Members Fireproof Posted January 18, 2006 Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 Okay, I've done a bunch of searches, looked through the Newbie Guide sticky, etc, but most of the things I've found assume the reader knows a lot more than I do. I've read all about PA system components (powered mixers, non-powered mixers with powered speakers, etc, etc.), and I know that Behringer is crap, and you need to spend some decent money to get decent sound/quality, etc. BUT - I'm still confused on exactly what I need for my needs. Here's my situation: I jam with a few guys and this summer we want to be able to play at pool parties (outside) and house parties (inside homes with large living areas). Right now, the guitarists and bass players have their own amps and we set the volume to match the live drummer. My question: What is the bare minimum I need to address vocals, assuming only 2-3 people will be singing? I'm assuming a basic powered mixer and some speakers would be it (and of course, mics). Is that right? If so, what are minimum features I'd want on a mixer - can I get by with just a little 4-channel one? And I don't have a clue as to the power I need...but just need to be able to keep up with live drums. I was thinking of starting with a used Peavey on eBay, but don't know what wattage to look for. And if I'm way off-base here, please forgive my ignorance. Alas, I'm just a guitarist, not a sound man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 18, 2006 Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 Just for vocals where you just need to match volume with an unamplified drummer, a powered mixer, speakers on sticks and a couple of monitors should be fine. There are lots of choices, but as long as you stay away from their cheapest stuff, you can't go too far wrong with Yamaha, Peavey or Carvin. Make sure whatever mixer you get provides power to monitors and that the speakers are relatively efficient, 97 dB or more. Something like http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630193/ should work well. Add a monitor or two and you're good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 18, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 Thanks man. That helps a lot. I just wanted to validate my thinking and make sure I'm on the right path! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted January 18, 2006 Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 I'll echo GCDEF's comment - you should get some good use out of a used powered mixer and 3 - 4 of the same model of pole-mountable monitors (or 2 sets of 2 slightly different models - 2 for your "main" speakers and 2 for your monitors. You'll also need 3 - 4 25' speaker cables to plug the speakers into your powered mixer, two speaker stands (for your mains), 2 - 3 mic stands and 2 - 3 decent mics and you're good to go. Buying used, you should be able to get all of this for a little over ~$1,000 (or maybe slightly less if you get lucky). You'll want a powered mixer that has two internal amplifiers (i.e. "300W x2") and I would recommend you look for powered mixers than can deliver those 300W @ 4ohms (vs. 300W @ 2 ohms, which ain't much power). 400W @4ohms per amplifier is even better, as each of your speakers will then see ~$200 watts of power. As for brands, GCDEF has given you some ones to search out. There seem to be a ton of Peavey powered mixers out there in the used market and they are historically pretty reliable. Speaker-wise, GCDEF's note on efficiency is something of which you should take heed. The efficiency rating of passive (non-powered) speakers is a very important stat - basically telling you how much of the power that's going into the speaker is being transferred into volume (db's) that you can actually hear. If a speaker has a low efficiency rating, it's not going to sound nearly as good or clear at the same power/volume than an efficient speaker. I'm a fan of Sonic speakers for a very reasonably priced opiton (~$150 each used or less sometimes), but others are servicable (go search again young man!) One other note - by buying used, you are able to resell later if you scale up for less loss financially - basically you've already passed the point of depreciation that a lot of this gear has when bought new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 18, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 Awesome! Thanks for the specific advice - it's really appreciated!! Helps tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 18, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted January 18, 2006 Whenever possible, try to buy the floor-wedge version of speaker cabinets...check first, but most will have a pole-mount socket. If so, you can use them for either a FOH speaker on a stand, or as a floor monitor if you encounter more equipment later. This is one more way to ensure your rig is both versatile today, and useful as you upgrade. The Yamaha Clubs are a good speaker for this. For more money, JBL MP412's are very good. I can also recommend the Peavey XR600 and XR696 powered mixers. Almost bulletproof, they're a safe used buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 18, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 Thanks for the advice - sounds good! Originally posted by Craigv I can also recommend the Peavey XR600 and XR696 powered mixers. Almost bulletproof, they're a safe used buy. That's good to hear - I've been eyeing some auctions on eBay that look pretty reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted January 18, 2006 Members Share Posted January 18, 2006 If you are planning to run more than 2 speakers from your powered mixer (i.e. 2 mains and 1-2 monitors), make sure when looking at the XR600 series mixers that they are the versions that have TWO internal amps! Or You'll need to buy another power amp for monitors.... The Peavey XR696F is an excellent powered mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TexasJim Posted January 19, 2006 Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 Alas, I'm just a guitarist, not a soundman! Singing Dave: We all started there! Just remember that if your band has a total of $4000.00 in guitars, basses, amps, pedals, and drum gear, then you will probably need almost that much in P.A. gear. My band has been using a powered mixer for about five years, with two 15" main cabs, and three 12" monitor cabs, stands, cables, simple lights, all the cables, etc., and we have about $ 4000.00 in P.A. GEAR. I never thought I would need more than about $ 1000.00 in P.A. stuff. Reality check! Your band is only as good as it SOUNDS to the audience. My mixer is a Mackie 808S, which has been great. The higher-end Peavey powered mixers are good bang-for-the-buck. Don't go low-end, low-power, or you will end up regretting it. In the immortal words of one of our Forumites: Buy Once, Cry once. Good Luck, Texas Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 "Buy once, cry once." I love it. SOUND advice (pun intended). Thanks for the help. I am leaning towards more than 2x200. I just think I'll wish I had spent a bit more and got something bigger. The Mackie would be awesome. Would an 808S for under $600 be a good deal? How would that compare to a Yamaha EMX512SC for $525? I'm not sure of all the trade-offs. But 2x200 seems too low-powered, and 2x600 seems way more than I really need. I'm wondering if 2x300 would suit me, or if I should go for a 2x500 or 2x600 if I can afford it. Ugh. If I did that, I'd have to wait an extra month before I could get speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted January 19, 2006 Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 I owned a Mackie 808m for a little while and its alright, but I sold it last year for $600 or so, threw in another $100, and bought a Yorkville M1610, which gave us much more headroom (and clearer vocals etc.) Next step is a full powered speaker system.....thus proving what everyone here has told me for a while - you are limited with powered mixers should you ever expand! Fireproof, you are on the right track not to skimp on power with this purchse. I sure a Mackie 808m or 808s (m model = mono, s model - stereo, the stereo is not that necessary for live applications, but handy I guess) would serve you well. A used one for ~$500-$550 would be an OK deal. Look at your power this way. Despite the promoted power on the Mackie of 600W X 2, the "real" power of that mixer in your application is really about 350W X 2 (@ 4ohms). The reason for this is the 600W they list is at 2 ohms, which is not the load your amp will be seeing with two 8 ohm speakers per amp. Your amp will actually be seeing 4 ohms (2 speakers each rated at 8 ohms into one amp = 4 ohm load) Again, the Mackie amp 1 (or 2) delivers about 350 W @ 4ohms. You will be dividing that power between those two speakers, so each speaker will be seeing about 175 watts of power. That's not that much. Thus the reason you want to get a powered mixer with as much power as you can (and the reason why powered mixers are so limited!) The Peavey XR696F does actually deliver about 500W per amp @ 4ohms - their rating system is a bit less skewed marketing wise. So it has more power than the Mackie. BUT....on the down side, I don't believe the Peavey XR696F allows you to set individual channel trim/gain before adjusting the actual level of each channel. This is a very handy feature for getting best gain structure for each input. This is something to look at as well. As a comparison, my Yorkville M1610 delivers about 650 W per amp @ 4 ohms, and has a very easy gain structure format w/ a trim pot on each channel. Anyway...I know very little and am playing ball in the rookie (or little) leagues compared to the other folks here. Do a search on the whole ohms thing and maybe it will make more sense. Bottom line, once you get into powered mixers that cost $700 + or so, you might be better served getting a decent used passive mixer and separate power amps or even powered speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 All good stuff - thanks again! I hear ya on the ohms issue. If I were looking to start gigging a lot with a 'real band', I'd definitely go for it and get a real good setup. But as it is, I'm married with small kids, and this is just a hobby of mine. But instead of just jamming with some friends ocassionally, we'd like to be able to play for some parties every now and then. So that's why I'm being a little more cautious with my money and don't want to buy WAY more than I really need. (I still have private school and college to pay for, LOL.) I've also been eyeing the Yamaha EMX312SC lately. Seems like lots of features and has 2 x 300W into 4 ohms. Is that enough power for a small backyard party for 30 people or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 19, 2006 Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by Fireproof I've also been eyeing the Yamaha EMX312SC lately. Seems like lots of features and has 2 x 300W into 4 ohms. Is that enough power for a small backyard party for 30 people or so? Should be, but remember speakers are very important in how much actual volume you get. With relatively efficient speakers you'll be fine. With cheap Nadys or Kustoms, probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireproof Posted January 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF Should be, but remember speakers are very important in how much actual volume you get. With relatively efficient speakers you'll be fine. With cheap Nadys or Kustoms, probably not. Good point! I should've pointed out that I will be choosing very good / efficient speakers - no crap jobs. I just wanted to make sure that, assuming great speakers, the 2x300 would be good. This'll be fun! Thanks for the quick response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aerorockjax Posted February 22, 2006 Members Share Posted February 22, 2006 excellent thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 22, 2006 Members Share Posted February 22, 2006 the 300 watt - 4 ohm power rating of the mixer/amp means that it will deliver 150 watts into each 8 ohm speaker. This may be enough, especially for your application. Just want to be sure you are not unintentionally mis-led. Keep it simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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