Well, here's my "small club PA"

[RoboPimp]

here's a run down of what I'm now seriously considering:

 

Crown CE4000 - half for main tops and half for subs

Crown Xs500 - monitor power

2 EV SX300

2 15" or 18" single subs 500 watts RMS birch plywood construction (would 18"s produce THAT much more bass for same power handling?)

4 12" and horns monitor wedges birch ply construction 300 watts RMS

1 Rapco Signal series 16X4 snake (lifetime warranty)

8 20' Rapco mic cords (lifetime warranty)

6 Samson R11 mics (cheap as dirt and I think they sound good)

5 On Stage Boom mic stands (lifetime warranty)

peavey PV231 dual mono 31 band EQ (monitors)

peavey PV 2 way crossover (mains)

 

there's a tight budget and I am pushing it to the limit.

 

anything totally wrong about this set up, it's for small clubs less than 300 people.

[dboomer]

Well, here's my OPINION (I'm sure other's will have their own).

 

Don't buy cheap mics, you'll be sorry when they feedback way too soon.

 

I'd can all the speaker/amp/crossover/eq for Mackie, Yorkville or JBL self powered boxes. It will sound better than the stuff you've outlined and you don't have to think about it ....a gorilla can hook it up with no problems ( not that I'm insinuating that you are a gorilla ... you may be a ferret ). It is EQed, time aligned, would be tri-amped, and the amps have been matched to the specific transducers in the boxes. Oh yeah, you'll have to buy a few extension cords.

 

With respect to monitors, your info is nearly useless.

[abzurd]

???

 

From the questions you've asked, this is what you came up with? I mean it will work, but assuming you have none of it yet, there is better for comparable money in nearly everything you mention.

 

1) You'll get more mileage out of 2 QSC2450's for the same price as the CE4000 and have more flexible options. The 4000 is a monster that's too much for a lot of speakers, even at 8 ohms. No sense painting yourself into a corner buying the largest amp you can afford.

 

2) I'm sure the Xs500 is a good amp, but if you're on a tight budget, you can do better than $600 for a single monitor amp. In fact you can get 2 monitor amps (for a total of 4 mixes) for the same money.

 

3) Thumbs down on the Rapco snake. Audiopile has a MUCH better snake with 1/4" and XLR returns for comperable price to the Rapco. In fact do yourself a favor and get professional grade cabling at "crappy cable" prices by buying all of it from Audiopile. Preplan and make one order and the shipping won't be that bad. I can vouch for snakes, insert cables, speaker cables, instrument cables, microphone cables, etc. It's all good stuff.

 

4) Peavey crossover and EQ will serve you well. Good job there.

 

5) SX300 is a fine box (although I'm a Yorkville man). My opinion is go powered for FOH and passive for the monitors, but that's just a personal preference.

 

6) I agree about the mics - don't go too cheap. That said, the R11 is practically free so you can always upgrade later. May as wll just get the Behringer XM8500 (they're even less).

 

So what is the total budget for this project?

[RoboPimp]

 

Originally posted by abzurd ??? From the questions you've asked, this is what you came up with? I mean it will work, but assuming you have none of it yet, there is better for comparable money in nearly everything you mention. well, I'm trying! 1) You'll get more mileage out of 2 QSC2450's for the same price as the CE4000 and have more flexible options. The 4000 is a monster that's too much for a lot of speakers, even at 8 ohms. No sense painting yourself into a corner buying the largest amp you can afford. I can see the merit in this, I was considering the crown because of the excellent build quality and plenty of power in a light weight. Apparently the power supply is the same as the K2. Which means it can put out loads of nice clean power. Plus I can get the crown locally and they will give me another amp while the crown gets fixed. plus the price I got is less than 2 QSC2450's (about a grand) I have considered going for two amps but I'm not convinced either way. I'm leaning towards the CE4000 2) I'm sure the Xs500 is a good amp, but if you're on a tight budget, you can do better than $600 for a single monitor amp. In fact you can get 2 monitor amps (for a total of 4 mixes) for the same money. same story as above, I can get the crown Xs500 for about $500 and it handles plenty of monitors, what 2 amps with crown's reputation can I get for $250? (honestly curious) I also have an older yorkville amp for another monitor mix if need be, but I really only need two and was thinking the crown would be a quality way to go again with plenty of power. 3) Thumbs down on the Rapco snake. Audiopile has a MUCH better snake with 1/4" and XLR returns for comperable price to the Rapco. In fact do yourself a favor and get professional grade cabling at "crappy cable" prices by buying all of it from Audiopile. Preplan and make one order and the shipping won't be that bad. I can vouch for snakes, insert cables, speaker cables, instrument cables, microphone cables, etc. It's all good stuff. all the rapco stuff has a lifetime warranty w/ the local place and they are giving me a great price for them. If it fails I get a new one, no shipping or waiting. That's my reasoning there. I've used rapco cables for a long time, they make decent stuff. The speaker cables are 12 gauge speakon. Not a crappy cable IMHO. 4) Peavey crossover and EQ will serve you well. Good job there. 5) SX300 is a fine box (although I'm a Yorkville man). My opinion is go powered for FOH and passive for the monitors, but that's just a personal preference. I like the sound of these EVs. I've always thought that EV made a fine sounding speaker. I am getting these because I think they sound really good. I did a sound test with them at the music store and they delivered the goods. 6) I agree about the mics - don't go too cheap. That said, the R11 is practically free so you can always upgrade later. May as wll just get the Behringer XM8500 (they're even less). I can appreciate the thought here as well, it's really a budget issue. I've used these mics before and they sound great and have no noticable feedback issues (Hypercardioid). Very close to a SM58 IMHO"flame away" they are not samsons CHEAPEST mic, have neo mags and handle decent SPL w/good fequency response (50 - 15000). Not saying they are the greatest, but seriously, they are not bad. So what is the total budget for this project?

 

 

total budget so far is about $4,500.

 

I haven't purchased yet and I appreciate the honest opinions. Please feel free to give me more thoughts.

 

I'm also considering a Beta 52 mic for kick because I think this is one thing that needs to be good to pick up that extra fat kick sound...

[abzurd]

QSC RMX850 can be had for $279 (delivered w/ no tax). 200W to an efficient 12" cabinet should suffice and you can get 4 mixes.

 

QSC RMX2450 can be had for $506 (again, delivered price with no tax).

 

I can appriciate wanting light weight and 33 lbs & 3U is a nice package. The two issues are - redundancy: if that amp goes, your whole PA goes and flexibility: that's a lot of power per channel and may not mesh well with a lot of configurations. It's a trade off I guess.

 

$4500 for a mains and monitors system is going to be pushing it. You don't mention much about monitors or subs. What are you looking at?

[RoboPimp]

 

Originally posted by abzurd QSC RMX850 can be had for $279 (delivered w/ no tax). 200W to an efficient 12" cabinet should suffice and you can get 4 mixes. QSC RMX2450 can be had for $506 (again, delivered price with no tax). definitely interesting... I'm going to have to think about this. I can appriciate wanting light weight and 33 lbs & 3U is a nice package. The two issues are - redundancy: if that amp goes, your whole PA goes and flexibility: that's a lot of power per channel and may not mesh well with a lot of configurations. It's a trade off I guess. the redundancy issue is solved because if the crown were ever to break it's got a 3 year no fault warranty w/ all shipping covered and the store I'm buying it from will give me another amp for as long as it would take to get the broken one fixed. But part of my reasoning for the CE4000 is it is such a beast and able to handle extreme loads with ease, it shouldn't be pushed hard at all w/my set-up. The 1,200 watts at 4 ohms is a perfect match for the pair of EV SX300s (600 watts program each) from what everyone is telling me. Everyone tells me to throw a lot of clean power into a speaker for it to sound it's best. $4500 for a mains and monitors system is going to be pushing it. You don't mention much about monitors or subs. What are you looking at?

 

 

I have a local guy who builds PA cabs and he has birch ply cabs. He has great prices and I am getting monitors for about $200 a pair. they are loaded with decent cheap drivers and hopefully they will sound good. This system is mainly for pesonal use and I've used some crap monitors in my time, so these aren't going to have to be anything incredible to be a huge improvement.

 

The same guy also sells subs for cheap, so I am going to check out a pair of monitors and if they sound good I'll consider the subs as well.

 

I now realize how $4,500 is not very much for a whole PA system, even without a mixer. I'm really trying to research and make the right choices. I appreciate the feedback.

[abzurd]

decent cheap drivers huh ...... good luck with that. I'm not sure how a $100 a piece (obviously piezo loaded), home built monitor is going to be an improvement.

 

I assume you've heard these side by side with your current monitors. The "hopefully" comment doesn't infer that you have. If not, RUN, don't walk, away from this!

 

BTW - cheap mics and piezos aren't a good combination in high SPL situations.

[RoboPimp]

 

Originally posted by abzurd decent cheap drivers huh ...... good luck with that. I'm not sure how a $100 a piece (obviously piezo loaded), home built monitor is going to be an improvement. I assume you've heard these side by side with your current monitors. The "hopefully" comment doesn't infer that you have. If not, RUN, don't walk, away from this! BTW - cheap mics and piezos aren't a good combination in high SPL situations.

 

 

Actually, supposedly titanium diaphram compression driver horns, 3" VC cast frame woofers. 300 watts RMS. I am DEFINITELY going to do an "ear test" with these and take them apart to look at the drivers. I'll let you know how they sound. But I am familiar with piezo tweets as the monitors I use now DO have them and I hate them.

 

All very good points you've brought up and I am thankful for the input.

[abzurd]

There just ain't no way! 1/2 way decent woofer, compression driver, crossover, jackplate,horn lens, cabinet, hardware, carpet, glue, corners, grill, port tube, wiring, insulation, screws PLUS labor AND a profit for the guy all for $100?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by RoboPimp I have a local guy who builds PA cabs and he has birch ply cabs. He has great prices and I am getting monitors for about $200 a pair. they are loaded with decent cheap drivers and hopefully they will sound good. This system is mainly for pesonal use and I've used some crap monitors in my time, so these aren't going to have to be anything incredible to be a huge improvement. The same guy also sells subs for cheap, so I am going to check out a pair of monitors and if they sound good I'll consider the subs as well. I now realize how $4,500 is not very much for a whole PA system, even without a mixer. I'm really trying to research and make the right choices. I appreciate the feedback.

I paid $445 each for these subs. www.sonicspeaker.com/18e.htm As for the mics,I think the R11 sounds very bad. The Samson Q-mic is pretty decent for the price,however. One question,why don't you ask this builder how much he would sell the monitors cabs for unloaded.

[vetstudent]

I'm not trying to be turd or anything as I know nothing about PA's. I'm just curious as to why you ask a question about if your choices were good, and when obviously well educated people respond with their opinion you want to argue that you already know what you want to do??? I'm really confused??? You seem to already have your mind made up... what's the purpose of your question?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by vetstudent I'm not trying to be turd or anything as I know nothing about PA's. I'm just curious as to why you ask a question about if your choices were good, and when obviously well educated people respond with their opinion you want to argue that you already know what you want to do??? I'm really confused??? You seem to already have your mind made up... what's the purpose of your question?

You noticed that too,huh?

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by abzurd ??? 3) Thumbs down on the Rapco snake. Audiopile has a MUCH better snake with 1/4" and XLR returns for comperable price to the Rapco. In fact do yourself a favor and get professional grade cabling at "crappy cable" prices by buying all of it from Audiopile. Preplan and make one order and the shipping won't be that bad. I can vouch for snakes, insert cables, speaker cables, instrument cables, microphone cables, etc. It's all good stuff.

 

Thanks for the thumbs up.

 

Sorry about the "back order" on the supplied link. I'm working on that. I'm having a few problems keeping sufficent supplys of stuff in-stock. It would be really nice to have the EWI factory here and we could build everything to order. I guess I just need a bigger warehouse. Liz and I just got back from another scouting trip to Kansas. We're still fixing on moving to that general area if we find the right place. I dunno... maybe we'll have to build something. We found a neat old school in Amy, Kansas that would be perfect... except it's been let go to pot.

 

Anyway... I'll vouch for Rapco... in-that I have a 20 year old Rapco snake that's been beat to death and is still 100%. There's nothing wrong with their stuff if it is still built to the quality it was in the past, and if you have a local dealer who will treat you right on what you need... you can't go wrong. I'm proud to have the EWI gear recommended in the company of Rapco.

[RoboPimp]

Originally posted by vetstudent I'm not trying to be turd or anything as I know nothing about PA's. I'm just curious as to why you ask a question about if your choices were good, and when obviously well educated people respond with their opinion you want to argue that you already know what you want to do??? I'm really confused??? You seem to already have your mind made up... what's the purpose of your question?

 

heheh, sorry if it seems like that.

 

I do have a strong idea of what I want, mainly I am posting this in case there is something real important I am forgetting, or an obvious totally wrong piece of gear.

 

I am still open to suggestions

 

I am still thinking about two smaller power amps

 

I really don't mean to be agrumentative

[RoboPimp]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Anyway... I'll vouch for Rapco... in-that I have a 20 year old Rapco snake that's been beat to death and is still 100%. There's nothing wrong with their stuff if it is still built to the quality it was in the past, and if you have a local dealer who will treat you right on what you need... you can't go wrong. I'm proud to have the EWI gear recommended in the company of Rapco.

 

 

I thought that made sense, and it's in no way slagging your stuff. I came very close to bidding on the 16+8 100' snake w/reel on ebay, but it exceeded what I would pay for the rapco locally and even though I know it's probably as good or better, having the local support and lifetime warranty means more to me. Doesn't seem like a terrible decision.

[Brad Harris]

 

Originally posted by RoboPimp the redundancy issue is solved because if the crown were ever to break it's got a 3 year no fault warranty w/ all shipping covered and the store I'm buying it from will give me another amp for as long as it would take to get the broken one fixed. But part of my reasoning for the CE4000 is it is such a beast and able to handle extreme loads with ease, it shouldn't be pushed hard at all w/my set-up. The 1,200 watts at 4 ohms is a perfect match for the pair of EV SX300s (600 watts program each) from what everyone is telling me. Everyone tells me to throw a lot of clean power into a speaker for it to sound it's best.

 

 

To clear up a term here. REDUNDANCY.

 

I believe what Abzurd was getting at is a little different from what you replied to. Both are correct however ...

 

Is your retailer going to follow you to every gig to swap out your crown amp if something happens to it??

 

Redundancy, for the most part, refers in how can you elieviate problems w/out pulling from a gig. Even if you think the CE4K can handle anything you throw at it, what happens when noise starts to creep up? A misplaced liquid? Transportation damage (which is 100% unnavoidable btw)?

 

By splitting the load down to 2 smaller amps. I'm not familiar with the speakers in question, but running mid/hi's off an amp, and subs on the other, if a channel doesn't perform as required, you can shift whatever is on that channel (say 2nd Sub), onto the working channel of that same amp. It also gives you the option of stereo operation if you desire.

 

What happens if your monitor amp dies? no monitors for the show? THAT SUCKS . If you had the 2 amps, you could shift the subs together, and run a monitor mix, or put the tops, drop a sub, and run the tops together and have 2 monitor mixes, etc.

 

I assume you bring a few extra cables, same concept, you are just bringing in a little more lead.

 

I know it may be a bigger investment in the beginning, but in the end, when something happens to an amp, or channel, your prepaired for it. That way, a day or two after the gig (so you can rest), just go over to the store, and get your loaner while your amp is being fixed.

 

Also, whats the plan 3 years from now? all new amp(s)?

 

And yes, clean headroom is a nice thing, but what your talking about is like delivering eggs in a rally car out on the back roads.

[RoboPimp]

I understand the benefit of having two amps, and I actually have a 450 watt yorkville amp to bring along so I will have redundancy.

 

So that's no longer an issue. Now I have three amps.

 

Anything else you wanted to comment on? I appreciate your input.

[J the D]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Liz and I just got back from another scouting trip to Kansas. We're still fixing on moving to that general area if we find the right place. I dunno... maybe we'll have to build something. We found a neat old school in Amy, Kansas that would be perfect... except it's been let go to pot.

 

 

Look at the Airport Commerce Park in Salinas.

[RoboPimp]

 

Originally posted by Brad Harris And yes, clean headroom is a nice thing, but what your talking about is like delivering eggs in a rally car out on the back roads.

 

 

I'm not sure what this analogy is meant to represent?

 

You think I am overpowering these speakers?

[abzurd]

Thanks Brad. Yes, that's what I meant. Also, as we all know, our first attempt at a PA is seldom how the system looks even a year later (especially if you're gigging' with it and making money to justify putting back in it). Multiple smaller amps will not only give you redundancy for failures, but also be friendlier as your PA morphs. For example moving one to monitor duty for more mixes and upgrade a sub amp.

 

Also, if you have amps already (Yorkville you mention), put your available cash into mics or speakers. Your subs and monitors sound extremely shaky. Cheap-o, home built subs for ludicrously low price just has "bad idea" written all over it.

[RoboPimp]

just a note:

 

This "redundancy" issue seems to be another factor for why I wouldn't want powered speakers. If an amp goes, there's no switching amps around, that whole speaker is gone, or at least one of the drivers. You're screwed it seems.