Members turbocody Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 Ok, to start I will tell you the problem I'm having. (1) vocals seem they are to low in certain areas and too loud in others....but only too loud in certain freq(mostly 1.5k-3k) they pierce the mix.(2) the vocals are not cutting like i want them(presence) not quality. so my thoughts on solving problem(1) is too take a 31band eq and sidechain it to the compressor and boost 1.5k-3k so the compressor will cut those freq more. and to tackle problem(2) is to cut freq 4k-6k on the sidechain'd eq so the compressor does not squash those freq as much. I sub all the vocals to 1 subgroup and send that to the compressor. compressor is set at 2:1 and usaully 2-8db reduction in most songs. 1 last question, would it be bad for me to run the effects through the compressor/eq chain off the subgroup? the reason I ask this is because I want to have the vocals under control and not have the effects JUMP out in the mix too much! and could the effects go BEFORE it gets too the compressor/eq? Sorry for the long post, I think I'm on the right track, just need some outside advice on this. Cody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidss1 Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 once the threshold of the compressor is breached,the compression will apply to the complete signal passing through it,it will not become frequency supression as i think u r assumeing.try to fix the problem on the channel strip eq,and if this doesnt give u enough accuracy,insert the 31 band or a parametric eq into the mic channel.there are a lot of other variables that could be in play here also,,the type of mic used,,the persons technique and also the natural tone of their voice also are factors.some digital mixers have compressor capabilities to be able to select different compression ratios and frequency ranges for multiple processing within one unit like u r seeking.r u sure it is isolated to the vocal chanels only ,and not something in the overall system or monitor tuning and alignment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members turbocody Posted March 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 the system sounds amazing playing program music through it, and everything else in the mix sounds good. it's vocalists alone. i'm already using the ch strip eq to help the problem, but i dont wanna cut too much so it sounds un-natural to the person singing. I know sidechaining the eq like stated above will work, just need some input if thats what I NEED to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidss1 Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 yes sorry,not sure what i was thinking there ,,,the sidechain will help to emphasise the freqency range as u suggest,but the compression might add the problem of the high frequency clarity loss that u r looking to improve in the 5-6 k range.i would just try it and see if u get the result u r after Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members turbocody Posted March 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 ok, but also, like stated above....cutting 4-6k in the eq will keep the compressor from taking the clarity out of the mix right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidss1 Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 yes,but to me this implies running the signal always in compression to achieve the stable response or is the problem only when the vocals go louder than an average ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 Sounds like your singer(s) don't have proper mic technique down - see if you can teach them some. I'd try a straight 3-6dB peak compress inserted in the worst offender (take him out of the sub mix as you don't want to double compress) first before gettin' all weird with the sidechain. If you only have the one compressor I'd use it only on the "wailer" - I usually only compress the lead singer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 Using an eq in the sidechain like you are doing will not achieve what you think you are trying to achieve. Your compressor is a broadband device and does not compress program material (vocals in your case) symmetrically. What you are doing is making the threshold frequency dependant which will then affect the entire vocal range uniformly. I do not think this is the answer to your problem, and it's possible that it's contributing to the problem. What are you using for mics, monitors, mains, what kind of music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members turbocody Posted March 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 well, I work with singers that have been doing it for a while(15-20yrs). one of the problems is the stage volume is LOUD and they have to get in the mic sometimes to hear themselves. and certain notes(1.5k-3k) just seem too much(i'm already cutting the ch eq in this area). i use sm58 mics on all the vocals, jbl mp415's for monitors, and jbl srx725's&728's for mains. i might need to get a couple beta58's to try and get some more gain before feedback so the singer doesn't have to get in the mic too much and push those certain freq? the band always plays loud as crap, starts with the loud drummer and everyone else follows suite....it's not going to change so I have to deal with it. band plays disco, r&b, little rock, pop. typical cover band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 might need to get a couple beta58's to try and get some more gain before feedback so the singer doesn't have to get in the mic too much and push those certain freq?Yes, I like those microphones much better than the old SM58. I carry a SM58 that has maybe an hour on it and have yet to find a voice it was better on than a Beta 58A or EV N/D767A. I don't use it for anything else as I don't want anybody saying it's ragged out when I'm educating them . The one thing I don't cheese out on is vocal mics - the rest of my mics are Nady . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 Try a Beta 58 or a sennheiser 845. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted March 19, 2009 Members Share Posted March 19, 2009 the beta 58 could actually make things worse too. it's a pretty aggressive mic at the frequency area you're having issues with. Those JBLs are also quite aggressive in that range too. Getting on the mic doesnt really exaggerate the issue, it will however add some proximity, and does help your gain before feedback issue..so that's good. So, if you think that the singers can back off a beta 58, you'll have similar issues with the loud stage volume..only you'll also have a thinner tone. If you've got the ch eq cut already, especially if every channel has similar cut, then I suspect that the mains eq might need some massaging. Personally I like to EQ the system for the vocals to sound great(if it's a singing group as opposed to metal, jazz, or something without, or not having vocal priority) and use the ch eq to get the band in shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 JBL, to my ear, has that "edge" in the range you are talking about. It's just a natural part of the speaker. To get around this, your monitor eq is GOING to look crazy. Try some pink noise and a reference mic into something like a DRPA to get the sound of the monitor back into the ballpark. Then try the vocal again to see if your channel eq can return to "normal" again. Also, compress the vocal to the point of about 5-7dB gain reduction on the loudest passages only, leaving the softer stuff alone. Once you are done with this, work on the front mains. They will also have the same "crazy" curve on the eq. This is exactly the reason I don't like the sound of the JBL speakers. Even the vertecs have this wierd boost. Personally, I my ears can't deal with this as it's too "harsh" for me, and I don't like my eq to be "crazy" like it would need to be. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Frankly I don't buy this harshness stuff with JBL if it's set up correctly. I do not see anything crazy on a JBL SRX or Vertec eq curve actually. Pretty much a textbook performance. Otherwise it wouldn't be one of the best selling speakers on the semi-pro and pro markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Maybe, but every one I have ever listened to was that way. My ears, perhaps? Could be. No other brand does this to my ears, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 On the system in the club I have a pair of 722's over a set of 728's. The 722's do seem to be a little harsh at 2.5k, 4k, & 10k. In the Driverack I pulled 2db of 2.5k, 4k, & 10k and it made quite a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 My ears, perhaps? Could be. No other brand does this to my ears, however.Same here - they fatigue my ears more than any other "big" brand . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 On the system in the club I have a pair of 722's over a set of 728's. The 722's do seem to be a little harsh at 2.5k, 4k, & 10k. In the Driverack I pulled 2db of 2.5k, 4k, & 10k and it made quite a difference. Yes, this seems reasonable. It's hardly "CRAZY" eq, perhaps there is something very wrong with the setup or gain structure of the crossover power bandwidth? 6Imzadi, how did you set up your mid-high signal sensitivities on your crossover? Did you use an RTA and look at energy-band balance (matching average energy using pink noise across the two bands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 Unfortunately, I haven't been able to adjust any eq on the JBL's I have run. The systech would not allow it in either of the two cases I had the opportunity to mix on them. The one was a regular double 15/ horn/ 218, two per side. The tech eq'd it and looked like a sine wave from 800 on up. The guy wouldn't let me touch it. Grrrr:mad: The other time was a vertec rig. real nice, but the eq looked chaotic and sounded the same. I made do on both with channel eq to compensate to a relatively good degree. Not, however, to my liking. Sounded really horrible on the bands that were on before us. After I was done on the channel eq, the system tech looked at me in amazement. I think he thought I was crazy for tweaking stuff so much. Audience really noticed, though, in a good way. One guy asked me why this band sounds so much better than the previous band. Others just flashed the thumbs up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Unfortunately, I haven't been able to adjust any eq on the JBL's I have run. The systech would not allow it in either of the two cases I had the opportunity to mix on them. So you say that JBL sounds harsh on 2 systems with crazy eq. and that's good data? I've own, worked with or installed dozens of systems with JBL components and I have not found this to be the case at all, and no crazy eq either. The point of my response is that you have 2 negative experiences with a crippled system and you now think that all JBLs sound harsh without crazy eq? I do not see the logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 Any where I hear them, I have to leave due to the frequencies hurting my ears. Anywhere. Maybe you can get them to sound good, but nobody here can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members turbocody Posted March 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 well, to go on to what you guys are talking about. the JBL's in my opinion are very crisp in their high end. i would rather have this than a pre-eq'd speaker that gives you a un-natural sound. basically, the JBL's tend to show your flaws in the system more....like i'm having. but once you get the issue under control...if it be the engineer or the system, i think the JBL is a great speaker. also, back on mic's....i have a wireless beta87 i can try....should i give it a shot since i already have it? or should i just go ahead and pick me up a beta58? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I have heard plenty of JBL systems sound really good. Mark's got a Vertec rig and used to own an Array (or AE) series rig and I'm sure there were no such problems with his stuff either. Anybody else own any of the better JBL models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.