Power Questions

agedhorse · March 1, 2007

Yes, raise the standard. Nobody wins a race to the bottom!

milesdf · March 1, 2007

". It doesn't matter that it might be better than what else is out there, we all know there's plenty of crap. But the users of that crap aren't linking other people to pictures of it and passing it off as "Quality AC" in this forum. I really don't want this forum used as a conduit to a lawsuit, against HC/MF or TimmyP. As I stated, I'd much rather see him post gear that will pass an inspection. Isn't that what we're trying to do here...raise the standard?

Alright valid point with the modified power strip. If there were 15 amp breakers upstream I would disagree, but yeah they probablly were 20 amp breakers. As for the loop scenario, do you understand powercon? I don't think this is possible, without hardwiring something inncorrectly at least?

And alright again with the comment about his comment, valid point.

The lawsuit thing, ehhhhhhh, if that were really a concern then 25% of the stuff in the forum and this entire thread shouldn't exist. I think we have to trust common sense, people posting disclaimers, and the tos agreement you agreed to when you registered. Things can be dangerous, and fast. What about the speaker building thread? When someone suggests to use a saw to cut a piece of wood is that gonna be gone? Because there's a {censored}load of liability there.

And here's my major issue with this entire situation: No disrespect, but it's my understanding that you're a moderator. Isn't the moderators role to keep spam out and personal attacks down, enforcing the rules of the forum? By telling someone to delete thier link or you'll delete it for them, you've become judge, jury, and executioner here. The role of the moderator should be to prevent judge and jurors from killing each other. Sure in this situation alot of people agree that the link needs to go, or at least be prefixed alot. How about next week though, when its something that makes sense to everyone but a small group and the moderator? How can we trust someone with this kind of ability to keep our forums fair and unbalanced? I really don't see how we as a collaborating group of people can allow someone to have control like this without losing the quality we have expirienced so far. By deleting the link you effectively canceled any sort of discussion on the matter which is very informative to the 90% clueless audience, and this is unacceptable in my opinion. Our standard is already high, and its that way because we have a core group of members that know whats up and they're ready to argue the {censored} out of it to make sure it ends correctly. It's in this heated argument where the moderator is really neccessary, not to cancel the argument alltogether.

It's 5AM and I am beat, time for bed.

Craig Vecchione · March 1, 2007

Alright valid point with the modified power strip. If there were 15 amp breakers upstream I would disagree, but yeah they probablly were 20 amp breakers. As for the loop scenario, do you understand powercon? I don't think this is possible, without hardwiring something inncorrectly at least?

And alright again with the comment about his comment, valid point.

The lawsuit thing, ehhhhhhh, if that were really a concern then 25% of the stuff in the forum and this entire thread shouldn't exist. I think we have to trust common sense, people posting disclaimers, and the tos agreement you agreed to when you registered. Things can be dangerous, and fast. What about the speaker building thread? When someone suggests to use a saw to cut a piece of wood is that gonna be gone? Because there's a {censored}load of liability there.

And here's my major issue with this entire situation: No disrespect, but it's my understanding that you're a moderator. Isn't the moderators role to keep spam out and personal attacks down, enforcing the rules of the forum? By telling someone to delete thier link or you'll delete it for them, you've become judge, jury, and executioner here. The role of the moderator should be to prevent judge and jurors from killing each other. Sure in this situation alot of people agree that the link needs to go, or at least be prefixed alot. How about next week though, when its something that makes sense to everyone but a small group and the moderator? How can we trust someone with this kind of ability to keep our forums fair and unbalanced? I really don't see how we as a collaborating group of people can allow someone to have control like this without losing the quality we have expirienced so far. By deleting the link you effectively canceled any sort of discussion on the matter which is very informative to the 90% clueless audience, and this is unacceptable in my opinion. Our standard is already high, and its that way because we have a core group of members that know whats up and they're ready to argue the {censored} out of it to make sure it ends correctly. It's in this heated argument where the moderator is really neccessary, not to cancel the argument alltogether.

It's 5AM and I am beat, time for bed.

Regarding Powercon, my point was exactly what you implied...that someone can easily hardwire a cable incorrectly and cause a dangerous situation. The fact that Powercons are relatively rare and are not common knowledge is the danger here....everyone has seen Edison's all their life and knows the plug isn't supposed to be hot. Not so with Powercon. There are plenty of readers for whom this link could be the first time they've ever seen a Powercon.

I understand that 25% of what's posted in forums *could* be dangerous. But posting a link to an established website that proposes something that definitely *is* dangerous...skirting the Code and modifying UL-listed devices, is where we've got problems.

Regaring moderator issues; I have to be judge, jury and executioner. In this case, we're not talking about a minor issue over an opinion, but a safety issue. Note that it wasn't me that raised the safety issue, so I'm not alone in my opinion. A professional engineer with power systems experience found this. In many online forums there's very little allowed in terms of discussion of electrical issues, specifically because of the very real dangers of uninformed users taking even good advice incorrectly and someone getting hurt as a result. This *has* happened, and forums and individuals have been injured, and lawsuits have occured.

Posting a link to something that essentially says, "don't worry about the Code, this is cheap and *quality*", is a problem. Yes it's borderline and a judgement call, and right now I'm making that judgement call. The fact that I didn't immediately delete the post is specifically to invite discussion. I think you're the only person to express a view against it. My only motivation is safety and liability here. None of us want someone to be hurt by mistakes. It's not the intent that matters, as I appreciate fully that TimmyP is trying to be helpful. It's the possible outcome of following the posted advice that's a problem.

FWIW, even with 15amp breakers feeding the modified boxes, it's entirely possible that they could cause a problem...they've been modified, and we have no way of even guessing if they can safety handle a 15 amp load. The text states another connector strip is available, and one must remove the surge protection circuitry in order to fit the Powercons. Not good.

agedhorse · March 1, 2007

There's no way to tell if a branch circuit is protected with 15 amp or 20 amp OCP. That's why the NEMA 5-15 and 5-20 construction is designed for 20 amps, the keying is for compliance with specific instances where a single 20 amp receptacle is needed for a device requiring a 20 amp dedicated branch.

I believe, by the way, that the Power-Con is UL RECOGNIZED as a power inlet receptacle connector only, in the US. I do not believe it is recognized for use as a general power distribution device for the reason that you could accidently connect a source to a source.. yikes!. This is certainly a deal-breaker in my book.

Zeromus-X · March 1, 2007

I believe, by the way, that the Power-Con is UL RECOGNIZED as a power inlet receptacle connector only, in the US. I do not believe it is recognized for use as a general power distribution device for the reason that you could accidently connect a source to a source.. yikes!. This is certainly a deal-breaker in my book.

How could you possibly connect source to source with Powercons? They're keyed to not physically fit into the wrong socket. The only way would be to make a cable that had two "male" ends on it... which you could easily do with Edison plugs, too.

Craig Vecchione · March 1, 2007

How could you possibly connect source to source with Powercons? They're keyed to not physically fit into the wrong socket. The only way would be to make a cable that had two "male" ends on it... which you could easily do with Edison plugs, too.

It's the type of mistake that can happen when mixing systems. Install an Edison on one end, and a white Powercon on the other. Plug that into the existing box in the linked website, which was already plugged into a power source from the other side before the gig. Yes, it takes a series of mistakes, but the point I've been repeatedly making is that Edisons are well known and understood, Powercons are not, and accidents usually occur when a series of mistakes are made innocently.

Every McDonald's coffee cup states, "CAUTION: Hot coffee is Hot":D

Zeromus-X · March 1, 2007

I don't know... the exact same thing could happen if, instead of a Powercon connection, a 50' cable with a male Edison plug was on the other end and tossed across the stage. Either way, if someone just plugs it in without tracing what it's going to, there's going to be a problem!

Craig Vecchione · March 1, 2007

I don't know... the exact same thing could happen if, instead of a Powercon connection, a 50' cable with a male Edison plug was on the other end and tossed across the stage. Either way, if someone just plugs it in without tracing what it's going to, there's going to be a problem!

I'm not sure I follow...an Edison extension cord can't be plugged into anything but an Edison outlet. Anyone who's been in the US more than ten minutes knows what these look like and how they work. It's also intuitively obvious with Edisons and Twist-Locks that anything with prongs receives power, and anything with slots provides power. That's not the case with Powercon...if you don't know the color code, you're out of luck, and building cables late at night, even someone who knows can screw up. And all it then takes is someone on stage who doesn't know Powercon to plug in the bad cable. At best, there's a hot Edison plug, at worst, the device blazes up before OCP trips. Consider the ease of this happening if the builder is totally knew to Powercon and doesn't look to be sure he's done things right.

I understand and agree....again....that it's a long shot, but we've got a buildup of tolerances on that website that's a bit too scary, and we should not be associated with it.

DJ Swydez · March 1, 2007

There are plenty of readers for whom this link could be the first time they've ever seen a Powercon.

This is not the first time I have ever seen a Powercon. I've been to a couple of places where professional sound companies brought in thousands of dollars worth of sound equipment, lighting, staging, trussing, etc. and behind the scenes there was power run with powercons. So I have seen them before, but are not at all up to snuff with how they work, coding, colors, etc. and I see that your points are all valid.

And btw, idk about others, but I would never be stupid enough to attempt building a power system such as the one on TimmyP's website. When it gets to modifing prebuilt power stuff such as TimmyP did, I would never attempt as I am very much a new-bee to power and sound. Also, the "this is not up to code" disclaimer on his site also scared me away. However, thanks for pointing out how risky his design is.

And thanks for all the help guys! I am still stuck debating whether or not to build my own cables, as I see that I would probably not be saving a lot of money, using a lot of valuable time, and would not be able to get the plastic coating on the cables, as Don pointed out. However, I would be able to customize my cables and it would be a valuable learning experience. I am trying to weigh the pros and the cons here. And should I get cables with the 3-output powerblocks on the end? As far as I understand, I should not use household 6-plugs anymore, so would the powerblock ends make sense? I usually run 1 power cable solely for my QSC RMX-2450 and another power line for my desktop gear (lamp, laptop computer, mixer, etc.) and my lighting show (which is 1000 watts - 4 250 watt bulbs). If I need extra power, I bring a RMX-1450, which I throw on the lighting power line and move the desktop gear over to the 2450 power line to balance the power. Does this work? Could I still use household 6-plugs, or do those not work? Do I need the powerblock ends? What seems to be the best solution here... homemade cables or premade?

bigmike216 · March 2, 2007

Cables made yourself using SO cable will be of way higher quality than the type with the "plastic coating." SO cable has a thick rubber jacket.

Craig Vecchione · March 2, 2007

This is not the first time I have ever seen a Powercon. I've been to a couple of places where professional sound companies brought in thousands of dollars worth of sound equipment, lighting, staging, trussing, etc. and behind the scenes there was power run with powercons. So I have seen them before, but are not at all up to snuff with how they work, coding, colors, etc. and I see that your points are all valid.

And btw, idk about others, but I would never be stupid enough to attempt building a power system such as the one on TimmyP's website. When it gets to modifing prebuilt power stuff such as TimmyP did, I would never attempt as I am very much a new-bee to power and sound. Also, the "this is not up to code" disclaimer on his site also scared me away. However, thanks for pointing out how risky his design is.

And thanks for all the help guys! I am still stuck debating whether or not to build my own cables, as I see that I would probably not be saving a lot of money, using a lot of valuable time, and would not be able to get the plastic coating on the cables, as Don pointed out. However, I would be able to customize my cables and it would be a valuable learning experience. I am trying to weigh the pros and the cons here. And should I get cables with the 3-output powerblocks on the end? As far as I understand, I should not use household 6-plugs anymore, so would the powerblock ends make sense? I usually run 1 power cable solely for my QSC RMX-2450 and another power line for my desktop gear (lamp, laptop computer, mixer, etc.) and my lighting show (which is 1000 watts - 4 250 watt bulbs). If I need extra power, I bring a RMX-1450, which I throw on the lighting power line and move the desktop gear over to the 2450 power line to balance the power. Does this work? Could I still use household 6-plugs, or do those not work? Do I need the powerblock ends? What seems to be the best solution here... homemade cables or premade?

As a rule I would not use plastic power strips. Besides not being to Code for stage use, they are notoriously unreliable. There are some steel versions I've seen in HD and Lowes for example, by Belkin, that appear to have 'real' Edison receptacles. Even if the recep failed, it appears at least possible they could be replaced. But it's the lack of failure that is more important.

While not always a problem, sometimes putting sound gear on the same branch as lighting will get you some noise. Depends on the gear.

Quad boxes are the typical solution. You can build them on relatively short cable, say 25 feet, and add extensions as needed. Eventually you'll end up with a big heavy crate of cable, but don't be intimidated by the price. If you only can afford to build one, then build one, and use it with whatever else you have that may be orange but at least it works and is safe. In time you'll afford more and before you know it there's a huge crate of cable you can't hope to lit alone.....

DJ Swydez · March 2, 2007

Cables made yourself using SO cable will be of way higher quality than the type with the "plastic coating." SO cable has a thick rubber jacket.

I meant rubber... whoops on my part... sorry about that!

DJ Swydez · March 2, 2007

All materials I need to build/make my own cables can be found at HD/Lowes or the local hardware/electrical store, right? It seems building my own is the way to go... so I'll probably give it a try when I have a little extra time in the next couple weeks...

bigmike216 · March 2, 2007

That they can

agedhorse · March 2, 2007

Be sure that you get plugs and cordcaps that will accept the OD of the cable you buy. Many will NOT accept 12/3 SO as the strain reliefs are not designed for that type of cable. Also, the make-up of the cable has a conductor order so that one end will work out 1 to 1 with the correct colors in the same order as the terminals. If you use the wrong end of the cable (for the corresponding sex connector) two conductors will end up being crossed and it's tough to assemble well.

The cut-strip guide is generally molded into the plastic or is on the connector box. Follow this exactly or the jacket will not match the grip dimension.

boomerweps · March 2, 2007

If anybody decides to use the PowerCon system and miswires it in the manner several posters expect, they shouldn't be making ANY AC wiring to start with, even with edisons.

Modifying a UL listed device, in ANY manner, makes it not to the UL listing. THEN it depends on the local ordinances and how they adopt the NEC and UL listings for being "up to code". After that, all depends on the actual inspector, his qualifications and knowledge of the NEC and his own local ordinances.

Depending on the area, an inspector could and will shut you down if you are using anything other than SOOW/SEOOW cable on stage. MOST orange cables used are NOT SO and are easy to note. Any color than black and the inspector will beeline to it.

One of the posters on another board I frequent posted about an inspector citing his sound company for not having a proper strain relief on his power stageboxes, specifically a kellums type. Boy, those are easy, cheap, & common to find ready made, right? (Markertec, about $125 for 25 foot 14ga version quad box! It IS a nice cast aluminum box).

Point being, MOST self made power drops will NOT be up to the NEC for portable entertainment devices for many reasons, at least not until you get into big money for them.

Tim's modifications may make several items no longer in the UL listed state and may not follow the NEC rules. Unless you open up the wiring, you cannot say they are unsafe or even stupid, just probably not meeting NEC specs.

For the OP, HOSA brand sells black extension cords in several gauges and lengths. They also list a swiitched 15' quad box and a 6 outlet box, all in black. AFAIK, these are all UL listed (meaning safe), but not likely made from SOOW and likely not up to NEC standards for portable entertainment powering.

Since this is an MF related site with the broad range of experience that implies, maybe power cabling/distros should be a banned topic? Oops, gotta sell those power "conditioners". Hey, anybody got a towel for all this dripping sarcasm? Don't want anybody to slip on it.

Boomerweps

Craig Vecchione · March 2, 2007