Members agedhorse Posted November 18, 2005 Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv Perhaps it's because I find it such an interesting topic that it seems there's not much about it in the Code, eh? All the essential information is there, but spread out in various articles (520 is not the only one that applies). Also, all the regular stuff applies except as modified by the requirements for portable cabling and the various special uses articles. There are even wire tables specifically for portable cordage, also modified by the same derating factors that apply to installed wiring, such as multiple wires in a jacket, temperature, OCP etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 18, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Originally posted by agedhorse All the essential information is there, but spread out in various articles (520 is not the only one that applies). Also, all the regular stuff applies except as modified by the requirements for portable cabling and the various special uses articles. There are even wire tables specifically for portable cordage, also modified by the same derating factors that apply to installed wiring, such as multiple wires in a jacket, temperature, OCP etc. Would be kinda nice if there was a Handbook just for this stuff. Would save time for those who don't know the Code by heart. A section just on all the wrong ways to hook up and ground a gennie would be worth the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 18, 2005 Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 I see an opportunity for a writer with electrical knowledge as it pertains to audio/lighting/video... Of course, it was have to be prefaced by saying this is information for licensed (bonded?) electricians and informative for non-electrical professionals to understand the proper method though legally they cannot wire or operate such a system beyond that which is appropriate for a lay person.I said all that because it would be great, as a non-licensed individual, to know specifically what's involved in tie-ins and jennie hookups. But it won't make you legally able to provide those services. I'd still like to see such a book marketed as a reference to audio/lighting/video pros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 18, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Originally posted by fantasticsound I see an opportunity for a writer with electrical knowledge as it pertains to audio/lighting/video... I love it when people 'get' my hints!Dibs on the autographed 1st Edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 18, 2005 Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 Dibs on second! Only I want mine to feature a burn splatter of carbon with the autograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ear Abuser Posted November 18, 2005 Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 Would be kinda nice if there was a Handbook just for this stuff A lot of the equipment and techniques used in entertainment power distribution have their roots in the movie production business, just like most of the basic audio stuff. (There's that AudioCyclopedia again, Agedhorse!) I wonder if there is a book covering electrical distribution written for movie production people that us sound guys just haven't found yet? The NEC code book by itself is a hard read- I suggest anyone who is interested in learning more about power get a copy of the NEC Code Handbook- a companion book that explains each of the sections of the code in much nore practical terms. The NEC Code and Handbook are both available from the NFPA (Nation Fire Protection Association) who, once you buy something from them, will send you a friggin catalog about once a month- which probably explains why their books cost so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 18, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Originally posted by Ear Abuser A lot of the equipment and techniques used in entertainment power distribution have their roots in the movie production business, just like most of the basic audio stuff. (There's that AudioCyclopedia again, Agedhorse!) I wonder if there is a book covering electrical distribution written for movie production people that us sound guys just haven't found yet? The NEC code book by itself is a hard read- I suggest anyone who is interested in learning more about power get a copy of the NEC Code Handbook- a companion book that explains each of the sections of the code in much nore practical terms. The NEC Code and Handbook are both available from the NFPA (Nation Fire Protection Association) who, once you buy something from them, will send you a friggin catalog about once a month- which probably explains why their books cost so much Excellent info. The Code is a real snoozer unless you enjoy discussing interpretations. Also McGraw Hill publishes their own version of the Handbook that some find more palatable than NFPA's. IMO it's okay but glosses too many articles, and confuses some even more than the Code itself.Wanna start an argument? Get four inspectors in a room and ask the proper method of grounding for a single system handling two buildings with sub-panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 18, 2005 Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 Yes, the handbook is far superior entertainmet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smitty0069 Posted November 18, 2005 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2005 Thanks for the replies guys.I've picked up an abundance of knowledge on this forum just reading thru the threads over the last few years & I've always wandered where & how all of your backgrounds translated or transfered to the audio field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 My first real electrical lesson:In '79 I started buying video games and started a route. Asteroids was my first game. In '80 I built a video arcade. I rented a cheap commercial mainstreet store... that had about 6 outlets total... and about 400 linear feet of NASTY '50''s vintage overhead florescent lighting. The building needed a major electrical service overhaul... I wanted to spend my money on video games and restaurant supplies, not electrical contractor work. Of-course, being a commercial building open to the public... the electrical work had to be up to snuff. I basically gutted the building and started over (with the landlord's permission... actually with the landlord's blessing... since it needed "it" bad). I had an electrical contractor buddy who over-saw the electrical portion of the project and signed off on the work when it was right. I bought a copy of the NEC and had at it. Within a month the electrical work was done, the walls, floor, ceiling, kitchen, bathrooms, dining area, and arcade was done and I was open for business.And... I think I still hold the world records on maybe 2 or 3 video games. A car load of us world records holders from the arcade even made a road trip to Twin Galaxies in Ottumwa, Iowa in like '82 for a show and tell glory moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smitty0069 Posted November 19, 2005 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2005 Originally posted by Audiopile And... I think I still hold the world records on maybe 2 or 3 video games. A car load of us world records holders from the arcade even made a road trip to Twin Galaxies in Ottumwa, Iowa in like '82 for a show and tell glory moment. I grew up in Ottumwa Iowa.I remember Twin Galaxies & used to go in there on occasion,but was never really into the video games on any serious level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Originally posted by smitty0069 I grew up in Ottumwa Iowa.I remember Twin Galaxies & used to go in there on occasion,but was never really into the video games on any serious level. Maybe a little off-topic: It's been a few years since I made that trip, Liz and I think I made the trip in about March of 1983... but I still remember a few things: 1) Twin Galaxies was in a big ole brick building downtown with a huge blue and white sign on the front of the building. 2) There was some sort of parade on main street that we were in... and it snowed off-and-on during the parade. I think I met the Iowa Governor. I was pretty sleep deprived during this part of the trip... and everything was all kind-of foggy, including the weather. 3) I think it was between the two seasons in Montana... you know: Somewhere between "winter season" and "road repair season". We were driving my brother's '72 LTD on a state highway somewhere in the middle of Montana when the state highway turned from pavement to a gravel road, and then deteriorated to basically a mud cow path (with cows standing in it)... and then the mud cow path deteriorated to a succession of mud holes and 4X4 ruts... and then the LTD stopped going forward... cause it was sunk to the axles in one of the bigger mud holes... and then it started to snow. Fortunately, near-by the mud wallow was a state dozer, with the key in it, hand written operating instructions, and a tow cable, apparently to assist travelers on that stretch of that Montana state highway. We drug the LTD through the worst of the mud holes via the dozer... and then down the road we went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted November 20, 2005 Members Share Posted November 20, 2005 Yes, COBOL, and like 500 punch cards with a rubber band around them, in a shoe box carried over to the 'lab" at midnight... the "lab" being the only building on the campus that i guess was big enough to actually house the 'computer" in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prog Posted November 20, 2005 Members Share Posted November 20, 2005 I have experience and education. I don't disclose it on forums because I don't like getting in pissing contests.If people don't want to listen to me, they don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Originally posted by Rbts Yes, COBOL, and like 500 punch cards with a rubber band around them, in a shoe box carried over to the 'lab" at midnight... the "lab" being the only building on the campus that i guess was big enough to actually house the 'computer" in? That seems about right... 500 punch-cards (Hollerith cards) per shoebox. I saved one of my programs for awhile, which was one of the big boxes full of cards... and a few more... like maybe 1500 cards or so. One Christmas Eve I built a number of card houses with my saved punchcards... I seem to remember I topped out at about 20 some-odd stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 20, 2005 Members Share Posted November 20, 2005 Originally posted by Rbts Yes, COBOL, and like 500 punch cards with a rubber band around them, in a shoe box carried over to the 'lab" at midnight... the "lab" being the only building on the campus that i guess was big enough to actually house the 'computer" in? Just don't drop the shoebox:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DDAY Posted November 21, 2005 Members Share Posted November 21, 2005 I am a certified electrition, went to trade school and am employed as a 3rd year apprentice. Built my own distribution system for MY Pa system. I don't like to do work for bands and other sound men because as we all know it's always the Electritions fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 21, 2005 Members Share Posted November 21, 2005 Originally posted by DDAY I am a certified electrition, went to trade school and am employed as a 3rd year apprentice. Built my own distribution system for MY Pa system. I don't like to do work for bands and other sound men because as we all know it's always the Electritions fault. Since when?!? When it is the electrician's fault, it's pretty easy to identify.If you tie in and find dirty power, I assume you say something to the production crew, right??Most of the guys I work with have great reps with the sound operators.. because they do their job and do it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted November 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2005 Originally posted by agedhorse Just don't drop the shoebox:eek: That's what the sequence numbers in columns 73-80 are for. And the long, diagonal pencil mark across the tops of the cards, if you don't have access to a card sorter. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 21, 2005 Members Share Posted November 21, 2005 Back when I went to the University of Iowa, my freshman year of college, the computer science building had been built (years before) to resemble a punchcard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 21, 2005 Members Share Posted November 21, 2005 Originally posted by MrKnobs That's what the sequence numbers in columns 73-80 are for. And the long, diagonal pencil mark across the tops of the cards, if you don't have access to a card sorter. Terry D. Very true! Don't forget to sequency by 10's so you can add in-sequenced cards for your changes!All my decks had diagonal black marker lines on the tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 21, 2005 Members Share Posted November 21, 2005 Originally posted by fantasticsound Since when?!? When it is the electrician's fault, it's pretty easy to identify. If you tie in and find dirty power, I assume you say something to the production crew, right?? Not always.I was blamed for dirty power by a local sound company (a rather loud-mouthed ignoramus) and I bet him $100 in front of his crew and the headliner that I could prove the problem was definately NOT the power source but something in the distro. If I was wrong, I would pay the gut $100 and either way, we would all have pizza for dinner.The idiot bit the bait, and based on measurements I made (it's science here, not voodo) I was able to determine the type of fault and how to go about searching for it.Turned out his distro had neutral and ground bonded together in one of the enclosures, causing neutral voltage drop to appear on the ground. Since it was a single phase distro being used on a 3 phase source (ph-C dropped) the neurtal currents were almost the same as the highest phase current. (One good reason to use a 3 phase distro on 3 phase sources). The guy swore that was not the cause of the problem, and that it was correctly grounded. I pulled out the NEC and article 250 is pretty darned clear about the point of ground being the service point, not at any sub-panel. Removing the bond also removed the shared 15 amp ground current and the associated voltage drop. The guy started protesting and saying he wasn't going to pay etc, but the BAND pressured him into it for me calling him some pretty unfriendly names and suggested ordering some "crow" pizza especially for him. They even made fun of him DURING the show!!! A good time washad by everyone at his expense. I don't think he's doing the sound company thing anymore, certainly not in my venue.Moral of the story... Don't bet the farm unless you really know you are right. Don't let your ego get in the way of your stupidity. Hmmm... anyone know somebody like that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DDAY Posted November 22, 2005 Members Share Posted November 22, 2005 I have been blamed for stuff I was never even a part of! for instance I installed a single phase 240/110volt system in a local club 200 amp which is what the owner wanted and had in the contract. The club could hold 1,000 people so it was a big place. Every thing was great until the added an extreme amount of pa gear and lights. On top of the kitchen and the bar and the general lighting the service had to support a 10,000k sound system, 100 par 56 300 watt cans, 25 strobes, and lots more specitally lights and all the parking lot lights. Needless to say first opening night power went down, popped main breaker. None of all the extra stuuf was made known to the company I work for we were not told of all the lights which were strung together with orange extention chords by the way and they only requested 4 dual recepticals for the sound system. among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 22, 2005 Members Share Posted November 22, 2005 What about permits and drawings? I would think the basic calcs would show that 200A/1ph would be inadequate per the NEC reqts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted November 22, 2005 Members Share Posted November 22, 2005 Points taken.In the words of a good friend (and former bandmate), "Freaks!! They're everywhere!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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