Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 OK, we are PA newbies, we just want to confirm a few things. 1) We have a Yorkville M1610. Using it in mains/monitor mode, that means it is driving 800 watts for both the mains and the monitors..... right? That's what the manual seems to say. 2) We have one set of Yamaha S115H ii speakers. 400 watts, 8 ohms. I have these hooked up to the monitor channel (channel B). Each speaker is using a speaker cable (regular 1/4 mono jack) into the channel B hookups. There's 2 of them on the PA, so I hooked each speaker to those. That means they are in parallell, right? Which means that I actually have 4 ohms of speaker impedence? Which means I am actually outputting 800 watts into those speakers? Which they should handle, as I have a total of 800 watts of power handling, right? 3) I have a set of (rented) Yorkville YX15 hooked up to the main channel (channel A). 300 watts, 8 ohms. These have a weird 'plug' that you insert and twist. As there is only one such hook up on the PA per channel, I plugged one speaker into that, then ran a similar type of cable between that speaker and the other one. This STILL means I have my speakers hooked in parallell, for 4 ohms of impedence, right? And I have 600 watts power handling? So does that mean I am going to blow these speakers if I crank the PA? Not that this is necessary, currently we only have it sent to 1/2 on the main fader. 4) Am I right in thinking that the power amps are rated at 800 watts @ 4 ohms, but that as impedence goes up, this rating goes down? ie: if I were to hook up an 8 ohm load, I would actually be getting 400 watts of output, not 800 watts??? Not sure if that makes sense or not? I guess I'm wondering if 800 watts is 800 watts is 800 watts - ie: am I always getting 800 watts no matter what speaker impedence I hook up? And I'm cool with impedence as long as I don't go below 4 ohms? This part really confuses me. 5) The Yamahas seem louder, while the yorkvilles seem brighter..... Currently we are just experimenting with this to try to find the best setup, but I've found that as 'monitors', the yorkvilles are not loud enough (before feedback commences), whereas the yamahas are loud enough but lose some top end. Does this make sense? Given this situation, which would you use as monitors, and which as FOH? Are either suitable as FOH? I'm just afraid that the yorkvilles will not give us enough volume as monitors to hear vocals. Or that if we use them as FOH we'll blow them because we need to turn them up too loud and they can't handle the load. The Yamahas are darker only because as monitors we need to EQ out some highs to reduce feedback enough to get good volume. We could do this with the yorkvilles as well, but their feedback problems seem to be across a wider spectrum and as a result is harder to EQ out. Classic hard rock band - hendrix, zepp, halen, who, ac/dc, that sort of thing 3 piece plus singer. Bass 200 watt amp, I use a 50 watt Marshall, if that matters We are micing vox through monitors and FOH, guitar and bass just through FOH. Not micing drums at all. This is for gigs. Right now all our experimenting is for practice, in which case we are only using monitors and just micing vox. 2 singers if that matters. Using SM58s for vox. Will be using SM57s for guitars. Any help would be appreciated. The Yorkvilles are rentals, so we can trade to something else if necessary (although the price point is good). We rented them for a month to try and see if they are suitable (try before you buy kind of idea). Our original thought was to use the Yorkvilles as monitors and the Yamahas as FOH. Now we are rethinking that given that we cannot get enough volume out the them without feedback when using them as monitors, and we are concerned we will blow them up if we use them as FOH. Don't need a lot of power, when we do gig it is very small places, 50 ~ 100 max people. Mostly we use the PA for practice. None of us have ever run PA before, so any help appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 12, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 Good job....you've got it right, and seem to have a pretty firm grasp on the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 My concern is that mixer seems pretty limited on inputs for a full band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 My concern is that mixer seems pretty limited on inputs for a full band. We thought about that as well. We got a good deal on it, and I checked here for reviews before buying. What I found in general was it was thought of fairly highly for a powered mixer. I have to say that I have not seen as much divergence of opinion on anything like there is on PA equipment. It is worse than looking at guitar amps! It is very hard to make out all the various opinions (which sometimes seem completely opposed) and come up with some consensus. Our thinking on going this route was that what we needed more than anything was something that was simple and easy to set up, and could do the occasional SMALL gig. If we ever do larger gigs, then we can rethink. We got it cheap enough we can flip it and not lose money. For now it serves its primary purpose (practice, just vox), and can stretch to where we need it for small gigs (just micing vox and the guitars). Given that it's a 3 piece, and we are not micing drums, that sounds like a maximum of 6 mics required (4 vox if everyone sings, guitar, and bass). There are NO plans to add any other instruments. Am I missing something? That is completely possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Good job....you've got it right, and seem to have a pretty firm grasp on the basics. Any feedback on question #4? I don't get it, and am still confused on it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Doesn't matter how good a deal something is if it doesn't work for you. What you're missing is that you really should be micing everything. Not should be like maybe it's a good idea, should be like it's pretty much mandatory. I couldn't gig my 4 piece band with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Any feedback on question #4? I don't get it, and am still confused on it..... As impedance goes up, power goes down. In theory, doubling the impedance would cut the power in half. In practice it doesn't always work out that way. Specs claim 600 watts at 8 ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Doesn't matter how good a deal something is if it doesn't work for you.What you're missing is that you really should be micing everything. Not should be like maybe it's a good idea, should be like it's pretty much mandatory. I couldn't gig my 4 piece band with that. by 'micing everything', in this case you mean the drums? That is all we are not micing now.... How many mics would one normally put on the drums? (I'm guessing 3?) Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 by 'micing everything', in this case you mean the drums? That is all we are not micing now....How many mics would one normally put on the drums? (I'm guessing 3?)Thanks. My drummer uses 5, bass, snare, left toms, right toms, floor tom. The tom mics pick up the cymbals, but some drummers may want separate mics for them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 12, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 Any feedback on question #4? I don't get it, and am still confused on it..... You had it correct, that doubling impedance will halve power, and vice versa. As GCDEF wrote, this is not an exact thing, and you should always check the spec for a given amp, but it'll typically serve you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToneGrail Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Are the monitors daisy chained? If not they should be to make sure that they are in parallel. We have a similar PA head, but it has only one 1/4 inch speaker out per channel. Make sure you're not plugging one of your monitors into the same channel that is driving the mains. You might cause some real problems if you are. You could be driving your mains channel at lower than the recommended impedance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 by 'micing everything', in this case you mean the drums? That is all we are not micing now....How many mics would one normally put on the drums? (I'm guessing 3?)Thanks. We always used 4 (kick, snare, hi hat/snare, toms). It worked well for us. If we were to add more it would be some type of overhead mic but in the places we played, the cymbals cut through pretty good with the mics we had. Now the damn drummer uses 8 channels with his TD-20 kit...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Yes, I see your point. In this case the PA has 2 1/4 jacks on EACH channel - but only one of those larger round plugs. I know that I have the monitors plugged into the 2 jacks on the SAME channel. I believe that is parellell, but cannot find any documentation that says it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 It's parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Barisaxman2000 Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Not should be like maybe it's a good idea, should be like it's pretty much mandatory. I couldn't gig my 4 piece band with that. Not exactly mandatory...a good band that can control and balance their stage volume with a drummer who can tune his drums decently can sound very good with only a vocal PA, especially considering the OP specified that the gigs were 50-100 capacity pub-type gigs. So the first part of your post, "maybe it's a good idea", is exactly the answer in this small application. Keep it simple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tele-vangelist Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 For my education, so then you're putting out 800 watts @ 4 ohms -> two 400 watt 8 ohm speakers in parallel. When you do this, the total wattage from the amp gets split in half so each speaker sees the 400 watts it's rated for? (I understand the impedence in parallel, 8 ohms + 8ohms = 4 ohms total) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Barisaxman2000 Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 For my education, so then you're putting out 800 watts @ 4 ohms -> two 400 watt 8 ohm speakers in parallel. When you do this, the total wattage from the amp gets split in half so each speaker sees the 400 watts it's rated for? (I understand the impedence in parallel, 8 ohms + 8ohms = 4 ohms total) Basically yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Not exactly mandatory...a good band that can control and balance their stage volume with a drummer who can tune his drums decently can sound very good with only a vocal PA, especially considering the OP specified that the gigs were 50-100 capacity pub-type gigs. So the first part of your post, "maybe it's a good idea", is exactly the answer in this small application. Keep it simple... My thought is that it sounds OK as is (drums not mic'd), and going through the extra expense and complication isn't worth it for where the band is at right now..... but I am very interested in how this is normally done properly so that maybe some day the band will be in a position to need it and I'll know more than I do now - which shouldn't be too hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Barisaxman2000 Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 When it comes to micing drums, you can go as simple or complex as necessary. I've had good luck with a bare minimum setup of kick, snare/hat, and two overheads to cover toms/cymbals. This has usually been small outdoor gigs. Inside you could probably get away without the snare/hat mic if necessary and do it with 2 or 3 channels. On my regular BE gig, we use kick, snare, hat, tom1, tom2, tom3. The tom mics and vocal mics pick up enough cymbal that overheads are not necessary. Gates on all but the hat mic. There are many, MANY ways to go about micing drums, you just have to figure out what works for your application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Not exactly mandatory...a good band that can control and balance their stage volume with a drummer who can tune his drums decently can sound very good with only a vocal PA, especially considering the OP specified that the gigs were 50-100 capacity pub-type gigs. So the first part of your post, "maybe it's a good idea", is exactly the answer in this small application. Keep it simple... I don't care how small the place is, you need to at least get the kick in there. We have this discussion on a fairly regular basis. To me, there's no comparison in sound quality between micing and not micing. You have so much control and much, much better sound quality with everything in the PA. If you don't mic everything, your entire band output throughout the entire club is constrained by how hard the drummer is or isn't hitting his drums. That's goofy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Barisaxman2000 Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 I don't care how small the place is, you need to at least get the kick in there. We have this discussion on a fairly regular basis. To me, there's no comparison in sound quality between micing and not micing. You have so much control and much, much better sound quality with everything in the PA. If you don't mic everything, your entire band output throughout the entire club is constrained by how hard the drummer is or isn't hitting his drums. That's goofy. I know where you're coming from, but usable kick out of a set of tops on pole mounts is pretty hard to come by. Sure you can get a little bit of mid and some click from the beater, but in a club that holds 100 people tops, the average person isn't going to know the difference. Beyond that, you don't have to worry about asking the tops to do something they weren't designed for, especially considering the limited output from the powered mixer. Actually if I were the OP, considering the size of the rooms/crowds, I'd think about utilizing a single top and sub (passive crossover in sub if necessary), rather than two tops if they really want to get drums in the FOH mix. This would be a much better solution for a full-range sound including micing the drum kit. Given the small room size, it could be feasible solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 I know where you're coming from, but usable kick out of a set of tops on pole mounts is pretty hard to come by. Sure you can get a little bit of mid and some click from the beater, but in a club that holds 100 people tops, the average person isn't going to know the difference. Beyond that, you don't have to worry about asking the tops to do something they weren't designed for, especially considering the limited output from the powered mixer.Actually if I were the OP, considering the size of the rooms/crowds, I'd think about utilizing a single top and sub (passive crossover in sub if necessary), rather than two tops if they really want to get drums in the FOH mix. This would be a much better solution for a full-range sound including micing the drum kit. Given the small room size, it could be feasible solution. As he said, he has no PA experience, so he doesn't know what he needs yet. Without subs, he'll be limited in the thump he gets, but you can still get some kick and much better control and distribution of your sound with even without them. That doesn't change the fact that a 6 channel mixer isn't adequate for a band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 12, 2009 Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Once in a while (against my better judgement) I play a small club/dive that has an in house "PA". We often bring in a Yorkville 1610 to replace their decrepit powered head. Three vocals, kick, one overhead, bass DI, and sometimes guitar (usually the guitar mic is off "fader down"). No subs, just two NX35 tops. Because we're not competing with other systems with subs... (no other bands bring in any other stuff) everyone is happy (bar staff, managers, and audience). It's not ideal, or even desirable but it can be done - depends on the circuit and the venue. A note about the 1610 - there are low and high pots to either side of the EQ's. If you read the manual, you will see that they are responsible for the "lower" lows and "upper" highs. Pay attention to these as they can have a fairly dramatic effect on your sound, irrespective off your graphic EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rccCrawler Posted August 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted August 12, 2009 Once in a while (against my better judgement) A note about the 1610 - there are low and high pots to either side of the EQ's. If you read the manual, you will see that they are responsible for the "lower" lows and "upper" highs. Pay attention to these as they can have a fairly dramatic effect on your sound, irrespective off your graphic EQ. yeah I noticed those, but was not sure what they did. Right now, I have them all at 12:00 - is that the right place for a 'neutral' setting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassman blue Posted September 1, 2009 Members Share Posted September 1, 2009 What would be wrong with the drummer mic'ing his kit into a small personal mixer and then running the mixed line into the 1610? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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