guitarist, and walked out. Thought that was kind of cool. Probably time for a new band. Later

 

If it wasn't for the family thing, I say get rid of the guitarist. I'm a guitarist and we're a dime a dozen. But you might want to talk to the rest of the band about what he has been doing and get their opinions. Family is one thing, but when the guy is a drunk who is being a jerk, that's another.

 

Your boy probably made the guitarist sound better by muting him. I have a feeling that this is one of those guitarist that wants his amp blasting but then gripes about how he can't hear the monitors while he's turning up the amp.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by Rickr After listening to him complain for about an hour and a half, my boy said screw you, reset the board to 0, muted the lead guitarist, and walked out.

 

 

I like his style.

[Rickr]

 

Your boy probably made the guitarist sound better by muting him. I have a feeling that this is one of those guitarist that wants his amp blasting but then gripes about how he can't hear the monitors while he's turning up the amp.

 

 

You hit the nail on the head. Then it's a vicious circle. I can't hear me, so turn me up, then bass player can't hear, so turn him up. Before you know it the dang stage volume is higher than the foh. Drives you nuts.

[ApocalypseGuitar]

 

Originally posted by Rickr You hit the nail on the head. Then it's a vicious circle. I can't hear me, so turn me up, then bass player can't hear, so turn him up. Before you know it the dang stage volume is higher than the foh. Drives you nuts.

 

 

When I work with a band that has that kind of mentality (whether I have worked with them before or not), I know that they wont listen to me right off.

 

So if we have a few hours to kill, I'll let them run their amps at what they want and make as mucch stage noise as they want to. Then when they stop and all start complaining that they can't hear this or that, I calmly pick w/ my board mic (making sure that it blast through the monitors) and tell them that they are going to now do it my way.

 

Amps turned almost all the way down, depending if I'm going line out or not. And run through a song to get monitor levels happy. If a guitarist or bass player reaches to turn up his/her amp(s), I simply go up on stage and turn it back down and tell them that it they do that again, I'm going to break the shaft of the volume pot off.

 

It would be one thing if they actually used their amps to monitor their playing, but it's just a "let's see who has the biggest set of balls" mentality.

[ToBeAnnounced]

This thread struck a nerve with me. Our band is named after the Singer/Songwriter/Band leader, she owns the PA, and insists on running it from the stage.

 

Last Saturday, her family came to the show and sat right in front of the bandstand. Of course, her vocals were never loud enough in the PA, according to everyone at her family's table (never mind that anyone near a PA speaker thought they were more than enough).

 

As a result, she kept screwing with the volume settings until everything was feeding back, then adjusting the eq trying to fix that. I tried to explain to her that her people needed to walk around the club a bit, and then maybe they'd get the big picture, but she wasn't listening (probably deafened by the constant feedback).

 

At load out, I suggested that we look for someone to run sound for us, but the thought of taking another cut out of our meager pay freaked everyone out. Hell, they're probably secretly discussing how much more they'd each make if they fired the bass player (i.e. ME)

[Unalaska]

Damn... I forgot how bad it can be at times. The gigs I do these days pay a helluv a lot more than they did when I lived in the midwest and dealt with this stuff. Now a days I run my own sound stuff if needed or the house has an engineer and a decent system.

 

These days when my band needs a system I run it from stage (I'd rather hire a sound guy but again lack of money, and I do a pretty good job if I must say so myself). First thing to do is to get monitor world happy. You band doesn't care how it sounds out front, really. I use a vocals only monitor system, if someone wants bass/kick/keys then I'll put it in. With 4 mixes and 5/6 people I can usually acomodate. All our amps are basically short throw (I use a David Eden 210XLT, guitarist a Fender Hot Rod, keys uses a Mackie SRM450) so sound is somewhat contained but I know we're loud.

 

The FOH has the horsepower to fill the room. There have been times where band members have said,"Do we really need subs here?" I understand, the last gig that question was asked we had to load thru two elevators and it was a bitch. But every time it's come up after the gig I get the,"I guess we really needed them (or it if we used just one)."

 

I run a wireless and don't sing lead so I usually get monitors going then walk the room on the first song where guitar is pretty loud, backgroud vocals are happening and keys are heavy in the song. That gets me a 90% feel of balance and I'll check it a few times more that night. Just walk out there. I don't however keep turning myself up because I can't hear clarity from the bass. I will adjust my amp EQ to help the bass cut thru a bit.

 

All that being said, I'd like to have someone out front, but since I can run the whole show on an 01v then I'll do it myself. Plus I don't know anyone who's comfortable using the 01v live and I don't want to bring my big racks or crap for 13 channels. Call me lazy I guess...

 

pete

[Old Steve]

First of all, Rickr, your son's reaction to the guitarist was right on the money. There's a fine line between having a disagreement and just being treated like crap. Not that people shouldn't have the huevos to take it when they get chewed on once in a while (happens to everyone) but once that line is crossed where it becomes personal or otherwise ugly, there's no reason to just sit there and take it.

 

As for the soundguy vs. band member running sound there's plenty to consider. First of all, if it's a simple rig, speakers on sticks, vocals only kind of deal, a soundguy might be overkill. On the other hand, if you're playing at Ozzfest, you probably ought to have somebody spending 100% of their time worrying about the sound. The point is, a soundguy is usually preferable, and becomes more necessary as things get more complicated.

 

On the flipside, IMHO an inexperienced soundguy, or muso who thinks they understand PA gear because they own a guitar amp can be WORSE than no soundguy at all. Mixing a band is a whole lot more complicated than most people think, and unless you truly understand the equipment, have confidence in your own ears (so you can stand up to the 'more me' musicians who will get in your face), you can make matters worse.

 

Here's an example: take your band for instance, and lets say you get 'a guy' to run sound, but the 'guy' is relatively untrained. Guitar guy yells at him to turn up the guitar, and the guy doesn't know better and turns him up to shut him up. A little later, he can't hear the vocalist, so he turns him up. You know the cycle...individual things keep getting louder, the whole thing gets TOO loud, the guy doesn't recognize that the system is clipping...hey, did we bring a smoke machine, or is that speaker on fire?!? A more experienced guy might realize that in order to bring the guitar up in the mix, he's better off turning everything else down, or playing with the eq to bring the guitar out a little more in the mix, or maybe he'd have both the knowledge and backbone to tell the guitarist that he's not going to get any louder (or maybe he's crafty enough to turn him up in the monitor, but not out in front, so the guitarist 'thinks' he's louder ).

 

Anyway, it sounds like your son was a pretty good solution...he was pretty knowledgeable, and he didn't cost much...a nice solution for most bands.

 

My band is continually going through the same debate. Right now, we run our system from the stage, but we all agree that we COULD sound better with a good soundguy. The problem is, so far none of the names that have been suggested are even remotely qualified. To me, there's more to being a soundguy than being a guy who's willing to come to our shows, drink free beer and hang out. Hell, our last 'soundguy candidate' was a guitarist from another band who was suggesting that our 'problem' was that we needed to turn up all of the amps on stage louder.....hmmm. Next contestant, please.

[J.]

Ugh, having a bad soundman is the worst. My old band used a guy for a lot of our shows that was slightly better than terrible. He owned a lot of the rack gear we needed and was a really nice guy overall, so we agreed to let him run sound.

 

He had a very interesting approach to micing the bass drum- he'd completely zero out the bass on the channel strip eq and refuse to bump it up even a notch. Needless to say our bass drum sound was nothing but 'thwick! thwick!'