Members drenwick Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 OK - I kinda understand the cardioid pattern of the Sen e835 vocal mics we're using and I understand that the monitor should be placed directly in front of the mic (or behind I guess is more accurate) but I'm having trouble understanding the 3 dimensional aspect of it - as in: 1. where exactly is the dead spot in the pattern (the cleavage in the heart shaped diagram) as your looking at the mic - i.e. say the mic is in the stand parallel to the floor - is the dead spot above it 12 o'clock? behind it like where the body of the mic points? (Does this question make sense?) 2. is that how the mic should be positioned (parallel to the floor), or angled up a bit or what? 3. how far in front of the mic stands should I place my angled floor monitors (JBL JRX112s)? 4. finally - what is the general rule for optimum placement of my two main speakers (JBL MR925s)? Man - do I feel stupid... Be gentle... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ray Tremblay Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 If it's cardioid, the dead spot is 180 degrees from where you sing into the mic. Point the back of the mic (where the cord plugs in) directly at the monitor for maximum feedback rejection. In theory, this should be ideal, but you'll still need to be aware of room reflections that can cause feedback regardless of the mics correct orientation to the floor wedges. Sometimes you just have to experiment a little with an angle that works. Usually this won't be an issue with dynamic mics, but can often be a big problem with condensers. Feedback is one of those things that can be very circumstantial. Room size, shape, surface materials, orientation of stage, monitors, mains, mics, etc, etc, all play into the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 1. where exactly is the dead spot in the pattern (the cleavage in the heart shaped diagram) as your looking at the mic - i.e. say the mic is in the stand parallel to the floor - is the dead spot above it 12 o'clock? behind it like where the body of the mic points? (Does this question make sense?) Imagine the mic was a hollow tube ... just sight right down it. 2. is that how the mic should be positioned (parallel to the floor), or angled up a bit or what? Perpendicular to the face (design axis) of the speaker 3. how far in front of the mic stands should I place my angled floor monitors (JBL JRX112s)? For feedback concerns the answer is ... as far away as possible. In the real world it needs to go where it needs to go. 4. finally - what is the general rule for optimum placement of my two main speakers (JBL MR925s)? The speakers need to be pointed at the audience and nowhere but the audience. For feedback you generally want to be behind the line formed by the two faces of the speakers. This is an oversimplification as there will be lobes in spots that you can't avoid. For feedback concerns you are trying to keep the mic from hearing the speakers ... mains and monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 Maybe I'm picking nit's here, but I usually place the mic in front of the HF driver. The reason being that the frequencies that produce feedback during a performance are generally produced by the horn. I also like to have the monitor about 3 feet in front of the face of the mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Steve Edwards Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 The monitor directly in front of mic is the usual placement. Most monitors have two angles so you can place the monitor as close as possible. The further away you place it, the louder it has to be to be the same volume standing at the microphone. I am not a fan of Hot Spots but some lower volume performers use them because they decrease the total db's on stage. Get them closer play them quieter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 if it's not a really loud demanding stage volume situation I find that sometimes not directly off axis allows someone to hear themselves better. Slightly from one side is often easier to hear than dead on in between ones ears. But, the advice above is a good start. do you have an EQ for your monitors drenwick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drenwick Posted July 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 if it's not a really loud demanding stage volume situation I find that sometimes not directly off axis allows someone to hear themselves better. Slightly from one side is often easier to hear than dead on in between ones ears. But, the advice above is a good start.do you have an EQ for your monitors drenwick? I sure do - just got a Peavey Q215 w/FLS for the monitors (I know the 31 band is preferable but this was my decision based on rack space, and I got a sweet deal on a used one - hopefully the sound quality won't suffer too much with the wider cuts). I'm hoping I can get away with just my mixer's EQ for the mains (for sound shaping) as we've never had FOH feedback problems. Thanks for the feedback on feedback folks! (sorry) I do have an Audix OM2 (hypercardioid) that I'm planning on using on a boom for my occasional backing vocals from behind the drums. I've seen the difference in the pattern - any comments on placement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 3, 2008 Members Share Posted July 3, 2008 some HyperC mics have the null off axis 60 degrees or so. Most of the placement of monitors won't matter that much in normal situations. try locating a wedge for a singing drummer, sometimes it's 90 degrees on axis:eek: your 15 band EQ is just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted July 4, 2008 Members Share Posted July 4, 2008 Someone ( and I can't remember who) stated that the distance between the mic and monitor should be in the neighborhood of 1.5 times the distance of the mic to the floor. I have no idea where they got that but I tried it and it worked great. The only problem is that you're looking at about 6 feet! Most stages around here don't allow for it. The other factor is how loud the monitors will go with the power you have. You also have to take into account the horn dimensions. Also that particular stage is pretty dead as far as sound reflections Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted July 4, 2008 Members Share Posted July 4, 2008 Someone ( and I can't remember who) stated that the distance between the mic and monitor should be in the neighborhood of 1.5 times the distance of the mic to the floor. I have no idea where they got that... They pulled it out of their ass! It simply needs to be where it needs to be. If you move it closer you can turn it down (think headphones) ... if you move it further away you'll need to turn it up (think sidefills). What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 4, 2008 Members Share Posted July 4, 2008 sounds weird but the shape and position of one's face makes some difference as to how things reflect back into a mic. Also, singers/players with hats can be troublesome at times. Proximate walls behind the mics have to be factored in. All of it matters...and doesn't both I've not gotten along with the OM2 mic tone for some reason, but there's nothing wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted July 4, 2008 Members Share Posted July 4, 2008 Here's an interactive demo showing mic patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 4, 2008 Members Share Posted July 4, 2008 if it's not a really loud demanding stage volume situation I find that sometimes not directly off axis allows someone to hear themselves better. Slightly from one side is often easier to hear than dead on in between ones ears. But, the advice above is a good start. Absolutely. This is why I would rather double-box each front line positions with smaller wedges rather than a single bigger wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 5, 2008 Members Share Posted July 5, 2008 Absolutely. This is why I would rather double-box each front line positions with smaller wedges rather than a single bigger wedge. yea, I double wedge the lead vocal with two SRX712s which are super low profile. Nice having the speakon pass thru too. funny story was when I worked with David Pack, Ambrosia frontman. with the stage setup of BGVs and all the various stuffs I set up a pair of wedges slightly to his right and had them really zinging out nice, proud of myself so when he walked in for soundcheck I'd be the hero. He proceeed to tell me all that stuff would have to be repositioned. I was like "what"...turns out he's completely deaf on that side. An amazing friggen singer, that guy is. I work with him again in a few weeks...with monitors on one side:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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