Sax Transposition question

[Gone_Acoustic]

I'm a guitar/bass player and I understand what it means that a horn is in Bb or Eb.

 

I'm thinking about trying to learn saxophone, but I don't read music. I've started several times to try reading on guitar, on bass, on piano, even drums, but I don't have the discipline to stick with it.

 

My question: if i'll be learning on my own, say on an alto sax, and not learning to read music, just to play notes/scales/phrases, could I just learn the fingering "in C" - meaning that instead of thinking of the Alto-sax "C" as "C" I'll actually think of it as Eb, or is this counter-productive?

 

Are tunes in "rock keys" (C, A, E) difficult for horns because of transposition or also difficult to finger/play?

 

For example: if I want to play some simple rhythmic riffs from Rock Around the Clock (in A?) is it going to be much harder to PLAY (not read) than in Bb or whatever horn-friendly key?

[Mike M]

I'm a saxophonist/music teacher:

Guitar/Bass Key Tenor sax Alto/Bari

C = D A

E = F# C#

A = B F#

 

Although I play in all 12 keys, the easiest ones for sax to learn (fingerings, etc.)

are:

Guitar/Bass Key Tenor sax Alto/Bari

Bb = C G

F = G D

Eb = F C

Mike M

[Gone_Acoustic]

I see, thanks, Mike.

 

So, if my interest in the sax is "superficial" (at least at first) - if I want to figure out just a few tunes, be able to play some backing phrases... is that doable?

 

I wonder if my being a guitarist (and being used to the standard C scale) will be a distraction? I'll have to transpose every note - I don't play "by ear", so I'll always have the guitar fretboard in my head. My head... already hurts

[Gone_Acoustic]

MikeM, another question: I've read that the alto sax is typically the "1st" instrument (to begin on) and they're easier to get cheap, but is it physically/musically harder (more difficult) to begin on a tenor (for someone with no horn experience whatsoever)? Tenor just seems ... cooler?

[sunburstbasser]

Tenors are larger, cost more, and I'd wager you'd need to use more air to play them properly. Otherwise, if you want one go for it. I prefer the sound of tenors.

[Rowka]

I learned sax and reading notation at the same time starting in 4th grade.

I took what I knew about music and applied it to learning how to play bass.

I can read bass clef, but I'm terribly slow at reading and playing bass. However, I can jam on bass.

 

Only recently have I started trying to jam on the sax (bari). I am constantly visualizing the bass fretboard in my head and dropping the minor 3rd to figure out what notes I want to play on the sax. Like thinking in English, translating to Spanish, then speaking Spanish.

 

It's slow going but I'm getting better and faster everyday.

 

Sooner or later I hope to be able to "think" sax.

[Alan1123]

Hey There! Long time since I've visited or posted....

 

As a sax(Bari-Tenor-Alto-Soprano)/oboist/guitarist/keyboardist . .

 

Get a tenor if thats what you want. It does take a bit more air - but I presume you're not in 4th grade(!). And - lower notes are more forgiving with intonation issues. And in Rock Band environment - definately cooler.

 

Also - a tenor is in Bb, which is a whole step off from concert key. This makes the mental gymnastics a bit easier (If yer guitar plays C - Tenor plays D).

 

I would strongly recommend that you learn using the "correct" notes. As you know, alto/bari is in Eb and Tenor/Soprano is in Bb. Both keys are fingered the same. If you decide to learn tenor sax by calling D a C, then you'll be screwed if ya decide to pick up a Bari (which is really cool looking!).

 

Even though learning to read music is chore - its sorta necessary to play a woodwind instrument.

 

An additional observation - A lot of guitar stuff is in the key of E - which translates into F# (on tenor). Kind of a sucky key to play in. In my case - I started playing tenor in a Rock band - so I got real comfortable in that key. What was weird was, a guy sat in with us once, and said "hey, we should play something in Bb - so it's be easy for you". I had a hell of time figuring out the key of C. . . . heh.

[Gone_Acoustic]

well, i tried a few tenors at the store today - i totally dig the sound. actually the hardest thing is holding it (heavy, my right thumb is beat!). i was even surprised at the low prices on some used tenors (though they needed work, so i'm not buying yet).

 

I also do like the idea of it being in Bb (vs. the alto in Eb).

 

although, we had a trial practice the other night with the trumpet and the new alto sax and I got quite adapted to telling them their notes (transposed from concert C) - very simple to do on guitar - If I want them to play my "C" (standard) - the Bb trumpet is a tone higher, so I tell them "D" and the Eb alto sax is a fourth down from the Bb trumpet - I tell them "A" - they were even impressed with how fast I was doing it, but it's all thanks to the guitar.

 

Still, I'd rather do Bb.

 

I'm really excited, but also a bit scared of buying an instrument with problems and incurring hidden expenses. and I can't afford one now, so i'll have to ask around if I can borrow a sax. and keep watching craigslist.

 

What are some of the first scales to learn? If we speak in "sax C" (whether it's Bb or Eb), obviously the C-major is one, but which pentatonic, minor and blues scales? On piano and guitar you'd go with relative minor (and blues and pentatonic), same on sax?

 

Thanks!

[Gone_Acoustic]

and BTW, although I find baritone saxophones extremely cool... that's really not in my future - there was one in a glass case at SamAsh for $2000 and that's... CHEAP. "Cheap", but a LOT of money

[Alan1123]

Gone Acoustic:

 

Music is Music (obvious statement of the day). Practice the same type scales you've been using. I'd work on Major scales (and look at written music) mostly to make sure you have the notes nailed in yer head. Then, what ever turns you on and works in your environment!

 

As far as an instrument goes - part of the deal with sax is developing a relationship with an instrument tech. In my area, it is not too outrageous to have a pad or two changed, and the horn tweaked (around 50 bucks). A serious overhaul could exceed the purchase price of the instrument.

 

Not sure where you're located. I'd find a store with inhouse repair techs, pick up a used Name Brand horn from the store or craigslist. Stay away from anything made in China (not a bad policy for any purchase! IMHO). Old masters like Conn, King (or my favorite) Martin are good values. Selmers are the gold standard - and are priced accordingly. Newer Yamahas ain't bad.

 

Good Luck!

[Gone_Acoustic]

thanks, Alan.

 

RE: scales - I meant WHICH scales are easier to learn, i.e. "C Major is easier than Eb Major", etc. Like on piano you might learn a C or a G scale before you learn A major. Or on bass certain scales might take advantage of open strings for easier fingerings, etc. But then on piano certain scales might be easier to memorize because of the few black keys in them - possibly easier to execute than the C major, but I don't really play piano.

 

Maybe it's the same on the sax? C - easiest, G- almost easiest, etc?

[danrothmusic]

I "learned" sax (as in, I learned it briefly, but haven't played in a while) on a bari with no extra difficulty, so go with the Tenor if it's what you want (I personally like Tenor the best)

[Gone_Acoustic]

i've pretty much decided on a tenor - the most important factors being easier intonation, Bb and cool tone. If I got an alto for free, I'd play it until I can get a tenor, but I'll just keep looking and get a tenor.

[Alan1123]

Gone Acoustic -

 

As far as easist scales?

 

heh

 

ya's got ta do em all.

 

OK - Sure - start with the C scale.

Then do chromatic.

 

Then I'd work out the stink'n F# scale - since that corresponds to stink'n guitarists that play in E.

 

Really, tho - As much as you may not like it. Go for some lessons, and learn to read music.

 

Of course - you may have that natural ear for it. Just play alot, and especially if your friends are hip to you learning. Since I presume you know how a guitar solo should sound within a certain chord structure - just follow your ears.

 

It also helps to listen to sax players within your type of music. That can start a whole 'nother thread.

[Notes_Norton]

I learned sax and to read music at an early age.

 

Here's my advice. Learn the notes as they are on the sax. The advantage is that if you decide to switch between alto and tenor (or soprano) the fingerings for your notes will be the same.

 

I can play in all keys, but since I grew up in guitar bands, playing in E, A, and G concert (F#, B and A on my tenor and even more sharps on my alto) playing in the sharp keys are easier for me to play in than the flat keys.

 

It's all what you get used to.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Gone_Acoustic]

I got a used bundy tenor about a week ago and been learning the fingerings as they are meant. i am finding it fairly easy to transpose in my mind, better yet, i make up already transposed scales with fingerings, like B-blues if I want to play in A-blues standard, etc.

 

thanks everyone! humbling, but tons of fun!

[gogo]

 

well, i tried a few tenors at the store today - ---- actually the hardest thing is holding it (heavy, my right thumb is beat!).

 

 

Were you using a strap? Definitely needed.

[Gone_Acoustic]

yeah, a strap.. it should be called "neck injurer" lol. I need a harness. but yes, even with a strap, from lack of skill (so far) the fingers and thumbs tend to tire out , i think it's getting better - now my embouchure gets tired before my hands.

 

Well, I started out learning the A-blues scale (B-blues on the tenor), because for our level that gets used often, whether it's A-minor, A major or C major. Also gonna learn the F# blues (corresponding to standard E). I am just figuring that since blues scales fit both major and minor keys, i'll get the most mileage out of them at first. but i am also trying to just memorize where everything is chromatically.

 

i gotta say, this instrument amazes me at how ergonomically it's designed. yes, it's plenty difficult, but neither guitar nor piano are this ergonomic. I tried remembering how tough the first chords on guitar were, the calluses, the pain, the badly muted strings... it's really no different - it gets fun soon enough (unlike violin or cello or possibly trumpet).