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[preacherman672]

There's really no sense arguing SS454. They refuse to listen and they refuse to A-B anything. I've tried. I've made an across the board offer to anyone who desires it to A-B any speakers I have against what they have. No takers, only people who claim it's impossible.

And BTW while physics hasn't changed in the last hundred years, horn-loaded speaker design sure as heck has. The "horn loaded" designs from several decades ago aren't much more than scoops, with horn pathlengths in the 6 foot range. That isn't even comparable to modern design.

If you desire to follow only one or two "pros" on this board, by all means do it. You will have decent sound at decent prices. If you wish for something more you will have to search elsewhere.

Les

[lifeloverwg]

ss454, If you really have built that many previous speakers, I don't see any reason why you couldn't save some money building your own cabs as long as you have the tools, aren't trying save money building low budget quality and don't count your time into the cost equation. Building a basic trapezoid main cabinet just requires proper boxe sizing for the woofer, a quality horn and driver and an appropriate crossover. Parts Express has a variety of offerings as well as other sources out there. Here is one in my area who offers quality kits and whose products I have heard and can vouch for. http://assistanceaudio.com/09_kits.html While I have and like the two Tuba 24's I built, I generally agree that for most people a basic front loaded design makes more sense for small bar and club world where one or two single 18s will do. Folded horns really come into their own in groups of four or more, although in many small venues you can take advantage of wall or corner loading to help smooth out the horn response. For the average bar band, I think the bigger issue with a folded horn sub will be the lack of the harmonic distortion that most of us are used to hearing in low bass and sub frequencies. Folded horns sound different and many people don't like it.

Oh, and I thinkd you should build them out of baltic birch ply, why go to all that trouble and wind up with something that weighs more than it has to?

Gotta run, Winston.

[aw_dee_o]

I think that valid points are being made on both sides of the argument here. I think that many of the "regulars" here are quite "old school" and not real open to newer ideas or ways of thinking. Having said that, many of these "old schoolers" know what works due to having years of experience. The key is to find out how to stay in the saddle i.e. have years of riding experience, but not to get so comfortable in one given saddle at the expense of not knowing what other newer saddles might do for them. Keeping up with modern designs and technology can be a job in itself at times : )

As we all know, the three most desirable attributes in a speaker are wide bandwidth, small size and high efficiency. You can have any combo of two of those at any given time, but never all three at the same time. Even Bill Fitzmaurice, who has designed some very modern and quite compact horns, will agree with this. You have to sacrifice in at least one area to make the other two happen.

On top of that, a VERY good folded horn design is VERY time consuming and quite labourious to build. As such, they aren't worthwhile for most manufacturers to build or market, as their MSRP would have to be astronomical to cover all of the hidden costs involved. As such, one CAN build very "kick ass" folded horns that are considerably better than most of those on the market for a LOT less money, BUT they have to know what they are doing AND be willing to bust their ass and back when building them.

One of the biggest problems with folded horn designs are all of the internal reflections i.e. standing waves that build up inside of the horn throat itself. One can drastically reduce this problem, and at the same time smooth out the response, by radiusing all of the internal bends. I've been doing this for many years on a lot of different commercial designs with fabulous results. Some of these mods became so well known amongst horn enthusiasts that at one point in time, Klipsch used to have a list of my horn modifications listed on their "classic" folded horn internet forums.

While i am quite a fan of folded horns as far as efficiency goes, there are times when nothing will beat a direct radiator. No, they typically won't have the sensitivity or max spl, but they will offer better transient response and greater overall clarity and definition as compared to a traditionally designed and manufactured folded horn.

Quite honestly, i'm not the biggest fan of ported or slot loaded designs though. This is mostly due to their horrid impedance curves ( poor power transfer and control ) and the increased distortion / drastically reduced power handling below vent tuning. Like the aforementioned trade-off's with horns, these are the trade-off's associated with vents.

Having said that, vents do offer a LOT of "free" output due to dual resonances / points of oscillation. While the output in this region lacks definition and proper damping, most consumers ( and even many EE's / Audio "Pro's" ) can't tell the difference between quantity and quality when it comes down to it. As such, they look at the increased quantity of output via the use of venting as a blessing. In my book, it is somewhat of a mixed blessing and should be used accordingly.

With most small venues that are wider rather than longer, a split baffle line array will work better than ANY folded horn design. The split / splayed baffle improves horizontal dispersion for the width of the room and the line array helps to maintain more consistent spl's into the depth of the room. After all, high efficiency, high max spl's at 1 meter and wide bandwidth don't mean {censored} to the other 90% of the crowd that are off axis and away from the stage IF you don't have the proper radiation pattern of sound.

As to the comment about folded horns not having the harmonic distortion of a front loaded design, that's not necessarily true. I've seen tests that have shown folded horns to actually be higher in harmonic distortion than a front load. Obviously, there are a LOT of variables here, so comparing apples to oranges is more common than not.

As to the differences in sound, this has to do with the initial attack of the note and how our ear / brain processes the sound. With a direct radiator, the initial attack is supported by the in-sync decay of the harmonic overtones. With conventional folded horns, the harmonic overtones are typically delayed and somewhat stifled due to all of the standing waves in the non-radiused horn throat. This tends to make the sound both "drier" and less articulate, losing some of the naturalness of presentation. As previously mentioned, much of this can be overcome through proper design and build, but once again, this is more costly and time consuming. If someone wants to tackle such a project though, the rewards can be very beneficial and enjoyable in the long run.

Outside of that, i don't know how SS454 is planning on using one stereo amp to run bi-amped mains, especially if running subs. This would require AT LEAST three channels of amplification at the minimum, let alone the five or six channels that would work best. With all of the back and forth responses that i've seen here, i never saw SS545 address that part of the equation. Sean

[agedhorse]

Preacherman - Horn theory was indeed very very well understood decades ago and the horn designs of 30-40 years ago are just as well designed (and in some cases better) as those of todays. I think your comment about "not being much more than scoops" is inaccurate and misleading to those trying to learn.

Electrovoice, JBL and Westetn Electric all had very thoroughly designed and executed folded horn LF sections, though given the era and the fact that they were designed for cinema and arena/stadium primarily, the last octave was not important at all. What was important was the 50Hz on up, given the limitations of amplifier size. Altec was also big in horns (A2/4/7), but for the most part they chose exponential flair horns and not folded. The bandwidth for their designs were typically 50Hz - 500 (or 800) Hz, meaning that a folded design was not appropriate.

What has changed is the driver technology. This has allowed other options in horn design to be possible. It's not that the old guys didn't understand, it's because the transducer technology was not available. Especially the adhesives, insulating materials and bobbin materials.

Sadly, the DIY community reacts once again with "blind rage" at the possibility that they may not have the "ultimate design", and that perhaps looking back in history some of those old farts that designed these horns knew a hell of a lot more about horn theory than they give them credit for. Most of those old guys developed the very theory and understood it extremely well. It's something that IMO deserves a little respect.

[ss454]

Outside of that, i don't know how SS454 is planning on using one stereo amp to run bi-amped mains, especially if running subs. This would require AT LEAST three channels of amplification at the minimum, let alone the five or six channels that would work best. With all of the back and forth responses that i've seen here, i never saw SS545 address that part of the equation. Sean

 

 

 

 

I never said I was planning on bi-amping anything. I said I wasn't running passive crossovers inside the box but that doesn't mean I'm bi-amping.

 

I've actually decided that this isn't going to be worth my time. I'll stick to going the DIY route for home and car audio and leave the prosound to asian toddlers making $.06/hr.

[ss454]

Well call me a sweatshop worker...he just called me and wouldn't let me back out of this project. HAHAHA! I talked him out of the mains for now but he's really wanting the projection and clarity from a good horn. Apparently he went and checked some out and said he loved the sound and said I have to build the monitors ASAP. I told him I'd do 2 first and let him check them out and move forward from there. I'm also just going to go ahead with birch since wood cost is a fraction of the total and it is more durable in the long run. I never denied that at all but I thought I could save some money for him in the long run and make it work with MDF.

[Gregidon]

I never said I was planning on bi-amping anything. I said I wasn't running passive crossovers inside the box but that doesn't mean I'm bi-amping. *snip*

 

 

Are you just running one speaker in the monitors then? Like a single 10? I'm confused....

[soul-x]

 

. I'm also just going to go ahead with birch since wood cost is a fraction of the total and it is more durable in the long run. I never denied that at all but I thought I could save some money for him in the long run and make it work with MDF.

 

 

For a birch enclosure of any type loaded with Eminence Beta, you will find that the wood will be a significant portion of the cost.

 

Be ready to lift your jaw off the floor when you hear what current pricing is for a sheet of void-free 3/4" (19 mm) 13-ply Baltic birch.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

There's really no sense arguing SS454. They refuse to listen and they refuse to A-B anything. I've tried. I've made an across the board offer to anyone who desires it to A-B any speakers I have against what they have. No takers, only people who claim it's impossible. And BTW while physics hasn't changed in the last hundred years, horn-loaded speaker design sure as heck has. The "horn loaded" designs from several decades ago aren't much more than scoops, with horn pathlengths in the 6 foot range. That isn't even comparable to modern design. If you desire to follow only one or two "pros" on this board, by all means do it. You will have decent sound at decent prices. If you wish for something more you will have to search elsewhere. Les

 

 

Maybe you have no takers because the claims are excessive, and because I did indeed A/B the pair I BUILT with the JBL's Bill thinks a T-24 can blow away. You do remember this, right? The T-24's that, despite your never laying eyes on, I "screwed up" the construction of? The ones that must be leaky, even though I can hold 0.5psi for a half hour in the chamber? Surely you must have forgotten this lengthy discussion, because there's no other reason you'd disparage folks here, is there?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Well call me a sweatshop worker...he just called me and wouldn't let me back out of this project. HAHAHA! I talked him out of the mains for now but he's really wanting the projection and clarity from a good horn. Apparently he went and checked some out and said he loved the sound and said I have to build the monitors ASAP. I told him I'd do 2 first and let him check them out and move forward from there. I'm also just going to go ahead with birch since wood cost is a fraction of the total and it is more durable in the long run. I never denied that at all but I thought I could save some money for him in the long run and make it work with MDF.

 

 

The birch will definitely be a better choice for anything that's going to be moved, even a little. I've done a lot of work with MDF and ply, and MDF is definitely only suitable for permanent indoor use. And the weight of MDF is simply ridiculous.

 

However, the cost differential between MDF and ply...especially true "baltic birch" will be substantial.

[lifeloverwg]

For a birch enclosure of any type loaded with Eminence Beta, you will find that the wood will be a significant portion of the cost. Be ready to lift your jaw off the floor when you hear what current pricing is for a sheet of void-free 3/4" (19 mm) 13-ply Baltic birch.

 

 

I keep hearing this high price warning like upwards of $50-$55 a sheet so much that last fall I asked my buddy, who's account I buy mine on, to double check that I was paying him back the right amount. He called up the supplier and told me, yeah, $30 sheet. Not exactly cheap mind you but for what it is it seems very resonable.

 

Winston

[agedhorse]

I keep hearing this high price warning like upwards of $50-$55 a sheet so much that last fall I asked my buddy, who's account I buy mine on, to double check that I was paying him back the right amount. He called up the supplier and told me, yeah, $30 sheet. Not exactly cheap mind you but for what it is it seems very resonable. Winston

 

 

That's a heck of a deal... makes using it over MDF a total no-brainer.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Not exactly cheap mind you but for what it is it seems very resonable.

 

That is frikkin cheap. I pay approx. $6 per sheet for a 4 x 9ft sheet of CARDBOARD.

[lifeloverwg]

Is that for a 5 x 5 sheet or 4 x 8? That is frikkin cheap. I pay approx. $6 per sheet for a 4 x 9ft sheet of CARDBOARD.

They are 5 x 5. I don't know why it is so much cheaper here than I hear about else where. While it is a wholesale supply house, (Sierra Forest Products) my buddy is a relatively small time cabinet builder so it's not like he is buying anything by the truckload. On the other hand, he is the type that takes the guys down at the high end butcher shop a case of good beer for Christmas which more than pays off through the rest of the year, so he could be getting better pricing than some just because he's a really nice guy with the gift of gab and he's been dealing with them for a long time. All I know for sure is I like being listed as a buyer on the account.

Winston
PS, His wife gets good deals on my Jewelry.

[agedhorse]

is that 7 or 9 ply?

[lifeloverwg]

is that 7 or 9 ply?

 

 

The 3/4" is 13 ply. Or at least what they call 13 ply. It actually has twelve alternating plys inside of two thinner outer layers that add up to another ply.

 

Winston

[agedhorse]

Should be 11 and 2 ply, that's a heck of a deal.

[Jess]

I don't get it?....I run 2 JBL JRX Powered subs in my rig and have done for the last 3 years, 3-4 nights a week. These cabs are carpeted and are made from MDF. They don't sound "UNBELIEVABLE" BUT THEY DON'T SOUND LIKE {censored} EITHER, and they get hauled in and out of a truck night after night and they still look brand new (disregarding the odd ciggy burn here and there lol). My point is that a well covered MDF box "CAN" and "DOES" last on the road.

Jess.

[agedhorse]

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Moisture damage and cracked joints are a common problem. Yours lasted but that doesn't mean all do or will.

[Jess]

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. Moisture damage and cracked joints are a common problem. Yours lasted but that doesn't mean all do or will.

I guess it comes down to how well the box is constructed?.. I can remember reading a review on the JRX MDF subs before purchasing them and the artical went on to explain that they {JBL) commented on the very facts about MDF boxes your talking about and how they went to great lengths to avoid "cracked joints" by using some super duper glue? also the MDF is treated will a sealant to protect against moisture damage..
Jess.

[agedhorse]

Whatever. Your experience is different than mine.

[Ray Tremblay]

If MDF is so spectacular for cabinet construction, then how come JBL only uses it in their "BOTTOM OF THE LINE" JRX series?

I can't believe this is still being argued.

[agedhorse]

Because it's CHEAP!

[Ray Tremblay]

Because it's CHEAP!

BINGO!

[Jess]

Yeah it's cheap, but who gives a {censored}?...I mean really??. It does the job and it does it quite well. Is it as good as ply cabs?.. Maybe not, but if it sounds good and its cheaper to boot then where is the crime in that?.

Jess.