Members oldrock Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 My kids band did a labor day event and it was at a big place with dedicated pa and their own sound guy. So I meet the guy before the gig to introduce myself and give him a heads up about what gear the boys band will be using and how many mics. He tells me they use shure sm57s to mic amps and sm58s to mic vocals which the boys are familar with so I say great. tell him they will need instrument mics for 2 guitar amps, di for the bass amp and 4 vocal mics with one on a boom for drummer. He says no problem. I leave him a printed set list that includes who sings lead and backing vocals on each song. Next we did a 10min sound check of amps, drums and vocal mics. Sound guy says all set. First number starts and sound is all messed up. Feedback on the vocal mics and the bass is overpowering the mix. Takes half the song till sound guy levels everything out. Song 2-4 go pretty smooth and boys all seem to be having fun. Bout half way thru song 5 and the lead guitar starts sqwaking really bad. I look over at sound booth and the sound guy was not even listening! I wait about a minute and it is still doing it so I walk over to the sound booth and tell the guy the marshall amp mic is feeding back. He says "no it is the guitar". I reply could be but hasn't ever done it before so ask if he could check the gain on the mic. He grabs the headphones and actually put them on. Then he adjust the gain on that mic and problem solved. Shame is it took him so long to make a 5 second tweak to the pa. Next song has the drummer doing backing vocals and guess what? No sound at all. At least the sound guy recognizes that and fiddles around with it but no backing vocals for the entire song. The boys finish their set but needless to say we were all disappointed with the sound quality. So my question for the more seasonsed guys here is: does that sort of thing happen often? I felt it would not be smart to complain about the sound so I did the polite thing and just thinked the ownership for giving the boys the opportunity and shook hands. Inside I was thinking I wish I had brought my own pa to that gig. Sure my system wasn't nearly as loud but at least everything would have worked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marc G Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 pfffft....sounds par for the course for me....... {censored} happens..... especially if your dealing with an engineer that doesn't know the band or it's material... my band is fortunate that our engineer is an old friend PLUS our singer/guitarist's cousin, and it doens't hurt he's top notch engineer who has worked with lots of international acts... so we get him to tag along to all our shows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 Unfortunatly, that is common. I've actually found that some of those problems are solved by slipping the sound guy some cash and ask him to help out. Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 5, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 1. Yes, this kind of thing happens. 2. It happens mostly when there is no time for the band to actually have a sound check before the gig, with the venue empty, playing a song at the performance level. 3. You know what your band should sound like. The visiting sound guy does not. 4. You did exactly the right thing in not commenting to the sound guy, but letting him know when there was an obvious specific problem. Chances are any comments would go in one ear and out the other, or were issues like (2) above that are beyond his control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 So my question for the more seasonsed guys here is: does that sort of thing happen often? I felt it would not be smart to complain about the sound so I did the polite thing and just thinked the ownership for giving the boys the opportunity and shook hands. Inside I was thinking I wish I had brought my own pa to that gig. Sure my system wasn't nearly as loud but at least everything would have worked! Unfortunately, yes it does happen and will again. Whether it will qualify as "happening often" remains to be seen although in my limited experience it has happened to us more often at lower profile events so if they continue to move up the music food chain you should experience fewer examples. Being polite is always a good policy and I have never gone out of my way to let a promoter or provider know how bad I thought things were handled unless asked and even then tread carefully as you may well run into them again. While I can understand your frustration and wish to have brought your own system, after you do actually provide for a number of events and have to deal on the fly with unanticipated difficulties or conflicting realities you may well become more forgiving or at least understand how many different views there are on how something should have been done. It's always easy to judge from outside the hotseat. That being said, if you know the bands material and learn your way around a console, there isn't any good reason why you couldn't mix them yourself and take one factor out of the equation. I have only had providers have problems with me running the board on a few occasions. The risk of course is that when the inevitable happens and things don't go well, now it's you people will be looking at.... Be sure to talk it over with the band and use it as a learning experience for all involved. Worse things can and will happen in the future. Learning how to deal with difficulties and still perform is part of becoming a professional band. Odds are you are one of only a few who even noticed there was a problem. Good luck and keep on keepin on, Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumstix Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 Yeah this happens to us a lot too. We just played at a nice theatre with a very nice sound system, Renkus set up. Dont know about FOH but the monitor system was all messed up. Very hard for me as the drummer. We run into problems all the time with different sound guys/systems. We just live with it. We try to use our own system as much as possible but sometimes we just have to use the provided stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldrock Posted September 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 sounds like it happens alot then. I have no problem doing small gigs of up to 100 with my system but it wasn't really powerful enough to handle that venue so we had to use the house system. It just seemed the sound guy only cared that it was loud and not concerned too much if it was blended properly. On the positive side, some of the other older bands that were playing later were very complimentary of the boys music so I guess we take this as another good learning experience and keep on plugging away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 I'd take both sides of the fence on this one. Obviously things go wrong from time to time. Most of what you described seems innocent enough and yet seemingly avoidable by a reasonable soundperson too. Loud and bad has no excuses. a half song mix isn't unreasonable for an average sound person. I'd like to think that in about 16 bars I could handle the biggest balance issues, especially with a small band like your son's. The band has to shoulder some responsibility in helping their objective too. It sounds like you got a line check. Often bands completely whack out when it comes time to play; they get excited, they play hard, turn up knobs on instruments, etc. Singing is not talking. Often I see soundmen adjust monitors with the "testing 1 2 3" routine and then the singing is 5 x louder and therefor gain levels are way too hot. A guitar amp mic feeding back is a quandry to me, especially part way through a set..I don't think I've experienced such a thing. Unless it was substantially put in monitor wedges?? singing drummers are a challenge. No excuse for missing the players part in this instance though. But I've seen engineers(myself included) mute (or pull back the fader)the track because of the horrible SM58 overhead effect until needed and miss a surprise vocal part. this doesn't sound like a horrible gig experience to me, just average. On long days, festival things, be aware that often the sound engineer has seen many acts, often without even a bathroom break:D There's no excuse for feedback and missing cues. as a note to bands providing stage plots, input lists and song lists with singer cue notes: I've sure seen some horrible stage plots that were nearly impossible to figure out, ridiculous input lists and song/set lists that are so strange they won't help a soundman whatsoever. Players names in conjuntion with the songs they sing, along with names for background vocals are fine for you..nearly worthless for the engineer. list song name and player who sings...but not by player name. Example: Sweet Home Alabama-lead vocals tall guitar dark hair(or some such quick visual reference), harmonies: all others.Stairway to heaven- lead vocals drummer ..and please make easy to understand stage plots with no referring to icons to understand what is what. rant over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 As everyone has stated, unless you're doing tours with the same FOH/monitor engineers on the same system all the time, you're going to run into problems. I've played a lot of shows on sub-par systems run by dudes that don't know what they're doing. Nowadays I see it far less but especially when you're a fresh young act, you're just going to have to put up with the territory. Low-ball gigs are generally fairly whack so probably you're just going to have to get used to it. Actually, I'd say that your experience was a fairly positive one. At that level, any show where there's a dedicated PA and sound guy is a good day for me, no matter how {censored}ty it is. Getting to a show only to have them tell me we needed to provide our own PA is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 It all depends on the level of the sound guy you are working with. Generally as you move up the food chain, things get a lot better pretty quickly, though sometimes even at the bottom you can get a great engineer or at the top a bad one. Best approach is damage control, cut back a bit on monitor levels, do a basic approach to avoid creating more problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 There are sound guys. Then there are sound engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smitty0069 Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 Witesol did a good job of putting this in perspective IMO. How often have you done a line check only to have everything much hotter than that when the show fires up? Taking a 1/2 of a song to get a handle back on things is not unreasonable though if the band has kicked it in high gear from line/sound check to performance. Another thing to consider at a festival of this nature is the amount of other guys like you who are giving their input on everything. Some guys are great & you probabaly fit into that category yourself, but sometimes it becomes mind-numbing after awhile & a good # of people are clueless. Having said that I usually try to include the guys who are cool by offering to let them get their hands on the faders if it's a band they normally mix & let them do their thing only offering advice if needed or asked.I'm amazed at the amount of times things are worse, yet letting them get their hands involved makes them happy & they think it's great. On the flip side.........I've seen alot of sound guys who infact don't give a {censored}, have bad attitudes, and are as clueless as anyone. Sadly this could very well be the case in your instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 Since this was and still is a good learning experience, I'd like to add some more input for your son's band and any others following along. While I do mostly mix just my wife's band, I also mix weekly at our Church and have mixed other groups both on our PA and elsewhere. Even with my limited experience I can tell you that some groups are easier to mix than others. The most important feature is still talent and confidence. Tentative garbage in just equals louder tentative garbage out. Practice, practice and practice some more. If the kids can rock out without having to think too hard about it, it will show and they can start learning how to perform a song not just play it. It's pretty easy to throw together a basic good mix when everybody knows how to sing in tune, work a mic and has quality tones coming out of their quality instrument in tempo. As soon as you lose any of those factors the difficulties begin. Also some groups and individuals make things hard on themselves for any or all of the following. Being late and unprepared is a good way to guarantee problems. Do you have all the needed tools? Our lead singer likes to get up close and personal with her mic so she brings her own. Plus, she spent time trying different ones out to get a good match for her voice. Your lead guitarist wouldn't play with just any old guitar provided, vocals can benefit as well. (make sure it actually is a quality mic with good pattern control if going down that road.) Extra strings, sticks and cords? What if an amp goes out? We carry a pod just in case. Not knowing how to have a productive soundcheck is another issue and one I am still working with our lead guitarist about. It does me little good to get a mumbled "check, check 1, 2" when you are really going to belt it out at the top of your lungs right out of the gate. Don't get me started about our singing drummer who talks louder than she sings. The only blessing there is that at least she mutes herself for the songs she doesn't sing on. Especially when all we're getting is a line check, (which is often) give me your hardest hit power cord not a couple of noodly little finger picks. Tuning, I can't believe how many groups I see wasting precious stage time at small festivals tuning. Unless good between song patter is part of your act, tune before hand and bring multiple guitars if needed. Our rythmn guitarist brings three differently tuned guitars for just that reason. Sure if temperatures are changing rapidly she still needs to tune some, but it helps keep down time to a minimum.Another thing good bands do is basicly mix themselves. Learning when not to play or to play more softly is an important skill. No matter what kind of set list notes you give FOH dude, he/she isn't going to catch all the nuances like you could or like the players themselves could. Lead volume pedals for instance can be your friend. If you have keyboard, please, please even out the patches. Teach them how to communicate what they want in their monitor and that they are there for what they can't already hear not some full studio mix. They should ask for the basics of what they want before starting and then know how to comunicate during as well. Point to the player and then up or down. Be sure to then look at the monitor mixer whether dedicated or FOH and nod or something when it is right. Don't give me a thumbs up as some people use that for louder. A simple nod with a smile or the OK signal is better. If you need vocals adjusted, point to the player and then your mouth followed by up or down. Another thing to watch out for is the bigger stage. You should not spread out too much just because you have the space, still stay close enough to easily communicate and interact together too keep your groove going. Acknowledge the crowd, they want to cheer for you and see you do well. Lift your head and look at people with a smile on your face, this is fun remember. They call it show business, so give em a show. Thank the stage crew and promoter even if things don't go perfectly. Be ready to perform, act professionally and you will quickly be miles ahead of most local bands out there. That's it for now, Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldrock Posted September 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 I will just add that when I went to point out the feedback on the marshall amp, the sound guy was playing a game on the computer in the sound booth if that gives you any idea of his level of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 I will just add that when I went to point out the feedback on the marshall amp, the sound guy was playing a game on the computer in the sound booth if that gives you any idea of his level of effort. When I see other sound guys doing this type of crap it really pisses me off. Guys like that make it much more difficult for those of us that come into a gig and actually pay attention and care about the sound. There was a large gig here in town a while back that I was kind of in on. It was an outdoor venue, about 4k people. I was going to put it a bid for the gig but they found someone with very nice gear that would do it for some amazing price that I couldn't touch. Welllll, some very good friends of mine were the opening act. They guy gets them started and then completely leaves the sound booth. The guitar is wayyyy too low in the mix and the vocals are barely there, it's all bass and kick drum. Where's the sound guy?? Walking around backstage....... I was livid... I talked to the guy that put the show on and let him know that he did not get his money's worth. I told him I was tempted to step back there and fix everything while the guy was 100 yards away jerking around on the stage. He said "if ti happens again, do it" It's like being a mechanic (which I still am part time), once someone has a mechanic do them wrong, all mechanics are crooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2007 Members Share Posted September 5, 2007 A good engineer can do more than one thing at a time, but it takes a lot of experience and the ability to always be listening, even if appearing not to be. It also depends on how good the band manages their dynamics, and the quality of the arrangements. Some arrangements naturally let the players sit into a natural mix. Leaving the booth and wandering back stage (or trolling for chicks) is not acceptable though, except in an emergency. I have read many books this way, never had any issue nor have I ever received any complaints about my mixes. Sure helps make the time pass when the bands are boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members InACanProductions Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 A good engineer can do more than one thing at a time, but it takes a lot of experience and the ability to always be listening, even if appearing not to be. It also depends on how good the band manages their dynamics, and the quality of the arrangements. Some arrangements naturally let the players sit into a natural mix. Leaving the booth and wandering back stage (or trolling for chicks) is not acceptable though, except in an emergency.I have read many books this way, never had any issue nor have I ever received any complaints about my mixes. Sure helps make the time pass when the bands are boring. I agree, except...I run sound for a lot of gigs where I am also the producer/promoter/stage manager and my attention is needed else where for a minute or two here and there. I usually leave an assistant at the board but if there's no one else I have to leave the controls un-manned for a few. I also get a lot of very inexpierenced musicians who end up having some problem or other with an amp, or guitar, or cable or something and frantically wave for me to come fix the issue. I guess that could count as an "emergency" but it's not really my emergency it's the band's. I won't walk away from the console if I'm not sure that I've got a good general mix where everything can be heard, nothing is clipping, etc. If I miss a solo bump while I'm dealing with my head of security about some issue it sucks but not the end of the world, especially at the level that these bands are at. When it's my event, I wear more than one hat, and in those cases I am the boss and I've already made my decisions about what compromises I am comfortable making, and my business partner agrees with me. If I'm running a show with a bigger headliner I'll make sure that any business matters that would take me away from the board are handled before the headliner's set, or decisions are deligated to my partner. Generally I don't pay myself extra for handling sound at my own events, we factor in to our expenses for the wear and tear of the gear but not to pay me a salery. I concider myself a very attentive, and critical sound guy. I give 100% when I am hired to be at the board because that's what I'm getting paid for. I get hired for almost exclusively multiband shows with amature all age bands and there is never more than 15 minutes for change over (more often it's only 10 minutes), and I still try to provide the best mix possible. When I don't know the material I watch carefully to catch as many cues as possible, and usually by the end of the first song I've got the mix exactly where I want it minus some back up singer who didn't sing in the first song, or something like that since clearly we're talking about no sound checks for anyone but the first band. Even at the low end of the scale there's no real excuse for not living up to the responsibility of the job. As a house engineer there's even less excuse since most likely set up and break down is minimal and the gear probably isn't yours so off the bat you're dealing with a lot less stress than if you had to lug your rig and load into a venue and you only have a 2am load out to look forward to. I guess it can be stressful carrying that chip on your shoulder though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 I would consider dealing with a band problem or a venue management problem part of the "emergency duties" if that's what is expected of you. If you were wandering back stage to get laid or have a smoke that wouldn't be what I would consider part of the job expectation. Everything must be considered in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 I find myself no more than a measure or two away from the console at any time while listening to the mix with the exception of the occasional having to run up to the amp rack or to the stage for a quick meeting with one of the members. If I have to leave the console for any reason, I have someone (my stage manager) stand in for the time I'm gone. When I mix for someone else's band, I try to watch more intently. Especially the guitar player(s). I usually know when a solo is coming mostly due to knowing the songs. Who doesn't know most radio (over)played pop music? So it's just a matter of which guitar player is doing what solo. Not too hard to figure out. As for balances; I guess it's been so long doing sound that it seemingly comes almost naturally to me now. My stage manager and I do the line checks before anyone is in the venue, then when the band comes on it takes no time at all to get all the levels balanced within minutes. Normally I start the night after line check with all the faders all the way down. When the band is ready to play, I bring them up to about -5 and go from there. The driverack is pretty much setup already, but ocassionally I will need to tweak the EQ a little depending on the room we're in. Most of the night after that is spent on efx and individual solos. I will go to see a band from time to time and be amused by the apparant lack of attention the sound "guy" (no girls around here doing sound that I know of) gives to the band. That's why my wife hates to see a different band with me; I criticize too much, she says. She also says that when we go to see a band, that I should not listen to them, I should listen to her and others in the group with us. There are a couple of engineers who are good, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldrock Posted September 6, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 thanks for the good healthy dose of reality check on this guys. I think part of the problem was the boys in the band range in age from 14-16 so they might not have gotten the attention and effort that the other bands did that day. I guess that is probably human nature to assume kids are not going to be as serious about it and so the tendency is for the sound guy to relax a bit with them. No real harm was done and although I would have worked about 5 times harder to get the mix balanced, I am also 2 of the band members Dad so what else would you expect? Wearing my Dad hat for a minute, I just wanted the boys to get presented in the best possible light since there were some much more experienced bands there that day. Was prety funny when we were unloading gear. Here I was backing up our explorer and next to me was a tour bus! We stage our full setup in about a 10x10 space while another group filled up a 10x10 with its lighting and other effects. Still, even a gig where everything didn't go as hoped is a good learning experience for the boys. It was also very good for me since Mrs Oldrock was at the event. After seeing how the sound went, she said she thought I should go ahead and get the upgrades to our pa A couple more gigs like that and I may really have a nice pa setup we can use HAHAHA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 That's funny, oldrock. As far as your kids are concerned. You are their Dad and their manager/soundman. So, talk to the provider about your mixing your boys' band. Simple as that. Be polite like, "Howdy! I'm the soundman for these kids. Nice rig you got. Where's the reverb send and delay send? Which monitor is which? And start looking like YOU know what YOU'RE doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldrock Posted September 6, 2007 Author Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 That's funny, oldrock. As far as your kids are concerned. You are their Dad and their manager/soundman. So, talk to the provider about your mixing your boys' band. Simple as that. Be polite like, "Howdy! I'm the soundman for these kids. Nice rig you got. Where's the reverb send and delay send? Which monitor is which? And start looking like YOU know what YOU'RE doing. To be totally honest, I was kinda intimidated by the sound booth. I have done my share of gigging albeit 20+ years ago. However those were simpler times. Everything we used back in those stone ages had needles and the mixers were typically 16 channels without alot of bells and whistles. That sound board the guy was using looked kinda like the one in your avatar and probably had 36 channels and racks full of other crapola that would have me lost. I only know the basic PA stuff. I have a pretty good ear for setting volume levels and know how to tweak an eq based on what I hear. What I don't know is all the other items that modern systems use. I am trying to pick up as much as I can about them though. Maybe after a year or so of gigging with the boys, I will be confident enough that I will just ask if I can run it at events like we just did. For now, I just have to hope the sound guy gives the boys a good mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 You will notice I was only using about 20 of them. Get familiar with one of them, and you know them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumstix Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 One thing that you may want to think about is providing a headset mic for the singing drummer. Singing drummers can always bring problems to a sound system. Drummers like to have monitors loud and if they sing they will want to hear there vocals over the drums. Feedback from monitors, kick drum mic's, snare mic, overheads you name it and it can start. A good headset that is good about only picking up the vocals in front of it will help you and other sound guy's out. Not a bad idea to get all the youngsters some quality mic's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members windbag Posted September 6, 2007 Members Share Posted September 6, 2007 Leaving the booth and wandering back stage (or trolling for chicks) is not acceptable though, except in an emergency. So, what's the difference between trolling for chicks and EMERGENCY trolling for chicks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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