Having an issue with Crown XTI amp. Please help, URGENT!!

[Gregidon]

Aw Dee O, you have a way with words, especially twisting them to make it sound like i said something i didn't. My point is that the article does not go into detail about how he measures anything. He says he uses a scope to watch for distortion, woo whoo! I wish i could turn in reports like that: In conclusion i used a multimeter to show that the unit gives better performance. I understand where he is coming from, trust me. The concept is pretty simple.

Anyway, getting back onto the origional question i had for you. You were talking about how crown amps had design flaws. You have not mentioned anything that is even remotely close to backing up this claim. You keep dodging the question by bringing up other problems or saying they have "scrawny-ass caps". Come on man, just tell us what it is exactly that you think is wrong with these amps. Stop hiding behind the "my posts disappeared" excuse. Also, don't point me toward that link again, all that proves to me is that increasing power supply capacitance increases power output a little. That is not a design flaw, that's a design choice. Show me where crown made a design decision that is either dangerious to the consumer (catches fire etc) or where they don't live up their claims. I don't care if you can increase the power output 200% by adding some more caps, that's not really the point. It doesn't really matter as long as Crown didn't lie about their ratings initially.

Whooo, anyway... also, please don't insult me by twisting my words anymore, that's just annoying.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

... After commenting about those, the general direction of this thread leaned towards power amps with "anemic" power supplies in general. Don Boomer even chimes in to say that some of his comments were based on "scrawny" power supplies in amps, not necessarily just Crown products. This is why i referenced and linked to the mods as performed on a Crest amp. Given that Crest's are not considered to be "generic" by any means, i used this as a point to demonstrate to Agedhorse that increase power supply capacity directly correlates with increased output capacity on a power amp. As most of you know, Agedhorse had called "bull{censored}" on that idea...

 

 

It looks more as if Agedhorse raised the bull{censored} flag regarding your claims about Crown amps, which were very generalized, but would have to exclude the XTi based on your first statement.

 

So what are the similarly rated amps? Compared with which Crown amps? Are the 'similarly rated' amps also similarly priced?

 

Considering the sheer volume of words you write in each post, and the certainty with which you make claims I'd expect more detail when these claims are made, so we can understand exactly what it is you're trying to state.

[aw_dee_o]

I'll make things simple here. Take a similarly rated and appr equivalently priced Peavey amp and put it head to head against a competing Crown amp and see which one does better driving a real world load.

It should be noted that i'm not employed or affiliated with Peavey, nor do i work for ANYONE in the "pro sound" business. I picked Peavey simply because i know that most of their products are phenomenal bargains for the money and reasonably well designed. One could have just as easily substituted QSC or Crest for Peavey. That is, what i'm saying is that Crown's reputation is based on their amplifier performance from MANY, MANY years ago. Most of their newer products are "weak".

For that matter, a similarly rated used Adcom or Parasound home amp will kick the {censored} out of a Crown and sound a helluva lot better doing it. Then again, the Adcom's were partially designed by Nelson Pass and the Parasound's by John Curl, both amplifier engineering geniuses. Sean

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I'll make things simple here. Take a similarly rated and appr equivalently priced Peavey amp and put it head to head against a competing Crown amp and see which one does better driving a real world load. It should be noted that i'm not employed or affiliated with Peavey, nor do i work for ANYONE in the "pro sound" business. I picked Peavey simply because i know that most of their products are phenomenal bargains for the money and reasonably well designed. One could have just as easily substituted QSC or Crest for Peavey. That is, what i'm saying is that Crown's reputation is based on their amplifier performance from MANY, MANY years ago. Most of their newer products are "weak". For that matter, a similarly rated used Adcom or Parasound home amp will kick the {censored} out of a Crown and sound a helluva lot better doing it. Then again, the Adcom's were partially designed by Nelson Pass and the Parasound's by John Curl, both amplifier engineering geniuses. Sean >

 

 

 

I'll make things simple; you stated you had problems with Crowns clipping. Which Crowns? And which specific amps did you compare these Crowns against?

[Gregidon]

You keep saying things like this. However, you don't have any evidence to back it up except that you say so. Show me how they are designed worse, or show me some measurements. In short I want some EVIDENCE to support your claims.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Obviously, you've got to take the time to form the caps and let things settle in ( 2 - 3 days of thermal cycling ), but after that, i don't think that you'll ever doubt the validity of a comment like this again.

 

Lemme see if I understand this correctly: You're advocating that capacitors need to be "broken in" or "conditioned" to sound good? I generally learn something new every day (and probably forget something every day). This is new to me... do tell more. If so, then have tests been performed that prove the conditioning is of the capacitors and not the listener's ears? (since what you become accustomed to listening to sounds better than what you are not accustomed to listening to)

 

I understand about guitar stings and guitar speakers being "broken in" to sound "right".

[agedhorse]

Well slap my ass and call me Sally. Breaking in filter caps is yet another one of those things we engineers just can't seem to get our heads around. Man, we must be dumb-ass sons nof bitches. It's amazing we can design anything these days. I wonder how the amps aw_dee_o has designd sound and spec. out?

[aw_dee_o]

If caps didn't perform differently i.e. have different charge and loss rates ( transient response ), thermal ratings, levels of microphony, levels of distortion, levels of linearity vs frequency, etc... why would manufacturers bother to make SOOOO many different variations of the same value? All of this stuff adds up to their sonic signature. That signature can change over time as the cap is stressed either electrically, thermally or mechanically ( depending on type ).

Steve Bench http://members.aol.com/sbench101/#thy has some detailed information on his website about all of this, but at this time, that section of his website is down. I'm going to send him an email to see if / when it will be back up. Sean

[Craig Vecchione]

 

If caps didn't perform differently i.e. have different charge and loss rates ( transient response ), thermal ratings, levels of microphony, levels of distortion, levels of linearity vs frequency, etc... why would manufacturers bother to make SOOOO many different variations of the same value? All of this stuff adds up to their sonic signature. That signature can change over time as the cap is stressed either electrically, thermally or mechanically ( depending on type ). Steve Bench http://members.aol.com/sbench101/#thy has some detailed information on his website about all of this, but at this time, that section of his website is down. I'm going to send him an email to see if / when it will be back up. Sean >

 

 

You had time to post this, but not to answer my last question (which Crown amps you have 'problems' with). The old moving target game, eh? Now you're on to claim, what? That caps in the *power supply* can make the amp sound better? Soon we'll be on to elevating speaker cables off the floor, custom wooden control knobs, and "sonic panels" that are nothing more than $200 slabs of pine?

[W. M. Hellinger]

That caps in the *power supply* can make the amp sound better?

Well, maybe this helps to explain why audiophile type amplifiers aren't more common in SR applications... since it seems common in SR that the rig only gets "loud" enough for many bands when the amps are into clip. I suspect that bigger, better caps would defeat this.

[Zeromus-X]

Back on the original topic a bit, I had a question about the XTi. It seems that when you're running it in crossover mode, and it's set to "Y" the inputs, only the left volume knob does anything. I'm used to running through a separate crossover so I can run my highs volume and lows volume separately. Anyone know if there's a way to do this with the XTi? Both cabinets are working fine, it's just that one knob controls both of their levels and my highs cab is WAY more efficient.

[aw_dee_o]

If you would have read my posts rather than just concentrate on lambasting me, you would have seen that i've mentioned the original XLS series several times, the Com-Tech's and a specific Power Base model. The Power Base was such a P.O.S. that i put it out of my mind instantaneously.

Other than that, i appologize to those interested in Crown's XTI's for helping to derail this thread in major fashion. Sean

[DJ Swydez]

Back on the original topic a bit, I had a question about the XTi. It seems that when you're running it in crossover mode, and it's set to "Y" the inputs, only the left volume knob does anything. I'm used to running through a separate crossover so I can run my highs volume and lows volume separately. Anyone know if there's a way to do this with the XTi? Both cabinets are working fine, it's just that one knob controls both of their levels and my highs cab is WAY more efficient.

I believe you just need to take it off of parallel input mode and run the amp in stereo... that should allow you to send a different signal into each channel and allow you to independently control each channel...

[Craig Vecchione]

 

If you would have read my posts rather than just concentrate on lambasting me, you would have seen that i've mentioned the original XLS series several times, the Com-Tech's and a specific Power Base model. The Power Base was such a P.O.S. that i put it out of my mind instantaneously. Other than that, i appologize to those interested in Crown's XTI's for helping to derail this thread in major fashion. Sean >

 

 

You may want to consider using the "quote" button to avoid confusion.

 

You may also consider that I'm asking you legitimate questions, not "lambasting" you. You've had a lot to say, the Crown amp issue was pretty vague, and you are jumping about from issue to issue, which may have something to do with the pushback you're getting here.

 

You have indeed mentioned the XLS, Power Base and Com-Tech, but not within the context of them being the 'problem' amps mentioned originally. Try to understand that I read "power supply problems" and "Crown" in a Pro Sound forum, and without models being mentioned, my thoughts are Macro-tech and K, which are standard touring amps that have NO problem in the supply area. That's the problem when one makes generalized statements...there's plenty of room for misinterpretation.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Back on the original topic a bit, I had a question about the XTi. It seems that when you're running it in crossover mode, and it's set to "Y" the inputs, only the left volume knob does anything. I'm used to running through a separate crossover so I can run my highs volume and lows volume separately. Anyone know if there's a way to do this with the XTi? Both cabinets are working fine, it's just that one knob controls both of their levels and my highs cab is WAY more efficient.

 

 

A I've mentioned in another thread, I found the manual to be vague and confusing. There's no explanation of the attenuator controls relating to the various input and xover config. I'd assume in Xover mode you have to Y the inputs, but I'd epxect to be able to control levels somehow. I would not expect the attenuators to do this, but there should be some way. Perhaps the software network has more controls, but I haven't had a chance to explore that.

[Gregidon]

I read through the manual a little. It seems that only the channel 1 input is looked at. It seems that only the channel 1 control does anything. I assume you can change the relative volumes of the high and low amp through software, i.e. a laptop. You're right though, the manual is very confusing.
-greg-

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I read through the manual a little. It seems that only the channel 1 input is looked at. It seems that only the channel 1 control does anything. I assume you can change the relative volumes of the high and low amp through software, i.e. a laptop. You're right though, the manual is very confusing. -greg-

 

 

So far, this could be the worst implementation of DSP I've seen yet. If the crossover output levels have to be controlled via software, I see little point in even having a front-panel interface. Hopefully I'm just missing something that's not spelled out in the manual.

[Gregidon]

Yeah, me too. Keep in mind my thoughts come from reading through that part of the manual. I haven't actually played with the amp. I could be wrong. Just keep that in mind

[preacherman672]

So far, this could be the worst implementation of DSP I've seen yet. If the crossover output levels have to be controlled via software, I see little point in even having a front-panel interface. Hopefully I'm just missing something that's not spelled out in the manual.

 

 

 

I don't think you're missing anything. To my knowledge only the very bacic controls of the DSP can be acessed via the front panel. All other aspects of the DSP can only be acessed via the free software packagage from Crown.

 

Not real useful IMO for live sound. Much more useful in some installations where front panel access to DSP is not only not necessary, but not really desired either.

 

Les

[agedhorse]

Well, maybe this helps to explain why audiophile type amplifiers aren't more common in SR applications...

 

No Mark, it's because we are considered "dumb as a brick" in the audiophile circles.

[Zeromus-X]

I'll have my laptop at the gig tomorrow and I'm going to download the software and see what happens when I "tinker". I will say the amp had absolutely no problem pushing my ridiculously-oversized monitor rig (the Meyer 2x15 + Avatar 2x10 rig) pushing hip-hop style 808 notes all damn night. The level adjustment is just a pretty big concern!

[W. M. Hellinger]

No Mark, it's because we are considered "dumb as a brick" in the audiophile circles.

And that's too bad, because audiophiles seem to be most concerned with authentically recreating what SR folks create with their audiopiles in real time.

Today... in my shop... there was a group of folks... discussing my hotrod project... the subject turned to concourse car restoration... something about recreating inspection marks on bolts. Geeze... gimme a break. I'd just as soon build something new... and I have no desire to go to that length to artificially recreate something as authentically as possible.

Maybe that's cause I'm a musician and manufacture (and not a restorer). I have a hard time with reliving the past... regardless of how authentic it can be reproduced. To me, if it isn't live, then it's dead.

If "we're" so stupid, how is it that we create what more enlightened folks strive to recreate?