Guitar mix question when running sound from stage

[Shovelhead]

I'm in a 4-piece + frontman rock band, doing a mix of classic rock and more modern rock. There are keys and guitar.

 

We run our sound from the stage. Mains are JBL MRX tops and subs, and QSC power. The mixer is a Mackie 16ch.

 

I need to boost my guitar solos above the rest of the band. Of course, the real answer would be to get the band to play with more dynamics, but it is rock after all...

 

I've tried to pound the front of the amp with various boost pedals, but they don't offer enough headroom, and the frequency response of the amp tends to narrow and compress when you sledgehammer the first gain stage.

 

My choices are:

 

1) Modify my Bogner to have a variable boost installed, controlled by a footswitch. Bogner does this, but it's expensive (150 + 200 for shipping) and there would be a month of using a substitute amp to get through the gigs. There's also a risk that something could happen to my prized amp in transit.

 

2) Use a 2nd E609 and put a latching microphone mute switch on my pedalboard. When I hit the switch, the 2nd channel in the board would be engaged, with solo-specific EQ and effects. This would cost about 170 bucks for another E609 and a ProCo switch.

 

Any suggestions?

[DaBender]

The volume knob on my guitar always worked for me.

[Rezrover]

Add a second mic to the cab and keep it on mute until the solos, then turn it on.

[Shovelhead]

 

The volume knob on my guitar always worked for me.

 

 

I ripped mine off and threw it away.

[Bears]

This may sound a little hair brained but.....

Run a clean stomp box preamp in the channel insert where your guitar mic is. Or maybe a line level volume pedal like for a keyboard. Adjust it for the amount of boost & tone change that you want and make sure you won't clip the channel when you step on it. That should work as long as your not trying to get too much gain. I'm sure you could use it for 6db or so.

[Gregidon]

This may sound a little hair brained but..... Run a clean stomp box preamp in the channel insert where your guitar mic is. Or maybe a line level volume pedal like for a keyboard. Adjust it for the amount of boost & tone change that you want and make sure you won't clip the channel when you step on it. That should work as long as your not trying to get too much gain. I'm sure you could use it for 6db or so.

 

+1. Add the gain in the "effects loop" of the amp.

[ShizzelDizzel]

Yes, put a clean boost in the f/x loop.... such as MXR micro amp or an EQ pedal or even a volume pedal. The loop has to be series as well. Putting pedals out in front of your amp will mostly add gain not volume.

[DaBender]

Just as a general FYI, Koch amps have an adjustable boost built into their amps. Nice feature.

[Shovelhead]

 

Just as a general FYI, Koch amps have an adjustable boost built into their amps. Nice feature.

 

 

That is a nice feature. My Bogner Shiva has a boost, but it's a fixed boost (it's an older version). The most common complaint was that it wasn't enough of a boost. The newer Shivas have a variable boost with an independent volume knob. The boost volume can go as high as the amp is capable of. Very handy for dialing in solos in a dense mix.

[tlbonehead]

I'm in a 4-piece + frontman rock band, doing a mix of classic rock and more modern rock. There are keys and guitar. We run our sound from the stage. Mains are JBL MRX tops and subs, and QSC power. The mixer is a Mackie 16ch. I need to boost my guitar solos above the rest of the band. Of course, the real answer would be to get the band to play with more dynamics, but it is rock after all... I've tried to pound the front of the amp with various boost pedals, but they don't offer enough headroom, and the frequency response of the amp tends to narrow and compress when you sledgehammer the first gain stage. My choices are: 1) Modify my Bogner to have a variable boost installed, controlled by a footswitch. Bogner does this, but it's expensive (150 + 200 for shipping) and there would be a month of using a substitute amp to get through the gigs. There's also a risk that something could happen to my prized amp in transit. 2) Use a 2nd E609 and put a latching microphone mute switch on my pedalboard. When I hit the switch, the 2nd channel in the board would be engaged, with solo-specific EQ and effects. This would cost about 170 bucks for another E609 and a ProCo switch. Any suggestions?

Put your clean boost in the loop. It'll come after your preamp saturation and will add actual volume unless your power section is also seriously compressed. (doubtful)

[tlbonehead]

Just as a general FYI, Koch amps have an adjustable boost built into their amps. Nice feature.

My Mesa does, but not my Koch.

[tlbonehead]

I'm in a 4-piece + frontman rock band, doing a mix of classic rock and more modern rock. There are keys and guitar. We run our sound from the stage. Mains are JBL MRX tops and subs, and QSC power. The mixer is a Mackie 16ch. I need to boost my guitar solos above the rest of the band. Of course, the real answer would be to get the band to play with more dynamics, but it is rock after all... I've tried to pound the front of the amp with various boost pedals, but they don't offer enough headroom, and the frequency response of the amp tends to narrow and compress when you sledgehammer the first gain stage. My choices are: 1) Modify my Bogner to have a variable boost installed, controlled by a footswitch. Bogner does this, but it's expensive (150 + 200 for shipping) and there would be a month of using a substitute amp to get through the gigs. There's also a risk that something could happen to my prized amp in transit. 2) Use a 2nd E609 and put a latching microphone mute switch on my pedalboard. When I hit the switch, the 2nd channel in the board would be engaged, with solo-specific EQ and effects. This would cost about 170 bucks for another E609 and a ProCo switch. Any suggestions?

Another thing you can easily do since you are running sound from stage is add an EQ pedal or Micro-amp in the insert of your guitar mixer channel. It won't give you an onstage boost but it will through the mains.

[tlbonehead]

I ripped mine off and threw it away.

Man, I couldn't gig w/o volume and tone knobs on my guitars. I usually use my volume to adjust my gain and the tone to control the amount of "cut".

[tlbonehead]

The volume knob on my guitar always worked for me.

just adds saturation if you are using a hot rhythm tone.

[Shovelhead]

 

Man, I couldn't gig w/o volume and tone knobs on my guitars. I usually use my volume to adjust my gain and the tone to control the amount of "cut".

 

 

I'm kidding. But in reality, I use my volume knob at between 7 and 10. I rarely use the tone knob because the Shiva is a more mid-heavy rather than bright amp.

 

You're right tho, the volume adds more saturation rather than volume when the rhythm parts are pretty hot.

 

I thought about using a boost in the loop, and I also considered using a cut (a volume pedal) in the loop too. Either would likely work pretty well.

[GCDEF]

I just put a volume pedal in my effects loop. Turn it down a little for most of your playing, then turn it up when you want to stand out. Works great.

[Shovelhead]

 

I just put a volume pedal in my effects loop. Turn it down a little for most of your playing, then turn it up when you want to stand out. Works great.

 

 

 

Do you find that it's any more noisy because you're adding another 10 to 15 ft of cable each way?

[Unalaska]

Yeah, this isn't a PA issue, it's a guitar gain issue. If I had a nickle for everytime someone hit the "distortion" to do a solo and thier volume went down! It's a gain stage issue.

[Bryan316]

Ever considered a reverse-gain boost? In your effects loop, add a volume CUT. You set up and do your sound check at full volume without the cut engaged. That's how loud you want your solos.

 

Then when you're playing rhythm, you engage the volume cut. Either make it a fixed amount or adjustable. A simple potentiometer with footswitch might be enough to make an unpowered simple fix.

 

My guitarists set their rigs up so everything's midi controlled. Their lead channels are full 127 for volume, but all other channels set around 90 or 100. My lead guitarist recently made all his channels cut down to 70, and he LOVES how much solo boost it now gives him. We can hear his solos lickety split.

[Shovelhead]

 

Ever considered a reverse-gain boost? In your effects loop, add a volume CUT. You set up and do your sound check at full volume without the cut engaged. That's how loud you want your solos. Then when you're playing rhythm, you engage the volume cut. Either make it a fixed amount or adjustable. A simple potentiometer with footswitch might be enough to make an unpowered simple fix. My guitarists set their rigs up so everything's midi controlled. Their lead channels are full 127 for volume, but all other channels set around 90 or 100. My lead guitarist recently made all his channels cut down to 70, and he LOVES how much solo boost it now gives him. We can hear his solos lickety split.

 

 

One option I've considered is to build a switch box with a pot in it to cut to a predetermined level for rhythm stuff. The only problem I can see with that is the potential for noise (popping) when the switch is engaged. I've tried a volume pedal in the loop, and it seems to work just fine. The ideal way would be to have it built right into the amp, but this might be a good work-around.

[Shovelhead]

 

Yeah, this isn't a PA issue, it's a guitar gain issue. If I had a nickle for everytime someone hit the "distortion" to do a solo and thier volume went down! It's a gain stage issue.

 

 

It's a volume issue. I understand gain staging, and both my rhythm tone and lead tone sound exactly how I want them. Ideally, we'd all have a soundman sitting in front of the band who knew where all the solos are. But, in most cases we don't.

 

Whether or not the issue should be addressed at the amp or at the mixer is the question. As with most problems, there are multiple solutions. I'm just looking for the one that fits my needs the best.

[GCDEF]

 

Do you find that it's any more noisy because you're adding another 10 to 15 ft of cable each way?

 

 

No. In the loop it runs low impedance and doesn't pick up any increased noise. Lots of people run lots of stuff in effects loops without adverse effects from the added cable. FWIW, I run 24' each way.

[georgestrings]

 

It's a volume issue. I understand gain staging, and both my rhythm tone and lead tone sound exactly how I want them. Ideally, we'd all have a soundman sitting in front of the band who knew where all the solos are. But, in most cases we don't. Whether or not the issue should be addressed at the amp or at the mixer is the question. As with most problems, there are multiple solutions. I'm just looking for the one that fits my needs the best.

 

 

 

 

IMO, it should be addressed at the amp - after all, how do you guys make it work during rehearsal??? Also, if you gig enough places, you'll realize the value of taking that responsibility out of the hands of random soundguys... If you manage this issue that the amp, it'll come throught the FOH properly, too... Most good guitarists I know have learned how to "punch in" to, and back out of their leads...

 

 

- georgestrings

[Crownman]

Last time I needed something like this I just bought a Boss EQ pedal and put it in the FX loop. Didn't tough the EQ freqs just bumped the output. Worked great.

[guitarplayer888]

There is no technical solution to bandmates without ears. Seriously, if they are not willing to dial down the dynamics for 20 seconds while you take a solo you have a serious band issue. In anything other than heavy metal or stadium level rigs, the band has to adjust dynamics and listen to everyone else or its going to sound like one bug mush.

 

My band sometimes plays a little game in practice. WE take a song and assign an "intensity %" to each section. There has to be at least one section at 30% and there can only be one section at 100%. Everything is in the middle somewhere. WE try to really exaggerate the differences between sections. For example:

 

into 30%

verse 1 50%

chorus 1 75%

verse 2 50%

Chorus 2 75%

bridge 60%

solo (40% for band, 90% for solo gtr)

chorus 3 75%

outro chorus 100% (big ending for last song in set)

 

Its really tough at first and everyone substitutes intensity for volume. Timing also sucks in the beginning. But after about 10 times you get much better in listening and dynamics and the songs play so much better live.