Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Anybody ever build or use one of these? http://www.whiskey-creek.net/pwrdist.html Around here it is more common to have a bare breaker (or bare wires ) than a range plug available for power . used to even carry a couple of common 40A beakers in case I found a panel with space but no breaker. My old "distro" is a quad box wired to some 10/4 cable I got for free with the other end "bare". I suppose I should "upgrade" that before someone sees it and starts foaming at the mouth ? I might be needing to use it on some outdoor gigs so I suppose I can find a six breaker sub-panel and load it with 20A GFI's and bolt six quad boxes to it? Anybody out there make/sell something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 We build our own sized to the application. The one below offers four separate 15 amp circuits. Included are the common 30 amp two pole circuit breakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 We build our own sized to the application. The one below offers four separate 15 amp circuits. Included are the common 30 amp two pole circuit breakers.Very nice! Just curious why you didn't go with 20A breakers? I think I want to go with GFI's as I will be doing outdoor events but they don't make them in double pole like the regular ones . BTW how long a cord did you put on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Went with 15's because 4 of them match the 60 amps the panel is rated for. There is 15' of feeder cable that travels in the box. My tie-in cable is 10' and I have an additional 100' cable when required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 There is 15' of feeder cable that travels in the box. My tie-in cable is 10' and I have an additional 100' cable when required. Are those 30A twistlocks you used? My genny uses one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Are you sure that isn't a 60A 220V panel in which case you can take 60A out of each "side"? Not with the feeder and connector that's being used. Before building a distro, I would suggest that you study up on electrical safety theory and codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Here's one of our smaller distros: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Here's one of our smaller distros:So, "what's behind the curtains"? How is it wired, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Before building a distro, I would suggest that you study up on electrical safety theory and codes.I was an electrical engineer in a previous life and did some industrial electrical work before that. Got to instrument a 1 million HP motor once - extra points to anyone that knows where you can find a pair of those in New England . As far as "code" goes, pigtailing out of a distribution panel is a no-no anyways so the question here is what is safe and what won't get you shut down. I'll admit my "old" distro isn't legal as it has no breakers and can push 40A (50A if used with a range plug ) out of each outlet and I was only using 10/4 cable good for 30A. I did make sure my amp power cables were 100% and most stuff was run through protected 15A 6 outlet strips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members samkokajko Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 I would trust that Bill knows what he built. He has a good rep here and is very knowledgable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 The cable is 10/4SO and the connectors are L14-30P. We use the primarily for small sound gigs or for tent lighting gigs (all we need now since most of it is done with LEDs.) For large events we roll out our 400 amp 3 phase distro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Obviously one would have to use higher rated cable and connectors to go beyond 30A assuming the connectors he used are 30A twistlocks and the cable 10/4 - I was questioning whether it was a 220V60A panel (as it appears to me) or a 110V30A panel (as the builder thinks). He said he used 4 15A breakers instead of 4 20A breakers because of the box's rating. I was an electrical engineer in a previous life and did some industrial electrical work before that. Got to instrument a 1 million HP motor once - extra points to anyone that knows where you can find a pair of those in New England . As far as "code" goes, pigtailing out of a distribution panel is a no-no anyways so the question here is what is safe and what won't get you shut down. I'll admit my "old" distro isn't legal as it has no breakers and can push 40A (50A if used with a range plug ) out of each outlet and I was only using 10/4 cable good for 30A. I did make sure my amp power cables were 100% and most stuff was run through protected 15A 6 outlet strips. Just because the panel is a 120/240 panel doesn't make it accptable for that use, the limiting factor is the feeder and connector and that's what governs the feeder OCP device by code. You admit that your old distro is not legal, I suggest that it's also not safe... without a feeder OCP of 20 amps. Bare wire connections are indeed safe and legal under the code when performed under supervised conditions in accordance to the appropriate code articles (OCP, grounding, conductor protection etc. If you did industrial electrical work, you should already know this. Much of the industrial sections of the code carry this condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Bare wire connections are indeed safe and legal under the code when performed under supervised conditions in accordance to the appropriate code articles (OCP, grounding, conductor protection etc. If you did industrial electrical work, you should already know this. Much of the industrial sections of the code carry this condition.Pretty sure hanging a pigtail out the front of the main beaker panel with the cover removed (like most I've seen) is not. You have to feed it into the box through a strain relief. Maybe that's what yous guys do? Do you carry a strain relief and knock out a hole for it? Do you carry hole covers to cover up the hole when you're through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Pretty sure hanging a pigtail out the front of the main beaker panel with the cover removed (like most I've seen) is not. You have to feed it into the box through a strain relief. Maybe that's what yous guys do? Do you carry a strain relief and knock out a hole for it? Do you carry hole covers to cover up the hole when you're through? Following the code requires that the conductors be strain relieved, proper OCP is provided, and that the panel is made safe by whatever means necessary (which is subject to the Authority having Jurisdiction). This is where the "supervised" aspect comes into play, supervised means overseen by a technically responsible (that may mean licensed, received accredited training, etc.) party. For example, if the panel was in a rated electrical room with restricted access (to technically responsible parties for example), then it may be mutually agreed by the AHJ and responsible party that the cover may remain off. Generally, I will install a threaded bushing (chase nipple) with exposed threads that allow me to secure the opening with a cap from the inside if it's a general purpose load center that's available. For the usual venues we work, roadshow terminal panels are available which are nicely set up for this kind of connection. Usually there will be a variety of lugs available, breakered at different levels such as a set of 30 amp lugs, 50 amp lugs, 100 amp lugs and maybe 200 amp lugs. That way the OCP is already in place and more likely to be properly sized for the feeder/distro being used. I just sold a CAM breakout fused disconnect to a forumite here that allows direct connection of a small distro to as high as a 400 amp bus with a choice of feeder fuses as low as 30 amps (with step-down fuse adapters). It was to protect against just this kind of scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 In answer to your very first question: A "poor man's distro" is just several groups of outlets seperately provided by seperate circuits with a shared ground. This cuts ground differential between the grouped outlets and most ground hum problems. I considered building one but having several lengths of supply lines was a clusterf*** idea to me. The same electrical principles can be accomplished by using 2 or more rack power strips mounted to a common steel rack rail. Every rack power strip I've opened up has the ground firmly attached to the metal box. This is mine. I got a 250' spool of 12awg from camel traders and with other 12awg cables I already had, made 2-77.5', 2-40', 1-95' duplex, 1-40 quad, & 1-30'duplex. The duplex and quads are for FOH & stage runs. TWO 20amp circuits run all PA and backline, lights get run seperately. I strongly considered a pendant style distro from the ampshop but most of the venues I'm at don't allow tie ins and the others are all different ;>( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Here's one of our smaller distros:So, is the internals of this guy top secret or ? It looks close to what I want to build next except for the twistlocks. I can always add them in if I find a need for them someday. Right now 4 20A circuits would be fine but I might as well set it up to handle a full "Range Plug" 50A feed with 6 20A circuits. I assume you have yours wired one duplex outlet per breaker with the twistlock across the two phases feeding the quadbox below? I think in that case you have to have double breakers that trip together to be legal. Or do you have separate breakers for the twistlocks? I think I'd like the 110V circuits to not trip two at once, especially with GFIs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Personally I hate extension cords with quad boxes on one end. A real PITA to coil and transport. We build a unit we call Drop-a-Quad. It is a quad box with six inch male and female tails. This allows you to "drop: a set of outlets in one location and continue on to another. Where ever the run ends you have 5 outlets. Here's a picture of the Drop-a-Quad as part of an order we recently shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 The same electrical principles can be accomplished by using 2 or more rack power strips mounted to a common steel rack rail.I'd be worried about the steel being a good enough conductor for this usage. The "poor man's distro" has the grounds bonded through both the steel and 12 gauge copper wires. I do think I'd build it with shorter cables and use standard 12/3 extension cords as needed to minimize the clusterf*** quotient. I also don't think the nipples between boxes are necessary - should be able to just drill and bolt them together. All my amp cases are 2U - one for each amp - for portability so I'd rather not go with rack mount power strips anyways . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 So, is the internals of this guy top secret or ? It looks close to what I want to build next except for the twistlocks. I can always add them in if I find a need for them someday. Right now 4 20A circuits would be fine but I might as well set it up to handle a full "Range Plug" 50A feed with 6 20A circuits. I assume you have yours wired one duplex outlet per breaker with the twistlock across the two phases feeding the quadbox below? I think in that case you have to have double breakers that trip together to be legal. Or do you have separate breakers for the twistlocks? I think I'd like the 110V circuits to not trip two at once, especially with GFIs . No secret, just don't have any pictures of the inside. The L14-20's are on 2 pole common trip breakers, the duplex recpts. are on 20 amp 1 pole breakers. There are 9 breakers in the panel, 3 x 2 pole and 6 x 1 pole. Feeder is 6/3-8/1 and it's all 50A CA newstyle twistlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 We build a unit we call Drop-a-Quad.Hey, that's a way cool idea ! My studio room has a bunch of cheap three wire three outlet 6'(?) extension cords daisy chained around the room for misc stuff. I just picked up some 24' outdoor extension cords That were on "after Xmas 75% markdown" at Lowes that have an outlet every 8 feet for $5 each . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 Feeder is 6/3-8/1 and it's all 50A CA newstyle twistlock.I couldn't find out exactly what "CA newstyle twistlock" is? So, there is a chunk of 6/3-8/1 coming out of the distro to a 50A twistlock - how long? What length extensions do you carry around with it? What length pigtail? Do you just stick a plug on the pigtail if needed or do you carry whatever-to-twistlock adapters or cables? Thanks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 There's 100 feet of feeder coiled up in the back of the rack w/ a 50A twist, all my breakouts are 50 amp twist to whatever I need (CAM, tails, L14-30, etc). I also have an additional 100' of feeder (just sold another 100' feeder extension) and this allows me to get power just about anywhere I need. 300' of feeder is adequate voltage drop wise for about 30 amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 ...all my breakouts are 50 amp twist to whatever I need (CAM, tails, L14-30, etc). Thanks for the info! So, do you have a distro set up with GFIs for outdoor use? Any reason to not just make one with GFIs if I don't plan on needing more than a 50A distro outdoors? Yah, I know yous guys would never use that little power outdoors but I've done a couple small events with just 2 800W amps and not had any complaints. No lights needed as these would be daytime events. Bigger events will usually be us opening for a name act so I don't have to worry about owning "big power" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 I generally don't use GFCI's, because I have in place a verified grounding/bonding program for our distros, but I do carry some GFCI quad outlet boxes for situations where I feel they are warranted or they are required by the AHJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted February 23, 2009 Members Share Posted February 23, 2009 If you refer to the beginning of this thread you'll find I'm looking to upgrade to safe and as legal as possible - GFIs for outdoors and all . I'll just fix that for you... Legal, and as safe as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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