Members julius_the_cat Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Locate the crossover in the mixer rack or in the amp rack? Currently it's in the amp rack, but used a snake at the last show and ended up with very little setup time. The balance wasn't very good and the crossover was 100 ft away. Sometimes the snake will be used and other times mixing at the stage. thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Crossover should be at FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chadgrieser Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 The crossover can be in either rack. It is possibly better to have in the amp rack, because you only need to sends on a snake to the amp rack, but its personal preferences and how many returns you have in ur snake, and ease of access. About the system not being balanced, that is something you'll need to take some time and adjust the settings in the crossover to get it balanced. Set the system up out doors or in a garage or somewhere empty where you can take some time to just dial in the crossover and get the system to sound pretty good. Thats what I did with my rig, and once the crossover was set, I very rarely need to adjust it. And always remember that every venue you play in will sound different, so an EQ will definetly be a good thing to use to tailor the sound of the FOH to make it sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by The Real MC Crossover should be at FOH. For those who believe they're better served by the crossover (s) being at FOH, I now stock 12 ch. return snakes: 16 x 12, 24 x 12, and 32 x 12. Oh... and this came about a while back, when I was modifying a snake for a customer... If memory serves me correctly, I think I converted a 16 x 8 snake into a 12 x 12... 12 input sends and 12 returns. I think the customer really only needed like 10 inputs, but he needed all 12 returns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 I like the reliability and ease of wiring to have them in the amp racks. I pretty much do all of my crossover adjustments before the show and then make any changes I need on the mixer. Besides ... my new one remotes via USB so I can keep it in the rack and adjust it from foh anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by dboomer Besides ... my new one remotes via USB so I can keep it in the rack and adjust it from foh anyways. I'm kicking around developing snakes a USB line included. I don't know what's involved... but it seems like a developing trend. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by dboomer I like the reliability and ease of wiring to have them in the amp racks. Well... that, plus I'd suspect that with your previous Meyer processors, there really wasn't any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigmike216 Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 I prefer it in the amp rack too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 I prefer having them in the amp racks for the ease of set-up. Once my system parameters are set for the speakers, I don't (or very rarely) have a need to adjust. Amp racks are not in a convenient location which also helps. It also keeps the hands off by the visiting experts, tgough passwords also do this very effectively though I then need to hear all about the "grief" of not being able to adjust MY SYSTEM LIMITERS to THEIR preference. Nuff said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by dboomer Besides ... my new one remotes via USB so I can keep it in the rack and adjust it from foh anyways. Isn't the maximum calbe run for USB about 16 feet? http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.2002-05-29.5489874677 Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members julius_the_cat Posted March 11, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 thank you gentlemen. Running mono and the snake has 8 returns, so could go either way. Trying to make the setup as simple and low risk (for screwups) as possible, so maybe leave it in the amp rack?? Anyone have a link to general crossover setup technique or any specific recommendations about the following setup: DBX223XL into PLX3402 to a pair of JBL MP412s and a pair of SRX718s. Seems to me it ought to sound better than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Also in the amp rack for 3 way eliminates the possibility of the horns getting hooked up to the mid amp in the case that the signal inputs are not multi-pinned. This can be both expensive and embarrasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 That's why you should check each band from the top down - if highs are going through mid or low cabinets, you'll know it right away without blowing the HF drivers. My experience has taught me that crossover is best placed at FOH because I often tweak the mid/high levels from place to place. I voice the system using a "soundcheck CD". After that I tweak the EQ, which is only necessary in 1 out of 5 venues. Get it to sound good with the crossover first, then tweak the EQ. Makes setup much simpler for me and the sound is more consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chadgrieser Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Everyone has personal preferences with where to put the crossover. For me and what i've done with sound systems, I have found it best to keep it in the amp rack, and not at FOH, as this causes me to use up my returns on FOH, and not have any extra for monitors... for simplicity, and ease of use, its possibly better to keep the crossover in the amp rack and keep it wired up to the amps, and possibly have a panel set up with the inputs and outputs and well labeled to make sure you plug into the proper speaker. If your not sure where you want it, try setting it up both ways and do it each way for a while to see what way you prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Adam Mottley Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 I keep mine in the amp rack. I use a pair of RS-232-XLR adapters and run the control signal up the snake to FOH where it can be adjusted via laptop. Obviously, this technique won't work using an analog crossover. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by Dark Ice Isn't the maximum calbe run for USB about 16 feet?http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.2002-05-29.5489874677 Right - you couldn't do USB in the snake the way you can do low-speed RS-232. However, there are now remote USB boxes available that work over a regular computer network, so maybe putting a Cat5 line in the snake would be useful though probably not very easy. http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/server/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 11, 2006 Members Share Posted March 11, 2006 Originally posted by The Real MC That's why you should check each band from the top down - if highs are going through mid or low cabinets, you'll know it right away without blowing the HF drivers. Accidents and misunderstanding do happen. If it's you and your system, it's not a big deal but when you have an IA show with lost of hands on the call, somebody trying to be helpful may power up a rack accidently or worse forget to power off after the last gig, or bump a power switch with their knee and if you are not able to personally check everything, something might come up inadvertantly. I had a customer who bought a pretty sizable number of replacement diaphrams due to such an accident... in his case somebody unplugged the sends trying to be very careful of the snake, to roll a piano past his return snake after things had been tested, then replugged incorrectly. Totally accidental but still costly. Fortunately the promoter paid the bill since it was obvious that it was his loader's fault and the other hands all saw what happened and he copped to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by Scodiddly there are now remote USB boxes available that work over a regular computer network, so maybe putting a Cat5 line in the snake would be useful though probably not very easy.http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/server/ I've seen these solutions, some as simple as USB>Cat5>USB. I've also seen avtive USB cables (I assume they use a repeater powered by the cables power supply rails to boost the signal rails...) which can extend USBs range. I agree that an ethernet snake would be an excellent idea, not only for extending USB but also for all these fancy new protocols like cobranet and fancy pants remote amplifier monitoring. Maybe even an active snake with a fibre optic channel has merit... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by Dark Ice Isn't the maximum calbe run for USB about 16 feet? http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technotes/document.2002-05-29.5489874677 Steve. Well that's the spec ... but if you add a repeater you can go 100 meters, maybe more. Besides ... who says I'm using wire Actually at this moment I am but I fully expect to go wireless very shortly. You can go about 100 feet via USB wireless today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CloseToTheEdge Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 I keep the crossover in the amp rack and run a 100' Cat5 cable along with the snake, connecting it to my laptop with a simple USB to RS232 adapter with an RJ45 jack. In the rack I use an RJ45 to RS232 adapter to connect to the crossover. Basically I'm running the RS232 protocol over a standard cat5 networking cable. Not a perfect solution but very affordable, and it allows me decent control of the system from FOH with a laptop. Ultimately it would be nice to set up a secure wireless network for such things. I'm not confident that the Cat5 cables are really road worthy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 With the number of Cat5 based digital snakes coming out now & soon, I'd think that a Cat5 snake cable would be a no-brainer. Bundle 4 or 8 Cat5 lines into a nice sturdy jacket and you'd have something durable, smaller than a 16-pair analog snake, and capable of carrying a widely diverse set of signals. Go Cat5E or Cat6 and you could even carry balanced analog audio on some of the lines because the twisting of the pairs is very tight. Or use a pair of baluns and run video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 There are still plenty of reliability problems (across the platform) for this to be a truly great cost effective, reliably system. And, if something fails, troubleshooting and repairing are pretty tough. Totally redundant systems is the only practical way, some manufacturers provide this as part of the basic hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 Where to locate depends on many factors.First, how important is it to access the crossover at FOH? Second, do you want anyone messing or having the ability to mess with your crossover. For the single engineer system, a digital processor can be very handy to have at FOH, allowing the engineer to adjust system delay times and fine tune the system to the room via the processor. For the pro/touring systems, it's typically a requirement of national acts. For the midline company, that doesn't nexessarily always see the brightest of bulbs behind the console as guest engineerrs, it's often wise to keep "out of sight out of mind" once the processor is properly set. It only takes a minor wrong adjustment to make your system sound like crap or blow something up, like lowering the hp filter on your 2" from 1.6k to 60hz. There are the obvious wiring advantages to being in the amp racks, a pair (left/right) as opposed to several pairs (L/R subs, lows mids and high, 8 lines total). Personally I prefer it at FOH. Since most all modern digital processors have lockout features, you can simply lock the unit so Mr "hey what does this do?" can't f#@! anything up, but the guy who has a clue and asks if you can move the system back a few ms you can easily do this at the FOH to his/her satisfaction. I also like the eq abilities of the digital processors. I'll use the processor eq's to get the system flat, leaving the FOH 1/3 octave graphs for any guest engineers. It's nice to have a veteran engineer come in, listen to the system, and find they need to do nothing or very minimal to a FOH eq to get the system to sound great. Many processors also have the ability to be remotely controlled via ethernet or RS-232 (but not USB that I know of) thus allowing amp rack loocating with FOH (or wi-fi remote) control. This is the best of both worlds IMHO, keeping the wiring from FOH to racks simple but access to control where you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Many processors also have the ability to be remotely controlled via ethernet or RS-232 (but not USB that I know of) thus allowing amp rack loocating with FOH (or wi-fi remote) control. This is the best of both worlds This one Peavey VSX 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 12, 2006 Members Share Posted March 12, 2006 The password thing then requires interaction with an engineer who may not want to hear the answer "NO". Putting them out of the way makes it less inviting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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