PA reccomendation

[phunkyhick]

Starting a new band, and just need a drummer. We are going to need a PA that is enough for practice, parties, and strip mall bars. Most places beyond that, in my experience, have house sound.

 

Budget: We don't want to spend much, we want something that will sound decent, but it doesn't need to be amazing, shouldn't sound like crap and distort all the time as well.

 

Currently we have 5 mics between us. 4 piece band. Guitar/bg vox, Guitar/ lead vocals, bass/bg vox, drums.

 

We'd like to run drums stereo, thinking 4 mics, L overhead ,R overhead, snare, Kick.

 

Need guitar and vocal input for all of us. May want singer to switch to acoustic occasionally.

 

Drummer: guessing 4 or 5 piece kit most likely, no dbl bass.

-Singer has Telecaster and will get Fender Hot Rod Deville 40 or 60 watt.

-Lead Gtr has Ampeg R212R 50W combo

-Bass has Mesa/Boogie Bass 400 (300 watts) and 15" cab (will ad 210 in future.

 

I'm guessing we will need 10 inputs, wouldn't hurt to have a little flexibility there.

 

Any suggestions for a decent PA on a Budget. The bass forum has a reccomended "budget rig". Is there a Budget PA here?

[nin4269]

It's a little more extensive than "budget rig."

 

I would be best for you to do a search and see some of the threads that have covered this subject.

 

You'll find that a lot of questions get asked a lot, and rather than repeat themselves a lot of guys here just refer you to an old post.

 

Also a cheap PA that would accomodate mic'd drums is not very likley. Maybe kick only, but overheads.

 

And when you say "budget" what sort of catagory are you thinking? It adds up really fast.

[tlbonehead]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick Starting a new band, and just need a drummer. We are going to need a PA that is enough for practice, parties, and strip mall bars. Most places beyond that, in my experience, have house sound. Budget: We don't want to spend much, we want something that will sound decent, but it doesn't need to be amazing, shouldn't sound like crap and distort all the time as well. Currently we have 5 mics between us. 4 piece band. Guitar/bg vox, Guitar/ lead vocals, bass/bg vox, drums. We'd like to run drums stereo, thinking 4 mics, L overhead ,R overhead, snare, Kick. Need guitar and vocal input for all of us. May want singer to switch to acoustic occasionally. Drummer: guessing 4 or 5 piece kit most likely, no dbl bass. -Singer has Telecaster and will get Fender Hot Rod Deville 40 or 60 watt. -Lead Gtr has Ampeg R212R 50W combo -Bass has Mesa/Boogie Bass 400 (300 watts) and 15" cab (will ad 210 in future. I'm guessing we will need 10 inputs, wouldn't hurt to have a little flexibility there. Any suggestions for a decent PA on a Budget. The bass forum has a reccomended "budget rig". Is there a Budget PA here?

It looks like you will probably want at least 12 mic channels,if not more,unless you submix the drums. As for going stereo on the drums,I like doing it on occasion but not the way you have explained. I doubt that overheads are going to give you much separation. It works if you are miking the drums separately. And since you want to run the drums,especially the kick,through the mains,says that you will want to go with subs and then mid/high cabs. And then monitors for each member,especially everyone who sings. You didn't mention your genre,so I'll assume energetic typical rock/pop. Anyway,minimum you will want would be a pair of 12" top cabs and a pair of modest front load 18"subs. Probably 1000 sub watts and 600 or so to the top cabs. And about 150-200 watts to each monitor cab. Here's an estimate on the lowest-priced,yet still usable for good sound NEW equipment to get started.

 

Mixer---------------------$450

2 subs-------------------$700

2 top cabs--------------$400

4 monitors--------------$700

sub power--------------$450

top and mon power---$450

 

That is $3150 and does not include some needed items like EQ's,effects,racks,hook-up and speaker cabling,stands,mics,etc,tax/shipping. So figure maybe $4500 or so,and this is for lowest cost usable equipment. BTW,this is for smallest clubs,under 75-100 person size.

[phunkyhick]

My old band got by with a lot less than you mentioned. I know they only had 2 15" speakers and 2 12" monitors. They had a Yamaha powered mixer w/ 8 channels. We needed more inputs. I have no idea how much power we had. We didn't have subs and we sounded fine.

 

We are playing rock.

 

Most venues that a sub would be necessary for will have their own sound. We're just looking for something to get us through the little backyard parties and small strip mall bars w/ tiny stages. What do you think of Carvin? We were looking at this system w/ monitors:

 

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=P1200-1540&CID=SYS1

 

We do have a Behringer mixer to submix if necessary.

 

We can spend what is necessary, but ultimately, we want to be playing those venues that have their own soundman, generally those are the better places. Obviously, if we went on tour, we'd need more PA, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by phunkyhick My old band got by with a lot less than you mentioned. I know they only had 2 15" speakers and 2 12" monitors. They had a Yamaha powered mixer w/ 8 channels. We needed more inputs. I have no idea how much power we had. We didn't have subs and we sounded fine. We are playing rock. Most venues that a sub would be necessary for will have their own sound. We're just looking for something to get us through the little backyard parties and small strip mall bars w/ tiny stages. What do you think of Carvin? We were looking at this system w/ monitors: http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=P1200-1540&CID=SYS1 We do have a Behringer mixer to submix if necessary.

If you just need more channels and are somehow satisfied with your system,just submix your drums. What I don't understand is why some people think that you don't want the same sound in small venues than in large ones. Do you only want to feel the kick drum in large settings? Don't you want the same tone(only less output)in a smaller setting. Anyway,if you are happy with it,why get a different little rig instead? My opinion on Carvin. It is ok stuff but nothing like the deal and quality that they make it out to be.

[Emprov]

Hey PH, have you checked out any powered speakers? Sounds like, for your budget, you can get yourself into a nice set of Yorkville NX350's and a used Peavey 12 or 16 track board. Guaranteed to sound much better and be more versitile than the Carvin system that you're looking at.

[phunkyhick]

 

Originally posted by tlbonehead If you just need more channels and are somehow satisfied with your system,just submix your drums. What I don't understand is why some people think that you don't want the same sound in small venues than in large ones. Do you only want to feel the kick drum in large settings? Don't you want the same tone(only less output)in a smaller setting. Anyway,if you are happy with it,why get a different little rig instead? My opinion on Carvin. It is ok stuff but nothing like the deal and quality that they make it out to be.

 

 

My old band had a PA, my new band does not have one at all. We want good sound, and subs would be nice, however, in my experience, the larger venues have sound already.

 

We would like to be able to run a little bit of reverb on the vocals.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by phunkyhick My old band had a PA, my new band does not have one at all. We want good sound, and subs would be nice, however, in my experience, the larger venues have sound already. We would like to be able to run a little bit of reverb on the vocals.

Yes,I understand. I was speaking only about a very small system for the crowds and venues of 50-80 people. Good luck.

[Blue Monkey]

2 SRM-450's 400W - 1400.

1 1801 sub 1400W - 1200.

1604 VLZ Pro 16 channel - 1000

Dual channel EQ - 330.

I use SRM-450 monitors - 700 per

 

For bigger gigs,

Add 2 1530's for FOH 2000.00

Add 1 1801 Sub 1200.00

 

All active, all easy to set up and break down. I'll be active from here on, it's easier and sounds great.

[dboomer]

This question get re-asked about once a week on this board (doesn't anyone see the "search button in the upper right?).

 

I'm gonna save you a ton of trouble so listen up!!

 

You mentioned using 10 inputs with 4 mics on drums. If that's the case you are completely fooling yourself if you aren't prepared to spend $5K or better for new gear unless you are planning on playing at such a low level that you don't need a system. Whoever it was that posted last week about his small system causing a riot outdoors running just vocals through it and being able to hear the band for blocks ... well it wasn't the PA that was carrying the band ... bands with amps will do that on their own. If you consider $5K a budget system then there is hope for you and all mankind. If you think like most guys that ask this question ... get this answer ... and then re-phrase the question 27 times hoping for a better outcome ... please don't waste our time.

 

There are lots of folks here with good ideas that are happy to share their experience ... me, I just have a big mouth:D

[dboomer]

I'd like to comment about the two systems that were itemized so far.

 

Nobody makes a pair of $400 top cabs that when run with a $450 amp that will come anywhere close to approaching the quality or useable SPL of systems like that Mackie 450, Eons Yorkville 550s and similar ... in fact they SUCK! The Bi-amped systems are no brainers to set up and a lot of engineering (by real engineers) has been built inside them. There is no extra protection circuitry included (or needed) because you can't abuse the amps and therefore no amp protection degredation in the sound or performance. The amplifier design and drivers are optimized to work together. They are small and lightweight. Even the old style Eons at $399 each will smoke the passive set mentioned.

[Rbts]

You should really think about what your long range wishes are.

 

My personal suggestion is to get an Allen Heath Mix Whiz 16 channel board, and four Yorkville NX 550P speakers. (These are powered speakers.)

 

You will be able to get the "good" sound that you want, and have some kick ass monitors as well. This "system" will be really flexible, and you will never regret having good stuff to work with. Probably.... you will decide to go ahead and get a yorkville powered sub as well, and then you will really sound good. Untill you get a sub woofer, you will not be runing the drums or bass guitar through your PA.... but of course you may not really need to.

 

IF you do end up needing to run your drums and bass guitar through your PA, then you will have to get sub woofers to sound good.

 

Good luck.

[Emprov]

 

Originally posted by Rbts My personal suggestion is to get an Allen Heath Mix Whiz 16 channel board, and four Yorkville NX 550P speakers. (These are powered speakers.)

 

 

Ok, stupid question coming up: Phunkyhick said that the system was going to be for rehearsals, strip mall bars and small parties. Given those situations, (lots of ambient noise w/exception of rehearsals), what will spending a lot more cash on an A & H buy them that they wouldn't get on, say an RQ2318?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by dboomer I'd like to comment about the two systems that were itemized so far. Nobody makes a pair of $400 top cabs that when run with a $450 amp that will come anywhere close to approaching the quality or useable SPL of systems like that Mackie 450, Eons Yorkville 550s and similar ... in fact they SUCK! The Bi-amped systems are no brainers to set up and a lot of engineering (by real engineers) has been built inside them. There is no extra protection circuitry included (or needed) because you can't abuse the amps and therefore no amp protection degredation in the sound or performance. The amplifier design and drivers are optimized to work together. They are small and lightweight. Even the old style Eons at $399 each will smoke the passive set mentioned.

I somewhat disagree. I know of some 12" or 15" 2-way cabs with Eminence Delta woofers and Eminence PS2002 or Selenium DT205/DT210 high drivers that can be bought for around $200 each if you really shop and bargain. Or the American Audio APX152 for $199,they are surprising. And when I listed a $450 dollar amp,I was thinking mainly of an RMX1850 with one side running the mid-high cabs and the other side running some monitors. So really,you are looking at $225 for powering the cabs.That's $425-450 for top cabs and power. I've been around the old style EON 15's long enough to know what they have. They don't have too much grunt. I'll definitely agree,they are probably a bit more "idiot-proof". But I guarantee that the stuff I was thinking of would easily keep up with a pair of original EON's. Of course,had you mentioned the Samson DB500 active models,which recently were at $369 recently in PSSL's outlet section,I might have agreed. Either way,I agree that you can't do something for nothing and I was bottom-line pricing about as far as possible.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by Emprov Ok, stupid question coming up: Phunkyhick said that the system was going to be for rehearsals, strip mall bars and small parties. Given those situations, (lots of ambient noise w/exception of rehearsals), what will spending a lot more cash on an A & H buy them that they wouldn't get on, say an RQ2318?

Ya,I'd agree here. I'm sure you could sound 99.999% as good with the Peavey. I'm sure the A/H is a better unit,but the Peavey should be plenty good. In fact,as far as sound,I'm perfectly satisfied with my Behringer mixer soundwise. I think it sounds great and my system is virtually noise-free. Now,if only I could trust it. That's my sole reason for looking for something else.

[phunkyhick]

To those I offended by posting, sorry I asked, I did look through the first few pages, and didn't see anything, but how many threads are going to come up if I use the terms "Budget PA"? A lot, many of which will get me nowhere. I figured I'd just ask.

 

I want to get my band out playing as soon as possible. Our amps will cover a lot, but it's nice to give a little boost, esp. the kick. We will put on a high energy show, all the PA needs to do is get the music out to the crowd. We will have to make up for the cheap PA with stage energy, tightness of band, and quality music that the crowd can get into. If we can't do that with a cheap PA, we are doing something wrong.

 

I'm looking for an inexpensive but reasonable PA. I will save what is necessary, but I don't want to wait 6 months to come up with the money, when I could get a reasonable PA in a month, and get my band out playing in a month.

 

Emprov's suggestion of the Peavey mixer is a good one, because that could help in the recording department, too. A couple questions: Are those Yorkville cabs powered, and where can I get them? I think I'd have to get a reverb unit for the Peavey, too.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by phunkyhick To those I offended by posting, sorry I asked, I did look through the first few pages, and didn't see anything, but how many threads are going to come up if I use the terms "Budget PA"? A lot, many of which will get me nowhere. I figured I'd just ask. I want to get my band out playing as soon as possible. Our amps will cover a lot, but it's nice to give a little boost, esp. the kick. We will put on a high energy show, all the PA needs to do is get the music out to the crowd. We will have to make up for the cheap PA with stage energy, tightness of band, and quality music that the crowd can get into. If we can't do that with a cheap PA, we are doing something wrong. I'm looking for an inexpensive but reasonable PA. I will save what is necessary, but I don't want to wait 6 months to come up with the money, when I could get a reasonable PA in a month, and get my band out playing in a month. Emprov's suggestion of the Peavey mixer is a good one, because that could help in the recording department, too. A couple questions: Are those Yorkville cabs powered, and where can I get them? I think I'd have to get a reverb unit for the Peavey, too.

The Peavey RQ was the model I was thinking of when I listed $450 for mixer. And Dan at Audioeast handles Yorkie stuff. BTW,just steer clear of the budget 2x15 fullrange cabs. They are't even a decent other option to subs. Sure,you can buy a decent cheap PA for $2k or so(w/o much for monitors)but we can only go by what you say you need when you come here initially. That's all we can base our recommendations on. It happens all the time. No offense,but if you would lay out what you really are looking for,it would save a lot of confusion.

[phunkyhick]

Originally posted by tlbonehead The Peavey RQ was the model I was thinking of when I listed $450 for mixer. And Dan at Audioeast handles Yorkie stuff. BTW,just steer clear of the budget 2x15 fullrange cabs. They are't even a decent other option to subs. Sure,you can buy a decent cheap PA for $2k or so(w/o much for monitors)but we can only go by what you say you need when you come here initially. That's all we can base our recommendations on. It happens all the time. No offense,but if you would lay out what you really are looking for,it would save a lot of confusion.

 

Sorry. I wasn't directing it toward you. I'd like to do it for $2K, and I know I can get the bare essentials for that. An expandable system would be good. A decent mixer and power amp is worth it, because we can use that to record as well, and also expand our system. If I can get a system with decent expandability for $2000, I'll go for it. We need the PA so that a crowd of drunk people can have a good time for now. Monitors we can cheap on, so long as we can hear everyone, they don't have to sound particularly good.

 

If Peavey sounds better than Carvin, I'll put money towards it. I have no idea about wattage, and efficiency,etc. The cabs will need to act as fullrange for now. Our amps will do most of the work, and the PA will be mostly for vocals, but we'll need to run a little of everyone through the PA.

 

So Peavey 16-channel mixer, we'll need a reverb unit for lead vox, a poweramp, speakers and monitors. Can I do this for $2000 or less? Like I said, small gigs, mostly vocals in the monitors, everything else, just a little fill, and a little beef to the kick.

[fossil]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick I'm looking for an inexpensive but reasonable PA. I will save what is necessary, but I don't want to wait 6 months to come up with the money, when I could get a reasonable PA in a month, and get my band out playing in a month.

 

 

Look locally for USED equipment.

[flanc]

If you are just looking for a "speaker on a stick" system for now. Why mic the drums? or even connect the Bass to the FOH. Get a couple of those Sonic speakers that folks are always referencing (seems like a Yamaha Club with better cabinet). Half an amp for the tops, the other half for monitors.

 

Should be able to get a pair of Speakers and a pair of Monitors for about $1K. The amp and the mixer will be $900. Leaves you $100 for a cheap used reverb unit.

[dboomer]

Originally posted by phunkyhick

Monitors we can cheap on, so long as we can hear everyone, they don't have to sound particularly good.

 

Did you stop to think that you might not be able to hear everyone on cheap monitors. Here's the deal ... cheap stuff will work better under ideal conditions (big rooms with tall ceilings or a 30' procenium over the top of the band) and be nearly impossible to live with in small clubs. Cheap monitors and cheap mics equal quick feedback.

 

Like I said, small gigs, mostly vocals in the monitors, everything else, just a little fill, and a little beef to the kick.

"just a little kick" shoots your requirements up times 10!

 

Your problem is very common ... where do we get the money. I'm not picking on you but why not sell some of that expensive bass gear you list in your signature and buy a better PA. Samick makes some nice basses for $200 and maybe a 50 watt bass amp with a 10" speaker would have them rockin? No? Then why do you think it will be any different with a cheap PA? You can't just add a little kick .... that requires some BIG horsepower. There's just no way around it ... sorry ... or substantially drop your requirements.

[nin4269]

well if you just want the kick to sound like a spoon on a cereal box, then you probably wouldn't beed too much power. but for discernable kick that requires good bass response, and bass frequencies require more power for the SPLs you need. So that's the reason there's such a jump in the requirements if drums is a requirement.

 

You can certianally get a PA that will support vocals (and disperse a little guitar on top of what your cabs are doing) with a $2000 budget. The guys here mostly require the "live show thump" that rattles your chest.

[phunkyhick]

Originally posted by dboomer Originally posted by phunkyhick Did you stop to think that you might not be able to hear everyone on cheap monitors. Here's the deal ... cheap stuff will work better under ideal conditions (big rooms with tall ceilings or a 30' procenium over the top of the band) and be nearly impossible to live with in small clubs. Cheap monitors and cheap mics equal quick feedback. Your problem is very common ... where do we get the money. I'm not picking on you but why not sell some of that expensive bass gear you list in your signature and buy a better PA. Samick makes some nice basses for $200 and maybe a 50 watt bass amp with a 10" speaker would have them rockin? No? Then why do you think it will be any different with a cheap PA? You can't just add a little kick .... that requires some BIG horsepower. There's just no way around it ... sorry ... or substantially drop your requirements.   My Mesa Boogie cost me $500. I'm having to spend another couple hundred to fix it, since its broke. I have an Avatar cab, $250. My Bass rig sounds excellent (while it works), for $750. I am relying on our gear to do most of the volume, not the PA. But I happen to know from experience that a kick will sound decent w/o a sub, and that you can run a little of the entire band through the PA.   The thump in the chest would be nice, but mostly I just want to be able to get a little of the bass from the kick to the back of the house. I'll worry about the thump later. It does make a difference, I've played places with HUGE subs on the front of the stage. It is not absolutely necessary, though.

[tlbonehead]

I guess if you just want a little of the 5k "click" of the kick to reach the back of the club,you'll be fine. But it won't be a kick drum sound reaching anywhere. But you seem to know what you need so,good luck.

[dboomer]

 

Originally posted by phunkyhick The thump in the chest would be nice, but mostly I just want to be able to get a little of the bass from the kick to the back of the house.

 

 

What the hell do you think it takes to get the 'bass' from a kick vs the 'thump' from the kick?

 

You can keep asking and asking, over and over, but the answer is still the same