George L's

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Unalaska So I get the idea you sold these while working at an MI store?

 

 

Actually, no. I never sold them. I was in pro audio and my opinion is they have little use in most pro audio equipment.

 

 

Originally posted by Unalaska There is only one reason to use an unbalanced cable and that's when one peice of equipment CAN'T use it. For simplicities sake it's best to run all XLR since many many times those cables are balanced and lock to whatever they're connected to. If that's not an option then Balanced TRS is next provided it works with the gear.

 

 

This is a fallacy. (One I used to believe.) There are significant advantages for using balanced cables in many situations, but for short runs where induced noise is unlikely, the additional electronics in electronically balanced connections can cause more problems than simply using unbalanced connections. Over long distances the likelyhood of induced noise is great, and differentially balanced connections are superior. I think you might be surprised to find out how much "balanced" gear using XLR's isn't.

 

 

Originally posted by Unalaska I'd like to see the elimination of the 1/4 plug personally. It does save space but it can be used for speaker, TS, TRS and even mic level connex. The idea that a 1/4 cable would fail inside a rack makes me think the cable itself is prone to problems.

 

 

Not exactly sure what you're saying here. You seem to contradict yourself. But any cable can fail inside a rack, though it's less likely because of the protection of the rack itself. Soldered or not, vibration can create issues, but the biggest reason I don't use 1/4" cables in racks when possible is the lack of a lock. Few products have locking 1/4" jacks.

 

 

Originally posted by Unalaska Also using a cable where the connection between the cable and connector isn't soldered makes me nervous. As easily it goes on it comes off as well. So, why chance it? The time it takes you to rig up a new cable I can open us the cable case and get another one KNOWING it will work once in place.

 

 

These comments, previously voiced by others in this thread, are precisely why I posted. They don't "come off as easily as they go on". That's a fallacy, assuming that vibration or other normal wear are analogous to a human being's direct force screwing the set screw through vinyl into the metal shield. They're not equivalent and I haven't heard any more failures by GeorgeL cables than any others. I've been on the road enough to have seen lots of artists and sidemen using GeorgeL's. If they were any more susceptable to failure they would've been taken off those pros' pedalboards and instruments a long time ago.

 

 

Originally posted by Unalaska (Almost done with the rant here) George L's are a product for guitarists and bassist who: 1. don't carry extra cables usually 2. cables are plugged into FX pedals on the floor where they are stepped on 3. will pay more for "botiuqe" cables whether they work or not. Most of the people on this forum play bass, let's see what they use... p

 

 

Your #3.. is that to imply someone's being duped because they use GeorgeL's?? Go use your ears in a blind test with any standard cable and I'm quite sure, if your ears work, you'll hear a difference. The same is true of many other boutique cables, but GeorgeL's cost a fraction of the price of those others. $28.50 for a 20ft .225 cable is hardly an increase over standard cables, but you're definitely getting what you pay for.

 

As for who's using them, there are guitarists and bassists. Last time I checked I don't use products because someone else does. I use them because they're good products.

[bigmike216]

Originally posted by fantasticsound GeorgeL cables use coaxial cable with very low capacitance. Like boutique cables with low capacitance wire, you can hear an audible difference in use with guitars and guitar f/x. Using cables like these is often subjectively described as taking a blanket off your speakers. Hardly surprising because the high frequency content that was previously lost to capacitance can be heard. They also claim some anti-static properties to reduce noise in your system. So GeorgeL's provide an audible improvement over standard, TS guitar cables. Without knowing what was changed I heard the difference myself, the first time someone auditioned GeorgeL's for me when I did work in MI retail. But coax isn't just used for low capacitance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You speak of coax cable like it's something unique to GeorgeL's..

[agedhorse]

Co-ax has been around since long before GeorgeL was born.

As far as unbalanced being better than balanced (electronics) that's pretty much crap when you consider the issues of ground loop noise and lack of a solution versus any induced noise issues. Balanced is superior in all ways.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound I do not work for GeorgeL nor do I sell their product. Truth be told, I have a NAMM freebie of an f/x pedal connector made from GeorgeL parts and a single .225 cable I got free because some nimrod thought it was trash because it was intermittant. one cut and a turn of the screwdriver and I had a nice new cable.

 

 

And if that tiny pin and screw actually made reliable contact *long-term*, this problem would not have happened. May have been lucky for you, but when that board cut out mid-song, I'll bet the user didn't feel the same way. Thanks, but I like to build my cables once and then use them, not shorten them every few months.

 

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound But for those who are ignorant and those who think they know about GeorgeL's alike, here's the skinny...

 

 

And for a moment there I thought there might have been some condescending remarks thrown in for good measure.

 

I'm glad we've got someone who knows the "skinny" to set us straight here. I for one feel blessed.

 

 

Originally posted by fantasticsound GeorgeL cables use coaxial cable with very low capacitance. Like boutique cables with low capacitance wire, you can hear an audible difference in use with guitars and guitar f/x. Using cables like these is often subjectively described as taking a blanket off your speakers. Hardly surprising because the high frequency content that was previously lost to capacitance can be heard. They also claim some anti-static properties to reduce noise in your system.

 

 

 

Can you provide spec on this low-capacitance? Got the spec on other brands like Belden and Canare? If you're gonna start spouting the science, be prepared with real numbers. The reality is that the capacitance levels of any decent quality cable will only have an effect on frequencies so high that dogs can't even hear them.

 

By all means be happy with the George L's. They're a decent product at a decent price, and fit a need for some folks who like custom lengths but are too inept or unwilling to solder. But let's leave it at that. Copper is copper.

[ctardi]

We would probably care about your research in a guitar forum...read the top of the page. . . Live sound and production. Unless george L makes XLR's, I don't give a flying f**k about them. (I say that in the nicest way possible).

I have and sometimes use 2, 1/4" TS cables, and they are for when guitarist forget theirs.

Also, as I understand static electricity, it is a difference in charge between two sources...in order for a cable to prevent that, wouldn't it need to be shorted out?

[Prog]

What is this famous "low-capacitance" of GeorgeL? How does, say, a Belden of comparable classification and application compare? Isn't about 12 to 15pF/foot about the norm?

As for soldering "irons". I use soldering pencils for such small work as cable connectors. 60 watts for a cable end? A Weller soldering station I use draws 22W total. A Weller WM120 pencil I have is only 12Watts. The FAA uses them for certification testing, too.

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/weller/popups/wm120.htm

"Extra" circuitry for balanced audio is only a "problem" for the manufacturer. They've figured out how to deal with it years and years ago. All things being equal, you just can't get the same s/n performance from unbalanced audio.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by bigmike216 Originally posted by fantasticsound GeorgeL cables use coaxial cable with very low capacitance. Like boutique cables with low capacitance wire , you can hear an audible difference in use with guitars and guitar f/x. Using cables like these is often subjectively described as taking a blanket off your speakers. Hardly surprising because the high frequency content that was previously lost to capacitance can be heard. They also claim some anti-static properties to reduce noise in your system.             You speak of coax cable like it's something unique to GeorgeL's..

 

Read it again. I clearly stated this is like boutique cables. I don't consider GeorgeL's to be boutique, though they're certainly a step up from the standard fare.

[Prog]

Okay, I tried to find some info at the GeorgeL website and no technical info is available. A lot of guitar players are mentioned, though.

As for the two different diameter cables they use, their comment is, "There is no difference in sound quality of the Vintage Red or Traditional Black colored cable. There is also no change in sound between .155 or .225 cable."

Other than that, they just say that it is good.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Craigv Originally posted by fantasticsound GeorgeL cables use coaxial cable with very low capacitance. Like boutique cables with low capacitance wire, you can hear an audible difference in use with guitars and guitar f/x. Using cables like these is often subjectively described as taking a blanket off your speakers. Hardly surprising because the high frequency content that was previously lost to capacitance can be heard. They also claim some anti-static properties to reduce noise in your system. Can you provide spec on this low-capacitance? Got the spec on other brands like Belden and Canare? If you're gonna start spouting the science, be prepared with real numbers. The reality is that the capacitance levels of any decent quality cable will only have an effect on frequencies so high that dogs can't even hear them.

 

I'm so glad you asked! Yes, I can.

 

Rather than make you wade through all this to find out what we thought was the best-sounding cable, let

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by ctardi We would probably care about your research in a guitar forum...read the top of the page. . . Live sound and production. Unless george L makes XLR's, I don't give a flying f**k about them. (I say that in the nicest way possible). I have and sometimes use 2, 1/4" TS cables, and they are for when guitarist forget theirs. Also, as I understand static electricity, it is a difference in charge between two sources...in order for a cable to prevent that, wouldn't it need to be shorted out?

Wow. So much attitude and so little knowledge.... (I say that in the nicest way possible, too.)

First, I didn't bring up the question. I'm just giving the answer. As I stated and you point out, the answer for the original poster is these are not the product for your PA. But that doesn't justify the lambasting of GeorgeL's by several previous posters.

As for static, dielectrics used as insulators between conductors in a cable can hold a charge, causing a cable to become microphonic. The anti-stat is, if I'm stating this correctly, to keep a charge from forming in the cable from the electrical current and rubbing of the dielectric against the conductor(s).

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Prog What is this famous "low-capacitance" of GeorgeL? How does, say, a Belden of comparable classification and application compare? Isn't about 12 to 15pF/foot about the norm?

 

 

GeorgeL's are famous for using low capacitance, coax for instrument cables. I didn't mean to imply their coax is better than other coax. Just that coax, in general, is very low capacitance. To my knowledge no other major cable manufacturer uses coax for instrument cables, but I could be wrong about that.

 

 

Originally posted by Prog As for soldering "irons". I use soldering pencils for such small work as cable connectors. 60 watts for a cable end? A Weller soldering station I use draws 22W total . A Weller WM120 pencil I have is only 12Watts. The FAA uses them for certification testing, too.

 

 

I was only using numbers thrown out by previous posters. I can't remember for certain, but I think my variable maxxes out at 30w.

 

 

Originally posted by Prog "Extra" circuitry for balanced audio is only a "problem" for the manufacturer. They've figured out how to deal with it years and years ago. All things being equal, you just can't get the same s/n performance from unbalanced audio.

 

 

Actually, you can get exactly the same s/n so long as outside interference is not a factor.

 

I haven't forgotten about you, Agedhorse I'm looking for the specific information on the balanced/unbalanced issues, so I'll be back on that later.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound That's 21pf per foot including the cable ends. But your assertion that capacitance doesn't audibly affect high frequency content is just wrong. Don't take my word for it. Go out and use your ears. The difference in sound from guitar p'ups through various cables is easy to hear.

 

 

Where is this assertion of mine that you claim? I stated quite clearly that the differences in capacitance among decent cables would only affect frequencies well above the range of human hearing. Further, these differences are only to a very small degree in the lengths of cable normally used for instruments. You've fallen victim to the common misuse of specs for marketing purposes. Sure capacitance affects frequency response. But not where you think, or to the amount you assume.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound GeorgeL's are famous for using low capacitance, coax for instrument cables. I didn't mean to imply their coax is better than other coax. Just that coax, in general, is very low capacitance. To my knowledge no other major cable manufacturer uses coax for instrument cables, but I could be wrong about that.

 

 

What do they use? Do you know what a coaxial cable is?

[Prog]

Originally posted by fantasticsound To my knowledge no other major cable manufacturer uses coax for instrument cables, but I could be wrong about that.

The majority of instrument cables are coax. This has been the case for decades. I don't ever recall buying anything else.

GeorgeLs 21pF/foot is higher than the 12 to 15pF/foot that I've seen spec'd.

I do have some GeorgeL cable in use somewhere, but I only used the solderless connectors a couple of times. They are long gone. I never noticed the cable being any better than the typical quality cable I buy from Belden and the like.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Craigv Where is this assertion of mine that you claim? I stated quite clearly that the differences in capacitance among decent cables would only affect frequencies well above the range of human hearing. Further, these differences are only to a very small degree in the lengths of cable normally used for instruments. You've fallen victim to the common misuse of specs for marketing purposes. Sure capacitance affects frequency response. But not where you think, or to the amount you assume.

 

 

Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I clearly said

But your assertion that capacitance doesn't audibly affect high frequency content is just wrong.

Audibly. As in can be heard in the normal range of human hearing.

 

So if the completely audible differences between levels of cables aren't due to capacitance, then what causes them, Craigv??

 

Do you contend that "decent" cables include Whirlwind, Rapco and other common cables? I would consider them decent. They work. They do a relatively ok job of moving signal from point A to point B. They're reasonably robust and reliable. But there is a completely audible difference between these cables and the next tier, which I would suggest includes GeorgeL's, Mogami, some Belden, Monster, Zaolla, etc., some of which are overpriced, overhyped cable and others which are just good cable.

[Prog]

Originally posted by fantasticsound Actually, you can get exactly the same s/n so long as outside interference is not a factor.

Possibly in a single stage, but I can't think of any complete audio chain (even to a line output) that has a single stage. Not one.

 

An audio chain to a line output is incomplete. It has to go somewhere to be heard. Even to be recorded it has to go somewhere to be complete.

 

Running a typical mic (SM58 for example) balanced is how it's designed. To convert it to run unbalanced deters from it's performance right out of the gate.

 

Balancing an unbalanced source as soon as possible preserves it's performance through the following inevitable gain stages to a greater extent.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Craigv What do they use? Do you know what a coaxial cable is?

 

 

I don't know who builds their coax. They may build their own, but I'd guess it would be easier to use an existing vendor.

 

By design, coaxial cables contain most electromagnetism within the space between the shield and conductor. This results in an unbalanced signal that rejects outside interference pretty well.

 

That's an oversimplification though.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Prog Possibly in a single stage, but I can't think of any complete audio chain (even to a line output) that has a single stage. Not one. An audio chain to a line output is incomplete. It has to go somewhere to be heard. Even to be recorded it has to go somewhere to be complete.

 

 

How many balanced speaker lines have you used??

 

As I said, it comes down to length of cables and likelyhood of induced interference. Speaker cables need not be balanced because the high level signals completely mask most outside interference. Otherwise you'd see balanced speaker lines, too.

 

 

Running a typical mic (SM58 for example) balanced is how it's designed. To convert it to run unbalanced deters from it's performance right out of the gate.

 

 

I already addressed this. how many mics are connected with two foot cables? Of course a differentially balanced line will be and advantage with such long cable lengths as one uses for mici'ing onstage or in the studio. In addition, the miniscule power of a microphone is easily masked by outside interference.

 

 

Balancing an unbalanced source as soon as possible preserves it's performance through the following inevitable gain stages to a greater extent.

 

 

Really? Then signal inside gear certainly must be balanced, right? Except in most cases it isn't. Signal is commonly unbalanced as soon as it hits a piece of gear, then balanced again for transmission to the next piece in the chain.

 

Really, I don't know much about this. But you can find engineers who do. I've only begun to scratch the surface of why they build audio gear the way they do.

[fantasticsound]

Whatever...

I'll see what I can find about the balanced/unbalanced issues, but I've had enough of answering people who make comments without reading what I've written.

Maybe I'm unclear on what is and isn't coax. The physical difference between the coax used for cable TV connections (relatively large, solid dielectric) and audio cable (thin shielded conductors) differentiated the two as coax and not. Despite the outer shield/inner conductors, I've never heard audio cable referred to as coax.

As it turns out, though GeorgeL's has no product of this type, they could conceivably build XLR cables with triax. Interesting...

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound I don't know who builds their coax. They may build their own, but I'd guess it would be easier to use an existing vendor. By design, coaxial cables contain most electromagnetism within the space between the shield and conductor. This results in an unbalanced signal that rejects outside interference pretty well. That's an oversimplification though.

 

 

Huh?

 

You stated:

 

To my knowledge no other major cable manufacturer uses coax for instrument cables

 

*Every* instrument cable is coax. This is basic knowledge.

[fantasticsound]

I was mistaken. As I said, I've yet to hear anyone say they wanted coax for audio applications, but it's common to hear that in other industries using cable, most notably the cable tv industry.

I think you'd agree there's several physical differences between what you'd typically think of as cable tv cable and audio application cables. But they use the video type because, among other reasons, it makes the solderless ends possible.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I clearly said Audibly. As in can be heard in the normal range of human hearing. So if the completely audible differences between levels of cables aren't due to capacitance, then what causes them, Craigv ?? Do you contend that "decent" cables include Whirlwind, Rapco and other common cables? I would consider them decent. They work. They do a relatively ok job of moving signal from point A to point B. They're reasonably robust and reliable. But there is a completely audible difference between these cables and the next tier, which I would suggest includes GeorgeL's, Mogami, some Belden, Monster, Zaolla, etc., some of which are overpriced, overhyped cable and others which are just good cable.

 

 

You go take a double-blind test of cables, and then come back and tell us how much of a difference there is. Or go check out Mogami's website and see the science. They have a calculator where you can punch in specs and output a response curve for cables. The results I came out with show that between low and high capacitance cables, for a length of 30 feet (certainly more than usual for a guitar or bass rig) the curve changes so slight as to be unoticeable, and the falloff *starts* at 15,000Hz, the upper limit of human hearing, and well above the useful output of a guitar or bass.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by fantasticsound I was mistaken. As I said, I've yet to hear anyone say they wanted coax for audio applications, but it's common to hear that in other industries using cable, most notably the cable tv industry. I think you'd agree there's several physical differences between what you'd typically think of as cable tv cable and audio application cables. But they use the video type because, among other reasons, it makes the solderless ends possible.

 

 

Nobody here mentioned coax until you made your statement that George L's was unique in using coax. The term isn't mentioned because it's a given that the cable is coax. I think you don't know what the term refers to.

[Prog]

Originally posted by fantasticsound How many balanced speaker lines have you used??

 

Any amp with a transformer output runs the speaker in a balanced mode. Speaker outputs don't use coax because of current requirements, s/n, and voltage.

Really? Then signal inside gear certainly must be balanced, right? Except in most cases it isn't . Signal is commonly unbalanced as soon as it hits a piece of gear, then balanced again for transmission to the next piece in the chain.

Only the higher end gear is balanced from stage to stage. Some are even DC coupled from stage to stage. Only for pricing is audio ever run unbalanced. Never for performance.

Really, I don't know much about this. But you can find engineers who do.

Don't be too surprised if some people here ARE engineers (EE's, not just 'engineer' by title). Ya just never know.

[fantasticsound]

I've already done the double blind tests.

I can't identify a specific cable by its' sound, but I can certainly tell you which is which between a Whirlwind, Rapco, etc. and a GeorgeL's, etc.

The first time I heard GeorgeL cable was when I worked MI retail. I was in Pro Audio when my manager came over and said, "You have to hear this." and led me to the guitar department where another salesman was playing a guitar into an amp. I listened a second, then he stopped and switched cables. There were a bunch of people listening around him and I didn't see what they did. When I heard the extra high end I asked what they had changed. (I thought my manager just wanted me to hear that amp.) Only then they told me the only difference was the cable. They proceeded to switch the cables back and forth. The difference was entirely audible with a clean tone. Even moreso with distortion because of the greater high frequency level generated by the distortion harmonics.

But thanks for the suggestion. I'll check out the Mogami website now...