$2500 USD PA System

[Craig Vecchione]

Pictures are always helpful. Acoustic Modeling software allows the designer to see the outcome of speaker choice and placement prior to the installation. Here are two models we did for a church installation. The seating area was 80' wide by 50' deep with a 24' peaked ceiling. The first picture shows a center cluster of three FRi 152+ EV speakers. The second is just two FRi 152+ cabs hung in a proceninum fashion. Guess which system we used...

 

 

 

Is the point that using three speakers is better than using two? Of course the coverage is spotty in the lower example...the speakers are lower, oriented to point too far down and towards the sidewalls. Can you show coverage with three speakers at equal height, (center higher if needed) pointed to fire at the midpoint of the room's depth and the outside pair angled in a bit more? I'll bet it'll even out nicely. In fact I think the center speaker could even be removed and you'd still have decent coverage.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

wow.. The top used 3 FRi 152+ EV speakers, and they set you $930 each.. that's already 3 grand in speakers. I totally agree with Josh. I would love to seek professional help and get it done properly. But with $2500 as budget.. I really don't know how to split that down. So far I am quiet certain on the A&H wiz3 16:2 for mixer. Now i need to look for speakers. Hey Josh, you suggested the Peavey PR-15, most places are selling it for $199 each (you said $399 each.. u meant as a pair?) Anyways, I've never experienced it before. How well do they sound, because that thing looks quiet tiny.

 

 

I'd see a problem with the Mixwiz/PR-15 rig. As good as the Mixwizard is, if your budget is fixed and later upgrades are difficult or out of the question, it doesn't make sense to have that much bidget tied up in the mixer, and then resort to entry-level speakers. May as well get a $500 mixer and save money for mics and cables, as the mixer won't improve sound to a great degree. It's like the mansion sitting in a slum.

 

Regarding your question, the PR-15 is not tiny. It's roughly 20" wide, 24" tall, 18" deep.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Where should the sound system fall on the list of missions given to the church?

 

Well... I'm of the impression that folks go to church for a couple of reasons:

 

1) To hang out with other birds of a feather.

 

2) To HEAR the sermon.

 

Am I missing something? If not, then I suggest for "church" to happen:

 

1) The congregation probably needs a building that is suitable for congregating in... roof, walls, floor, heating system in the winter, bathroom... all are probably "must have items" for a church.

 

2) The ways and means to hear the preacher. If the church is small enough, and the preacher is a good enough orator, maybe no sound reinforcement is needed, but if sound reinforcement is needed, then the system needs to be suitable for the situation... just like the roof needs to be suitable for the local weather.

 

Stained glass windows, fancy lighting, polished brass fixtures, etc... I would think should be further down the priority list.

[agedhorse]

Is the point that using three speakers is better than using two? Of course the coverage is spotty in the lower example...the speakers are lower, oriented to point too far down and towards the sidewalls. Can you show coverage with three speakers at equal height, (center higher if needed) pointed to fire at the midpoint of the room's depth and the outside pair angled in a bit more? I'll bet it'll even out nicely. In fact I think the center speaker could even be removed and you'd still have decent coverage.

I would likemto add to Craig's comment that software is only as good as the person using it, and with appropriate massaging of data, can be used to manipulate the results that bear no representation on a real and viable solution.

From engineering experience, the L/R hang is NOT indicitave of a properly implimented design. It shows poor (very poor IMO) grasp of the geometry of coverage solutions. Either the software is wrong, the design is poor or the speaker is inappropriate. Also, the graphs do not show frequency dependant polar coverage patterns, and at lower frrquencies, the center cluster may exhibit bvery poor directionality to thepoint of causing problems with lavaliere mics.

Garbage in = garbage out.

[yinger]

 

Sorry for the confusion. Peavey makes 2 models of the 15" PR series speaker. The PR-15 is around $200 and is a passive speaker. You have to provide a power amp to drive it. The PR-15P is the powered version. They go for around $400. I will go back and edit that post. I feel your pain about the budget. I am part time on staff with a church this size as a Youth Pastor. I never use my political capital to get more money spent on sound. There are other missions the church has that are more important than fancy sound gear. When I ask for money it is for our Youth Program not the sound system. I find it ironic how often people complain about big churches spending too much on sound and then complain when small churches don't spend enough.

 

 

I run the worship team for the youth congregation. Given a budget, I am already very thankful. Now it's just the fact of making it for good use. I believe maybe in the future we'll have another budget for extra equipments. Such as mics & monitors. That's why I want to get the essential & good equipment out of the way; mixer & speakers. And if I have any extra, then i'll get a mic or two.

 

Speaking of PR-15 (powered), if I get two passive PR-15 ($200/each), that's only $400. And the PR-15(powered) are $800 for both. Isn't it better to get the passive one then get a decent $400 amp such as the QSC RMX1450?

[yinger]

I'd see a problem with the Mixwiz/PR-15 rig. As good as the Mixwizard is, if your budget is fixed and later upgrades are difficult or out of the question, it doesn't make sense to have that much bidget tied up in the mixer, and then resort to entry-level speakers. May as well get a $500 mixer and save money for mics and cables, as the mixer won't improve sound to a great degree. It's like the mansion sitting in a slum. Regarding your question, the PR-15 is not tiny. It's roughly 20" wide, 24" tall, 18" deep.

 

 

i actually hope in the future the church will give out another small budget for better monitors & mics or upgrades.

 

It's the PR-15 enough to fill a space with ~175 people?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I run the worship team for the youth congregation. Given a budget, I am already very thankful. Now it's just the fact of making it for good use. I believe maybe in the future we'll have another budget for extra equipments. Such as mics & monitors. That's why I want to get the essential & good equipment out of the way; mixer & speakers. And if I have any extra, then i'll get a mic or two. Speaking of PR-15 (powered), if I get two passive PR-15 ($200/each), that's only $400. And the PR-15(powered) are $800 for both. Isn't it better to get the passive one then get a decent $400 amp such as the QSC RMX1450?

 

 

 

Not really. The amps in the PR-15P are well matched, and you get the big added benefit that the -P is biamped. You won't need to rack an amp, or come up with heavy speaker cables (the extension cords to power the amps are typically a lot cheaper, and if you get lucky with outlets, can be shorter as well), and overall the sound will probably be better.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

i actually hope in the future the church will give out another small budget for better monitors & mics or upgrades. It's the PR-15 enough to fill a space with ~175 people?

 

 

 

It depends on the space those 175 people are occupying. Dimensions and acoustics are a big factor, as well as the SPL you hope to achieve. For instance, if it's okay for the sound to be loud up front and much lower in the back of the room you can get away with a much different system than if you needed to put 100dB +-3dB all through the room. Folk music probably demands less volume than rock, but maybe not, so you need to consider genre(s) as well.

 

For the size space 175 would use, and assuming what I've experienced as typical praise/worship genre, the PR-15 would likely be adequate, if not something to write home about.

[jasps]

I run the worship team for the youth congregation. Given a budget, I am already very thankful. Now it's just the fact of making it for good use. I believe maybe in the future we'll have another budget for extra equipments. Such as mics & monitors. That's why I want to get the essential & good equipment out of the way; mixer & speakers. And if I have any extra, then i'll get a mic or two.

/QUOTE]


I don't mean to sound insulting, but can I just say that the idea of "making it work" is not the right idea here. You have $2500 to spend. As others here have pointed out, that's probably not going to be enough money. Maybe you'll be able to get the church on an upgrade path and maybe you'll, by some chance, get something that works for your needs and you can continue to use in the future.

Two questions:
1. What if you don't?
2. Then what?

The best option is to get the right "stuff" the first time. Here is a link: www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
Have the building committee read it. Maybe you won't buy three sound systems.

[prosigna]

These are some of my favorite excerpts from the paper listed above.

"That's what they did in the small church they just moved out of and it worked just fine!"

The 170-person church we are talking about is the small church they just moved out of.

"The church I grew up in never had a sound system, and we could hear the preacher just fine! But its seating capacity was only a few hundred."


Most preachers can cover 170-people without a mic. Churches have survived for going on 2,000 years and only had mics for the last very few of them. What we are talking about is a small room. We are also talking about a church woth a small budget. Much as the room is not likely to get bigger, neither is the budget.

There are better ways than two speakers on sticks to cover this room. None of them approach $2,500. Professional installation of a few hanging speakers will rarely approach $5,000. The processing needed to make systems designed by professionals work as advertised run in the $2,500 range alone.

The only two design issues I see as viable are as follows:

1. If this is not a growing church (like mine) a $2,500 system will cover your needs until one of the components craps out. Getting a pro install in this room would work well if you can afford the expense (lost more than $2500). The biggest complaints small churches have IMO are buzz and hum issues. We can help you with that here.

2. If you have a growing church and do not plan to be in this room long then consider speakers that can convert to floor monitors later on - or - can become a portable sound system later. When you grow into a new building the money spent on this system will be gone. You will have some gear that is useful (if you planned well) but all the money sunk into professional services is gone.

[W. M. Hellinger]

It's the PR-15 enough to fill a space with ~175 people?

 

Generally, the big problem with many church PA systems is gain before feedback. It's generally not an issue of (potentially) having enough oomph to fill the space... it's that the system's potential can't be utilized. I been recruted off and on to be the soundperson for weddings at churches. Different churches, different soundgear, different configurations... but it's always (and I do mean ALWAYS) the same thing... when I get there, the pastor, or chior, or most anything having to do with an open mic... the board's running in the mud and the amps aren't even flickering the -30dB status lights and the system's on the ragged edge of runaway feedback. Shoot... the system isn't even able to be powered beyond a watt or so without screaming feedback. IME, your name will be Mud if you ever let a healthy churp out of the system with a packed house in a church (or most anywhere else). How bad is a little feedback chirp? Number 2 behind the sound of somebody vomiting (fingernails on a chalkboard is ranked as #16... way down the list below feedback chirps).

 

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/most-disgusting-sound-in-the-world/

 

Why's it this way so commonly? Well... I guess first-off, the church is usually built to look like a church, with little if any consideration given to acoustics... but besides that, the sound system is usually an afterthought... and asthetics concerned with the installation has more bearing than any acoustical engineering... and they tend to spend the money on the board, FX gear, and physically constructing some sort of "sound booth"... to hide (and protect) all that gadgetry. The mics and speakers (the stuff that really matters) of choice are generally not chosen for their ability to produce with minimal GBF issues. That's just for starters... as it becomes obvious that the solution to the screaming feedback situation is to throw endless $100 - $200 magic black boxes at the problem... so here's racks of gates, compressors, expanders, exciters, feedback "eliminators" and the like further choking the life out of the system... and then a pile of graphic EQ's set on 24dB and big ole smiley faces all around... I guess as an attempt to get the system to sound like something besides a two cans and a string.

 

And the reason I'm called in? Cause the wedding party actually wants to hear the preacher and wedding vows... that kind of stuff... so they ask me to come perform my magic... and it's always the same story: "The church's PA stinks... could you bring in some gear and make my wedding sound good?" My "magic" usually amounts to me bringing my mics, stands, headphones, and camera. The camera is so I can take pictures of all the equipment settings before I get rid of the smiley faces and disengage the signal stranglers... and have a map of where to put the settings back to how I found them so the glowering house soundperson doesn't put a bounty on my head when I leave. Then I set their pile of Shure Prolog and the ilk mics... which are sitting on cheap straight mic stands in various states of disrepair... in a closet, set up my mics and stands, get the mic placement decent (regardless of the glowering I receive by the performers... yes, I'm gonna put this mic right up within a couple inches of the soundhole on your acoustic instrument... not 6 ft. away and hiding behind a plastic plant). I outfit the pastor with a decent wireless, and convince him that it works much better if it isn't wadded up in his sweater and robe. And gee... I'm able to get 20dB, or more gain out of the system than anyone has ever gotten.

 

anyway... I'm rambling.

[prosigna]

Come to think of it, if I was in your shoes and had $1,000 more I would spend it on an electric drum set. That would make the biggest improvement in sound you could make. IMO.

[W. M. Hellinger]

I guess what I'm getting at is to source really smooth speakers and mics... don't worry about the power so much, since 50 watts of 100% usable system power could outperform a 1000 watt feedback prone system... and beside, 50 watts of system power could be plenty sufficent if it's the right stuff, set-up and run right.

And: Folks over 60yo (or even younger) don't generally like a lot of "thump" (or cymbals) in their church sound mix.

[prosigna]

Mark, you may want to correct my math but.....

 

50-watts, 97db sensitivity, 50-feet = 90db.

 

90db in my church has the blue hairs complaining it is too loud so I would agree with the 100% usable statement.

 

I had some local bands play during a lock-in. The first two bands were from a local bible collage and they were glad to play and payed close attention when I told them what things needed to be done to sound excelent with limited resources. The were great and sounded great. The third band was trouble. I knew I was in for a problem when their drummer was unwilling to use the same kit the first two bands used. Then they unloaded (3) marshall half-stacks and a Peavey bass rig with a 410 and a 115. All of this to cover 30 kids. They sounded terrible and my system with 300-watts into (2) 15+1 speakers could not get the lead singers vocal mic to cut threw clearly. They complained they could not hear the words. I told them "that's all she's got". To sound good they must turn down their guitars until they can hear the vocals. They did not. They sounded like crap. They have never been asked back.

[jasps]

Come to think of it, if I was in your shoes and had $1,000 more I would spend it on an electric drum set. That would make the biggest improvement in sound you could make. IMO.

 

 

 

The paper listed above is meant to help all churches, not just big ones. I don't think an internet forum is a good place to design a sound system, nor do I think professional services is money down the drain as you see it. I would also question your statement that a preacher can project to a room a 170 people. Maybe, maybe not. What if the speaker doesn't project?

 

The goal is to buy the right tools for the job the first time. Maybe a system will be put together that makes sense and serves the church adequately, but, far too often the opposite is true.

 

I agree that an electric drum set would help the OP.

 

If the right people are teachable by reputable professionals regarding buying/installing a sound system, perhaps the budget will be raised; the alternative "making it work," means it most definitely will not.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Mark, you may want to correct my math but..... 50-watts, 97db sensitivity, 50-feet = 90db. 90db in my church has the blue hairs complaining it is too loud.

 

 

Is it the volume, or the genre?

[prosigna]

 

If the right people are teachable by reputable professionals regarding buying/installing a sound system, perhaps the budget will be raised; the alternative "making it work," means it most definitely will not.

 

 

I am not disagreeing with this statement but your only solution is "spend more money". If that is not an option after doing all the educating and all the begging and all of the different things hat must be done to get funds. If that is not an option what should the man do? What would you do with $2500 if you could not have one dime more?

[W. M. Hellinger]

Mark, you may want to correct my math but..... 50-watts, 97db sensitivity, 50-feet = 90db. 90db in my church has the blue hairs complaining it is too loud so I would agree with the 100% usable statement.

I've found the blue hairs actually enjoy sopping up well over 90dB, IF it sounds good to them... but it's gotta be clean, clear, smooth, and uncluttered.

 

Lessee... every doubling of the power adds maybe 3dB. Doubling the distance in a free air environment reduces the spl by 6dB... So... rough calculations shows that a 97dB sens. and 50 watts of power would be capable of 95dB in a free air environment at 50ft... and yea... 95dB could be a big plenty... and beats the crap out of the mid 50's, or maybe tickling the mid 60's I've found many church (1000+ watt) PA systems capable of actually delivering to the middle of the congregation. And not only are most of these systems I've experienced only capable of delivering maybe 65dB to the confregation... it's nasty, edgy, noisy, swimming in reflected interferrence... and just flat rude... and over-all, a complete waste of church funds IMO (over-all a disservice over NO PA)... cause everyone's scared of this PA monster... they shy from the mics and use their tiny little voices cause they know it just sounds like crap... and they don't belt it out or that might send the (unattended) PA screaming into uncontrolled feedback (again).

[jasps]

I am not disagreeing with this statement but your only solution is "spend more money". If that is not an option after doing all the educating and all the begging and all of the different things hat must be done to get funds. If that is not an option what should the man do? What would you do with $2500 if you could not have one dime more?

Bake sale?

Seriously though, I see your point. I know that it may seem callous to say the only solution is to spend more money, however what's true is true. What is desired probably cannot be attained with the original budget. It can't hurt to try through education first, though. At least the people in charge of the budget will understand that there may be issues with a lack of funds. If the church gets a proposal, it may cost less than is thought. Who knows? Especially if you consider the expense of not doing it right the first time.

I don't know what I would do if I couldn't have more than $2500 to do it right. Which makes me think I would probably punt. Tough situation, but all too common.

[yinger]

 

I am not disagreeing with this statement but your only solution is "spend more money". If that is not an option after doing all the educating and all the begging and all of the different things hat must be done to get funds. If that is not an option what should the man do? What would you do with $2500 if you could not have one dime more?

 

 

Exactly.. Who knows what happens in the future. But as of now, our church had gone under a major constructio project. Took out a hugh mortgage, and as of now, I believe $2500 is all we are gonna get.

 

 

Thanks for that article.. on "Why church buy 3 sound system." That article would be relevant to churches where they do have the capital but don't want to spend it on sound. But in our case, we don't have the capital and $2500 is all you are going to spend on sound.

 

But for now.. I can only maximize the $2500 in our youth congregation. And educate myself as much as possible and minimize purchase errors/regrets. Suggestions and recommendations from you guys already helped me greatly. Thanks again.

[W. M. Hellinger]

And educate myself as much as possible and minimize purchase errors/regrets.

 

It would be interesting to me to find out what the recommendations are for really smooth response speakers and good gain before feedback mics. Power handling capacity, power amps, and board selection are secondary considerations IMO. I think you could have a church sound system that outperforms many with even a $150 Yamaha MC1204 board and a $150 P2200 amp combined with good speakers and mics.

[preacherman672]

It would be interesting to me to find out what the recommendations are for really smooth response speakers and good gain before feedback mics. Power handling capacity, power amps, and board selection are secondary considerations IMO. I think you could have a church sound system that outperforms many with even a $150 Yamaha MC1204 board and a $150 P2200 amp combined with good speakers and mics.

 

 

+1

 

I agree with Mark on this one, get good mics and speakers first.

 

Les

[drumstix]

I Love my Mixwiz board so dont take this wrong, its a great board for bands on the go and small clubs. For a church? Its a tough call, not that the board cant perform or even out perform any board in its range. Im worried that you will out grow it to fast. 16 channels will disappear fast, choir singers, micing drums, key boards running stereo and CD players will eat up a lot of channels and then your gonna half to up grade again. Its got plenty of monitor outs if you dont need extra FX units but having a good 24 channel board might be a better place to spend some money on now. The new PV series is about the same price as the Mixwiz, that might be a better board for a churches needs esp in the budget and price range. Having a board with a 4 bus sub group is nice too for extra singers and accoustic drums. Maybe a new simular board and a used set of speakers would be a better start, then the speakers can be moved to monitors later on.

Just a thought.


http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/116193/number/00512480/cat/310/begin/1/24FX%3F.cfm

[guitarharv52]

The Peavey is good and so is the Yamaha MG with 24 channels and built in effects if you are worried about channels.I don't remember for sure but I don't know if the PV series has built in effects.The new Peavey FX series would be worth looking into.

[W. M. Hellinger]

The Peavey is good and so is the Yamaha MG with 24 channels and built in effects if you are worried about channels.I don't remember for sure but I don't know if the PV series has built in effects.The new Peavey FX series would be worth looking into.

 

IME: The members of the congregation who grease the skids want to hear the preacher. That takes up 1 (one) channel on a mixing board, and a decent wireless mice and real good speakers. They don't care about hearing the kick, or the floor tom, or the rack toms, or the bass player, or the rack of stereo keyboards, or all that other stuff and stuff and stuff (that's just a bunch of noise to those folks). They want to hear the preacher, at something above 60dB... without a whole bunch of reflected sound. Church isn't a R&R show inna A frame building. Ain't I gettin through to you folks?