Members wheresgrant3 Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 I play in a cover band and we own our own PA. Recently we've been having problems with our sound. Our gigs on both Friday and Saturday night we ran really good sound checks and for the very first time I heard my keys in the mix (someone else was playing my boards). They keys sounded fine until, I hit some notes with a lot of bass. Big pads, loud explosions... even the lower notes on a clav patch were causing the signal to distort and break up. The mains are JBL's (not sure what model) and the subs are EV Eliminators. To power this we run a Crown CE2000, and another amp (I'm not sure of) plus a crossover. Also we run 4 monitor wedges off another power source. This all runs into a 24 channel Mackie mixer. We mic everything including toms and snare into the mix and keep our stage volume relatively low. Along with the speakers clipping with low bass notes we're told that our sionger can barely be heard in the mix... even when he is maxed on the board. I know the EV Eliminators basically suck for stage applications. Any suggestions on affordable subs to replace them with? Is the problem with the distortion that we are not running enough power out to mains? I have another CE 2000 we can use to power the subs just by themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Are you sure you weren't overloading the mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted August 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Overloading how? In terms of power or inputs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 Overloading how? In terms of power or inputs? Feeding it too hot a signal from the keyboard and overloading its inputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 IThey keys sounded fine until, I hit some notes with a lot of bass. Big pads, loud explosions... even the lower notes on a clav patch were causing the signal to distort and break up. Well, you've just exceeded the limits of the system. Could be inputs, internal electronics, signal level mismatch, not enough power or not enough speaker ... or all of the above. You need a bigger system or the band needs to turn down. You need to add enough to satisfy your problem or you'll just need to do it again ... it's that simple... sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted August 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by dboomer Well, you've just exceeded the limits of the system. Could be inputs, internal electronics, signal level mismatch, not enough power or not enough speaker ... or all of the above. You need a bigger system or the band needs to turn down. You need to add enough to satisfy your problem or you'll just need to do it again ... it's that simple... sorry I run a Roland XP30 and a Triton LE into a little 10 channel mixer and then run the signal stereo out to the PA. I run ST outs to the PA and CR outs to a Keyboard amp When I set up my keys I send the left and right signals of my Triton into channel 7 & 8, and the left and right of my Roland into ch 9&10. Yesterday I cut the bass back on the Triton (the synth giving me the most problem) and it cleared up the clipping....but it also took all of the 'juice' out of my patches. The Triton LE does run a very hot signal. Is there any way to attenuate it without affecting the EQ or depth of the signal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 I play in a cover band and we own our own PA. Recently we've been having problems with our sound. Our gigs on both Friday and Saturday night we ran really good sound checks and for the very first time I heard my keys in the mix (someone else was playing my boards). They keys sounded fine until, I hit some notes with a lot of bass. Big pads, loud explosions... even the lower notes on a clav patch were causing the signal to distort and break up. The mains are JBL's (not sure what model) and the subs are EV Eliminators. To power this we run a Crown CE2000, and another amp (I'm not sure of) plus a crossover. Also we run 4 monitor wedges off another power source. This all runs into a 24 channel Mackie mixer. We mic everything including toms and snare into the mix and keep our stage volume relatively low. Along with the speakers clipping with low bass notes we're told that our sionger can barely be heard in the mix... even when he is maxed on the board. I know the EV Eliminators basically suck for stage applications. Any suggestions on affordable subs to replace them with? Is the problem with the distortion that we are not running enough power out to mains? I have another CE 2000 we can use to power the subs just by themselves. OK,when you say that you know the E-V subs suck,what makes you say that? They are fine subs for their target area. Maybe you just expect way too much out of a single 18" front-load cab. A lot of your stuff is hard to imagine w/o seeing or being there in person. I can't imagine running a mixer channel(especially on a mic) "wide open. Is it really wide open,as in,the fader is all the way to the top and the gain/trim pot wide open? That shouldn't be. Does your mixer have peak lights on each channel? Do you pay attention to them and set your gains correctly? How much stuff do you have between the mixer and the power amps? Have you checked the gains on each piece? Do you run the gains on the power amps wide open? When you were hearing this bad distortion,were the peak lights on the power amps coming on? Are there any limiters on the power amps,and are they engaged? What about low cut/high pass filters also? Have you made sure to narrow it down so that you know whether it is coming just through the mains,just through the monitors,or both? Could there be an effects unit somewhere that is getting too much signal? They can make hideous sounds when overdriven. Really,from the way you describe it,it doesn't sound like an amp that is clipping,unless you are describing it weird and/or you are really hammering things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Is it a problem in the keyboard amp or just the house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted August 2, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead OK,when you say that you know the E-V subs suck,what makes you say that? They are fine subs for their target area. Maybe you just expect way too much out of a single 18" front-load cab. The target area/application for EV Eliminators seems to be DJ services. I owned a pair of Eliminators in another band and we promptly replaced them w/ a pair of T-18's. The Eliminators (with their {censored}ty built in cross over) have their speakers loaded in on their side and angled up. They just don't throw sound into an audience like the T-18's did. Great for short sopratic singles (like a dance beat) but poor on continous notes. Unless you're a wedding band or a one man midi show the Eliminators just don't have the juice to handle rooms built for more than 100 people. We recognize this and plan to replace them. The T-18's did a much better job of throwing sound into an audience. Unfortunately I can't find a pair used. So we're open to suggestions. I'll check into all of the other things you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted August 2, 2004 Members Share Posted August 2, 2004 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 The target area/application for EV Eliminators seems to be DJ services. I owned a pair of Eliminators in another band and we promptly replaced them w/ a pair of T-18's. The Eliminators (with their {censored}ty built in cross over) have their speakers loaded in on their side and angled up. They just don't throw sound into an audience like the T-18's did. Great for short sopratic singles (like a dance beat) but poor on continous notes. Unless you're a wedding band or a one man midi show the Eliminators just don't have the juice to handle rooms built for more than 100 people.We recognize this and plan to replace them. The T-18's did a much better job of throwing sound into an audience. Unfortunately I can't find a pair used. So we're open to suggestions.I'll check into all of the other things you mentioned. Well yes,obviously there will be quite a bit of difference between the two. The Elim is just some sort of band-pass box,made mainly for those who need a little bass in a very compact enclosure. The T18 has an actual horn loaded port so they can move a lot more air. The Sonic DJX1800 is a very similar cab to the old style T-18's and they work pretty well. If you find a good aggressive Sonic dealer,you should be able to get a pair for around $800,or a little less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted August 3, 2004 Members Share Posted August 3, 2004 I think it is all because you mismatched impedence on your Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted August 3, 2004 Members Share Posted August 3, 2004 I am aware of another situation that is similiar to this. Where the keyboard signalisjust "too hot". Thids keyboardist really likes a lot of what I will call "overdrive".... and anytime that his signal is hot enough that he "likes" the sound of it, he is over driving the inputs of the channel on the board, and cliping the system. It is easy to "trim him back", and stop the clipping, but then he is not happy with the sound. I wish he didn't like that sound. I would like to think that there is a way to solve this problem with proper gain sturcture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted August 3, 2004 Members Share Posted August 3, 2004 Originally posted by wheresgrant3 When I set up my keys I send the left and right signals of my Triton into channel 7 & 8, and the left and right of my Roland into ch 9&10. My money's on input overload. Notice that channels 7 - 10 don't have a "gain" control or overload LED. They expect a line level signal (can't make out from the photo what the 0dB reference is ...), and your boards are probably sending too hot a signal into those inputs. Try turning down the outputs of your boards and turning up the inputs of that Yammy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 3, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 Originally posted by Rbts I am aware of another situation that is similiar to this. Where the keyboard signalisjust "too hot". Thids keyboardist really likes a lot of what I will call "overdrive".... and anytime that his signal is hot enough that he "likes" the sound of it, he is over driving the inputs of the channel on the board, and cliping the system. It is easy to "trim him back", and stop the clipping, but then he is not happy with the sound. I wish he didn't like that sound. I would like to think that there is a way to solve this problem with proper gain sturcture. He can run the signal through his own preamp and overdrive that, and then run that to the board where it can be set for correct level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted August 3, 2004 Members Share Posted August 3, 2004 quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Rbts I am aware of another situation that is similiar to this. Where the keyboard signalisjust "too hot". Thids keyboardist really likes a lot of what I will call "overdrive".... and anytime that his signal is hot enough that he "likes" the sound of it, he is over driving the inputs of the channel on the board, and cliping the system. It is easy to "trim him back", and stop the clipping, but then he is not happy with the sound. I wish he didn't like that sound. I would like to think that there is a way to solve this problem with proper gain sturcture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He can run the signal through his own preamp and overdrive that, and then run that to the board where it can be set for correct level. __________________So he overdrives the input to his own preamp, and this overdriven sound is then picked up and sent via a direct line to the main board, or it is sent to his stage amp, which in turn is then mic'ed and again the captured overdriven signal is sent to the main board.?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 3, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 Originally posted by Rbts quote:So he overdrives the input to his own preamp, and this overdriven sound is then picked up and sent via a direct line to the main board, or it is sent to his stage amp, which in turn is then mic'ed and again the captured overdriven signal is sent to the main board.?? The former. His preamp can then send to both the board and to his stage monitor. The idea is to create the sound he desires at a signal level that can be handled by the mixer. He doesn't even have to use a preamp...a stompbox overdrive pedal or similar could be just as effective, but he'd need to use a DI to convert the output to a lo-Z for the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted August 3, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 3, 2004 Maybe that's my problem.... the mixer isn't sending a lo-Z signal to the main mixing board? Should I be using a DI instead (I am clueless when it comes to these things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted August 4, 2004 Members Share Posted August 4, 2004 Craig,thanks for your thoughts on this. He doesn't actually have a separate pre amp... he uses a peavey 6 channel powered mixer (a mixer box kind of thing). Of course this powered mixer has in effect a "pre amp"... which is the mixer section, as well as the power staqge (or whatever you call it that is the amp part. IF I am understanding you... we want to try to overdrive the input of the channel that he is running into? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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