CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 18, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 So you think that the physical structure of the mic has nothing to do with the response now? Here's a dollar, go buy a clue. Wait, better take two, you need it!!!!!!! I'm a Shure beta tester, have been since 1990. I had the 3rd Beta52 ever made, after Monty Lee Wilkes and Bruce Jackson. The 52, 57a, 56 and 58a all use the EXACT same element. The difference in the response curves is totally due to the physical differences in the housing. Same is true of the SM58, 57 and SM7. All the same element, diffferent housing. Common knowledge among professionals. Is there anything I can write that won't get a smartass response from you? Please, let me know. Did I ever say, or allude, to the cartridge or the housing NOT having an effect on the response? Go back and READ my posts. I made no comments whatsoever about this. Instead of giving you {censored} about it, I emailed the manufacturer to ask them. If you think they're wrong or I'm lying, I'll be more than happy to email their responses to you or anyone else here who would like them. And you can contact Shure and set them straight. If I got wrong info, by all means show me your proof or some evidence supporting this, since you're so adamant about it you feel it necessary to insult me. **Edited to correct that I *emailed* not called, Shure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted January 18, 2007 Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 The 52, 57a, 56 and 58a all use the EXACT same element. The difference in the response curves is totally due to the physical differences in the housing. Now that I don't consider entirely plausible. I could see the 52 having a different transformer and a passive tone-shaping network. But the shape of the housing and windscreen wouldn't have enough effect to make the usual kick-drum EQ curve. And if we're bragging expertise here... I build microphones for fun and profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted January 18, 2007 Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 I can't speak for the shure mics because I don't know, some EV mics are the same capule in a different housing though (ND168 is a 757 capsule etc). Looking at most kick mics you'll see the capsule and a larger housing, acting like a backiling plate which DOES change the freq respone of the element. It also effects the polar pattern to some degree, all of these traits more advantagous to mic'ng low freq instruments. So if shure were to use the same element, that's cool, what's the big problem?p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 18, 2007 Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 I called the manufacturer to ask them. If you think they're wrong or I'm lying, I'll be more than happy to email their responses to you or anyone else here who would like them. And you can contact Shure and set them straight Whoever you spoke to at Shure was incorrect. It's pretty common knowledge the SM and BetaA series use the same capsules, the difference is the housing, which massively affects the mics response, same as a speaker enclosure affects the response of the speaker in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BassDemon Posted January 18, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 Guys, can we please not argue about something that really makes no difference in the end.Regardless of what a mic is made out of it will generally either be considered a good mic or a bad mic. The Beta 52 seems to have a pretty good rep.The Audix D6 has some fans and some people that don't like it. From a rental perspective I can find plenty of Beta 52s but not a single D6 I've ruled the Beta 91 out as I'm looking for something I can use on my bass cab as well. From a buying perspective Shure and Audix are easily available. The Sennheiser e902 and Atm25 are a special order items and will take weeks to arrive. So it's a two horse race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted January 18, 2007 Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 I assume you've talked to local SR companies? While the 902 and 25 would be less common, I'm surprised you can't find one that has a D6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted January 18, 2007 Members Share Posted January 18, 2007 The best drum mic will sound terrible in a poorly tuned/tensioned kick drum. Learn to tune the drums. Garbage in, garbage out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Krank'N Posted January 19, 2007 Members Share Posted January 19, 2007 Theoretically the shape of the housing will change proximity effect (which most kick mics rely on for their sound).To have such drastic change in LF from sm57 to Beta52 may be more than that.Just as guitar humbuckers have different winds of coil ,so may be the case here?! Shure could start with the same structure and fine tune it with winding.More winds = less hi frequencies.Also the beta series use hotter magnets(neodyne).In this scenario both comments could be correct! Another good kick mic is the Beyer M380TG(I prefer the original ones before they put a neo magnet in them). For classic good kick definition eq for a presence peak just below the range of your hi-hats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted January 19, 2007 Members Share Posted January 19, 2007 Whoever you spoke to at Shure was incorrect. It's pretty common knowledge the SM and BetaA series use the same capsules, the difference is the housing, which massively affects the mics response, same as a speaker enclosure affects the response of the speaker in it. You know, I'm not entirely certain and I could be wrong, but I think the dudes that designed and built the microphone would know what capsules are in each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted January 19, 2007 Members Share Posted January 19, 2007 You know, I'm not entirely certain and I could be wrong, but I think the dudes that designed and built the microphone would know what capsules are in each. I'm probably barking up the wrong tree here...If you read the posts carefully, Where's claims are about the Beta52, Craig's query to Shure was about the Beta52A. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Black Frog Posted January 19, 2007 Members Share Posted January 19, 2007 If you look that manufacturer's specification sheets for the Beta52A, Beta57A, and Beta58A- they all have a different elements listed. I would tend to that that the MANUFACTURER would know what they are using in their product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members therealwhere Posted January 21, 2007 Members Share Posted January 21, 2007 Different manufacturer numbers, but they are all the same element. Same with the SM series, each mic has a different manufacturers number for the replacement element, but they are in fact all the same element. There is some diference in the physical housing of them, but the element itself is the same for all the mics in each series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 More windings = less high frequencies? I don't think that can be a universal statement. There is a LOT more going on, including BL, and alteration of the magnetic circuit by gap geometry. Then there is the physical elements themselves. If you are talking about (static) inductance, it may or may not have more inductance with more windings depending on the core material permeability, but that by itself is pretty inconsequential. I am ready to listen to a plausable argument though and am prepared to alter my perspective based on some technically supportable info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BassDemon Posted January 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I actually ended up renting an SM91, only Kick mic I could get from anywhere. Did the drums for 7 songs and the kick sounds really good. Very much like the acoustic drum sound. I haven't mixed it yet but I think with just a little bit of EQ it should be killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Krank'N Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 All other things being = more windings reduce hi-frequency period. Of course if you change gaps or magnets or other factors it changes the equation. If the elements are identical in other respects then this is a posssible reason.However one cant rule out the transformer being different as well.I suspect if you swap the elements between the 57 and 52 it would end this debate!On another note -yesterday I watched someone try something new in a session. He took a really thin sounding cheap radio shack mic and layed it on a rug on the floor about 7" in front of resonant kick head . You would think this would be terrible sonding!! -but it produces a HUGE amount of bottom end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 23, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 The debate was over for me when I contacted Shure directly and asked them. I'll accept a reasoned response from the manufacturer over a "because I said so" pretty much every time. But I'm funny like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yeahbuddy Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 i watched a guy smaart a 57 and a 52. they plotted the SAME response. i didnt want to believe it but i swear to all the power in the universe they were identical. The guy's also sim certified so id hate to think it was just user error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members preacherman672 Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Best sound we got out of a kick mic for recording our CD in the studio was a 57 with a blanket over the end of the kick drum. Wouldn't try it live though, lol. Live I've used the Beta 52 and don't particularly like it. It has very little low end for our style of music. Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 23, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 i watched a guy smaart a 57 and a 52. they plotted the SAME response. i didnt want to believe it but i swear to all the power in the universe they were identical. The guy's also sim certified so id hate to think it was just user error I don't doubt what you saw, but I've used -52's and -57's together on kick and they have quite different response...the 52 handles the majority of the low end, and the -57 does a great job with the beater. I've also used a -57 in a pinch by itself, and it sounds nothing at all like a -52. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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