How much needed for outdoor shows?

[gadgetx23]

We're looking to upgrade our FOH speakers before spring so we can cover some of our medium sized outdoor shows without renting or hiring. One option we're looking at is a pair of new SP-5's, powered by an existing PV900. For subs we're looking at either a pair of SP218's or SP118's, with an existing EP2500 (sorry, what I've got) powering them.

 

Generally speaking, does a pair of SP-5's and a pair SP118's sound like enough for an average rock band, outdoor, 500 - 1000 people?

[Ed Dixon]

Not for the outside jobs we have done, even for smaller audiences.

 

We genberally try to run at least 4 subs and 4 mains. For some of the jobs, where sound was provided, there were 8 of each. Lots of horsepower in each case.

 

Ed

[gadgetx23]

It's a bit a frustrating problem we have - I'm sure there are others here who can relate.

 

We've got 6-8 shows booked already that pay between $600-$800 for outdoor, from a few hundred up to 1000 people. When it costs $500 for a soundman, that doesn't leave much for the band. For $1000+ shows, no problem, we just hire out; but for these medium sized outdoor show, about our only choice is to do the best we can with our own equipment.

[Ed Dixon]

That's exactly what we do for most outdoor shows. We carry and use our own gear. If available, we bring a sound guy who we pay about $100 to run the gear.

 

Ed

[mitsu13gman]

I'm currently running 2 SP5's in our practice space powered by a 1000W and an 800W Samson power amp (1 amp per speaker).

 

It gets loud enough for practice, and would be okay for a small indoor gig.

 

We play crazy-intricate prog/power-metal, so headroom and clarity are pretty key. We've also got a keyboard player with no amp of his own, so it's 100% responsible for getting it to where we can all hear him.

 

For the style of music we play, it just wouldn't be enough for a large outdoor gig. Since the only places we've played so far (house PA) have been ~100 people, and those house systems were bigger than what we're pushing, I'd say you're going to need more than that.

 

On the other hand, if you're just running some light acoustic stuff through it, you might be okay.

 

As to the sub, for practice we're using my single 1x18" Carvin bass speaker with the head powering it (~500W), and it does fine in a large basement practice area. For anything larger than 50-100 people indoors, I'd want more, and outdoors I'd want a BUNCH more, but again that's for our style of music. I was actually looking at the SP118 to cover the sub duties, but since the Carvin is working for now, I see no point in wasting money where it won't help.

 

When I looked at our setup (2xSP5, 2 power amps) and what it would take to build a full gig system for the few shows we might play where a PA wasn't supplied, here's what I put together:

 

2xSP118 ~ $1k (less depending on where you shop)

2x used PLX3402 ~ $1300 (if you can even find 2) one for tops, one for subs, current amps go to monitor duty

4xYamaha ClubV monitor or similar ~ $500-$1k (depending on new/used)

 

So that totaled up to about $3k, depending on what I could and couldn't live with. At that point I'd probably need a distribution box(2x40 Amp drops for the QSC's alone), and at least a cheap crossover, plus eq's for monitors, etc. Then you have to think about lighting, etc.

 

Since I expect that we can rent an equivalent or better system, with engineer, in our market (Portland, ME) for $3-400 per night, that meant I'd need to be assured 10 of these gigs before I just broke even. Since most of the local joints have their own system, it just didn't make sense. That said, I haven't actually checked to see if that's the going rate, but even if it's $500 or more, it's still probably in my best interest to rent.

 

If I bought it all, I'd feel VERY obligated to have it start making me money, and I really didn't want to become a soundman. With minimal experience I'm liable to find myself fighting amongst the bottom-feeders, and a $3k investment to get to that level isn't my idea of a good time. Not to mention that, as I said, few places require that you rent, so I'd be fighting just to find a band playing somewhere that they needed me. So for the time being I enjoy a kick-butt practice system that'll last me years, and I'm keeping my eyes open for any deals that might come along to enhance things.

 

If anything, I'd like to upgrade the amps, since one of them actually clips audibly before the clip light goes on. Makes it kinda tough to set my gain staging between the mixer and amp.

 

Mike

[gadgetx23]

That's exactly what we do for most outdoor shows. We carry and use our own gear. If available, we bring a sound guy who we pay about $100 to run the gear. Ed

 

Only difference being you have enough equipment to cover it, and we can't afford to buy that much gear at the moment.

[preacherman672]

Only difference being you have enough equipment to cover it, and we can't afford to buy that much gear at the moment.

 

If you have someone in the crew who can build check here I've used Bill's systems outdoors and they work well. You still have to have at least double the speakers you are talking about, but if you build you can do this for a lower cost.

 

Les

[Rbts]

 

We're looking to upgrade our FOH speakers before spring so we can cover some of our medium sized outdoor shows without renting or hiring. One option we're looking at is a pair of new SP-5's, powered by an existing PV900. For subs we're looking at either a pair of SP218's or SP118's, with an existing EP2500 (sorry, what I've got) powering them. Generally speaking, does a pair of SP-5's and a pair SP118's sound like enough for an average rock band, outdoor, 500 - 1000 people?

 

 

You have to consider what people are expecting. If it is really more of a party than a concert, and mostly people who are wanting to dig the band are going to be hanging near the music area (but some of the people might be over playing volleyball or whatever), then you know it might be OK You could cover a little area, and people could dance and have fun. If you are talking about doing a "concert" where people expect to get hit in the chest little, you are just not even close.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

We're looking to upgrade our FOH speakers before spring so we can cover some of our medium sized outdoor shows without renting or hiring. One option we're looking at is a pair of new SP-5's, powered by an existing PV900. For subs we're looking at either a pair of SP218's or SP118's, with an existing EP2500 (sorry, what I've got) powering them. Generally speaking, does a pair of SP-5's and a pair SP118's sound like enough for an average rock band, outdoor, 500 - 1000 people?

 

 

You'll never cover 1000 people at rock volumes with that. Not even close.

 

 

BUT....do you have to?

 

 

1000 souls outdoors usually means people spread out over the better part of almost two acres. Those who want it loud go up front, those who want to chat and party will migrate back, etc. Nobody expects a gig that pays $600 to be supported by a 20kW system...if they do, they should pay for it. I'm guessing this isn't a "concert" per-se, but a party atmosphere.

 

I'd go forward with whatever your plans are to upgrade, and not worry about it too much.

[gadgetx23]

 

You'll never cover 1000 people at rock volumes with that. Not even close. BUT....do you have to? 1000 souls outdoors usually means people spread out over the better part of almost two acres. Those who want it loud go up front, those who want to chat and party will migrate back, etc. Nobody expects a gig that pays $600 to be supported by a 20kW system...if they do, they should pay for it. I'm guessing this isn't a "concert" per-se, but a party atmosphere. I'd go forward with whatever your plans are to upgrade, and not worry about it too much.

 

 

 

 

That's a really good point... The shows is question are family events; small town festivals where most people are away from the stage, eating, and socializing; and a handful of folks dancing in front - far different than a "concert" atmosphere, where I wouldn't dream of getting away with such a small system. I guess I should have mentioned that too.

 

There's one town festival that we play and hire a guy who brings a 20,000W system, leaving us only $50 a piece; but we do that one b/c it's fun!

 

I think you're right though - We'll just keep building our system and use what we've got at the time for these type of shows.

[bassred]

With the mobile stage I work with we have a 10,000 watt system, and it's only really bee used for smaller venues we are looking to (budget ermitting) doubl our amps/speakers for the warm season tis year.... THe corpoate stuff the company I workk for does uses a lot of powe, but w're driving Vertec's and Dv-dosc's to high volume.....

 

For outside gigs at 'concert' levels (just a shot in the dark, not to be aken as gospel truth...) I'd say 3+ thousand watts per side for the subs an 3-4+ thousand watts per side for the tops, and speaker boxes vary so much in efficiency and specs that I wouldn't even want to really get into speculating.... If you need concert level, you need more gear, if you want to give the folks a nice time an still let those fols in the back talk, yu should be O K.

[gadgetx23]

Yes, I definitely should have mentioned that at the start. The shows I'm referring to would certainly not require 'concert level' for 1000 people. I just want to make sure it sounds full for a relatively small radius around the stage where people are dancing and sounds a little better than a tin can from a distance

[tlbonehead]

We're looking to upgrade our FOH speakers before spring so we can cover some of our medium sized outdoor shows without renting or hiring. One option we're looking at is a pair of new SP-5's, powered by an existing PV900. For subs we're looking at either a pair of SP218's or SP118's, with an existing EP2500 (sorry, what I've got) powering them. Generally speaking, does a pair of SP-5's and a pair SP118's sound like enough for an average rock band, outdoor, 500 - 1000 people?

For the outdoor situations similar to what you are describing, my 3-piece band uses this.

6 or 8 of these subs with about 4500-6000 watts www.sonicspeaker.com/18e.htm

and three of these/side with about 3000 watts total going to them. http://www.hkel.com/speaker2.html (the CE36)

[sl1960a]

Personally I'd go with a pair of SP2s, and a pair of SP218s with a 3-way crossover, especially if you are buying new. It's just a better, over all investment than SP5s and SP118s. No, it's not an outdoor concert pa, but would be fine for an average rock band. If you need a "real" outdoor concert PA by all means rent, but if you aren't Led Zeppelin (and the crowd knows you're not) this setup should please most fans/listeners. Additionally you'll have great PA speakers for clubs. My band has a similar setup and at some places we just use one side of the PA speakers and have no issues at all.

 

The SP218s sound awesome!! Additionally we use an older set of SP2s, but I've heard several setups with the new SP2 cabs and they really put our old ones to shame. They are great! If you are buying off the internet, AMS does price matching plus adds an extra year warranty on top of Peavey's 5 year warranty. With some research time you can get a great price from a different site, get the price match (and extra year warranty) and BOOM - some rockin' speakers at a great price. I have found a new SP2 under $400 and a new SP218 under $600 - w/shipping just over $2000 for all new PA cabs with a six year warranty? Sounds good to me.

 

Okay I'm rambling. I'm not afilliated with Peavey or AMS, but have used both for several years - just trying to help out a fellow musician lovin' their music.

[joel77]

gadgetx23,

 

What part of Iowa are you in? I run an SR company in the east/central part of Nebraska. Keep me in mind if you need some help!

 

I also agree that you don't need huge amounts of power and speakers if you're doing the types of street dance/small town celebrations that we do around here. Get it loud enough for the people in the front and let those further away visit/talk with resonable SPLs.

 

Joel, Studio 52

[Mogwix]

We use a quartet of SP2's powered by a pair of PV1600 bi-pack amps, and a quartet of SP218's powered by a pair of PV3800's. A pair of subs and tops per side in front of the stage, generally makes a lot of people happy. Personally I feel this JUST covers the shows we play where there's about 1000 people outdoors, but a local dude I sometimes work with thinks that this is way too much power. He'll take a pair of 218 bins and a pair of tops out, and runs the whole thing pretty quiet. He's nice to his equipment, but IMO we need to ROCK! The system is not mine however, but I will be purchasing pretty much the exact system when I am able to, I am completely happy with it. The sound is incredible, Peavey has definitely delivered with the SP series.

[Ed Dixon]

Only difference being you have enough equipment to cover it, and we can't afford to buy that much gear at the moment.

 

I understand. However if it is going to cost $500 per show to rent and there are 6-8 of them, then that's about 3K, which will buy a fair amount of PA gear. It might be worth considering buying some more gear and pay for it over the time out of these shows.

 

When the dust settles, you own the gear. That's the way we got some of the gear we have now.

 

You can even save more by getting used gear, and then prehaps later trading up for better stuff. We have changed gear at least 3 times over the last 6 years with exactly that approach.

 

Ed

[gadgetx23]

 

gadgetx23, What part of Iowa are you in? I run an SR company in the east/central part of Nebraska. Keep me in mind if you need some help! I also agree that you don't need huge amounts of power and speakers if you're doing the types of street dance/small town celebrations that we do around here. Get it loud enough for the people in the front and let those further away visit/talk with resonable SPLs. Joel, Studio 52

 

 

 

I'm in eastern Iowa; Dubuque area... might be quite jog for you, but thanks for the offer!

[joel77]

I'm in eastern Iowa; Dubuque area... might be quite jog for you, but thanks for the offer!

 

Cool!

 

Yeh, that would be quite a drive!!

 

Joel

[DJ Swydez]

If it is a Peavey system that you want, one configuration you could possibly do is this:

 

(2) Peavey SP-2 Speakers (Bi-amped)

(1) Peavey PV-900 (which you own) for the highs

(1) Peavey PV-2600 for the lows

(2) Peavey SP-218 Subwoofers

(1) Peavey PV-3800 for the subwoofers (1 per channel)

(2) Speaker Stands

(1) 8U Rack

(1) 2 or 3 Way Crossover with Subwoofer Out

 

(I'd ditch the Behringer)

 

You could probably could get all of this gear for around $3600 or less with tax after some negotiation at a local store. That would fit in your budget with 6-8 shows paying at least $600/pc. After that, all is profit!

 

Good luck!

[prosigna]

Something you may want to consider is the amount of electrical service you will have available to you. To run a big rig with lots of power amps requires more that just some 15-amp extension cords and power strips (well... at least you would need a whole lot of them). Without a portable power distro you are limited in the amount of juice available.

 

One band I gig with caries a pair of powered Yorkville subs and mains. That plus backline and monitors pulls 40-amps easy. We cannot run the full rig full tilt on (2) 15-amp circuits without tripping the breaker. Double the size of the rig and the AC requirements get large fast.

 

How were you going to power all this stuff?

[Ed Dixon]

Power is always a concern, expecially for outdoor jobs where runs may be longer. In our case, two 20A circuits will run our total gear set. However this clearly varies based on how many amps and other gear (like lights for night gigs) you run.

 

One thing you need for outside jobs is lots of extra long extension cords. Another handy item is walkie talkies, so when you encounter the unlabeled fuze box, you can more easily determine which circuits you actually have access to.

 

Ed

[Dandy Don]

Our band is a 3 piece R&R/ country rock band and for year's we ran 2 EV SX-500's for top's and 2 EV horn loaded 18's for the bottom end along with 2 QSC power amp's 1450, and 2450. This year the EV sub's have been replaced by Cerwin Vega Earthquake Jr's, so far i'm very impressed with the new sub's. In the past we havent had issue's with the system not being loud enough in fact we did a Harley ralley last summer with approx 1200 people it was held in an open air tent and were told it was a bit to loud. I think IMO speaker choice is much more important in an outdoor enviroment than trying to over power your system by pushing more watt's than your speaker's are able to handel, before you buy your speaker's check there efficancy as well as there spl's you might be very surprized!!

[tlbonehead]

Our band is a 3 piece R&R/ country rock band and for year's we ran 2 EV SX-500's for top's and 2 EV horn loaded 18's for the bottom end along with 2 QSC power amp's 1450, and 2450. This year the EV sub's have been replaced by Cerwin Vega Earthquake Jr's, so far i'm very impressed with the new sub's. In the past we havent had issue's with the system not being loud enough in fact we did a Harley ralley last summer with approx 1200 people it was held in an open air tent and were told it was a bit to loud. I think IMO speaker choice is much more important in an outdoor enviroment than trying to over power your system by pushing more watt's than your speaker's are able to handel, before you buy your speaker's check there efficancy as well as there spl's you might be very surprized!!

That's just it. What works for some doesn't work for others. You system would be even close to enough for us for outdoors. But it evidently gets you by ok.

[6Imzadi]

YA, svre. Eh?