Best powered speaker

[GigMan]

I am not committed to a single speaker, but it seems like it would be an easier solution to have 1 instead of 2. Is there any advantage to having 2 instead of one (like stereo image, sound spread, etc)? Shaster, I would love to audition a selection from above, but I think that GC carries few (if any) of them?

Gtr. Ctr. carries JBL, QSC & maybe EV - but probably not Yorkville or FBT.

Advantage to two cabinets is the stereo spread, yes - but if you're just a one man gtr./vocals act, that's irrelevant. But still, having two would allow you to use one as flr. monitor and one up on spkr. pole.

[agedhorse]

Sometimes 1 is better, sometimes not.

Often. it's advantagous to use 2 if 1 will not achieve the needed coverage.

"Stereo" is a whole another issue that generally needs some real thought as to the benefits or disadvantages.

[Mr Blues]

I love the RCF Active 310-A and the RCF 325 12'inch speakers.
Good clarity and warmth.

dave

[OneEng]

Sometimes 1 is better, sometimes not. Often. it's advantagous to use 2 if 1 will not achieve the needed coverage. "Stereo" is a whole another issue that generally needs some real thought as to the benefits or disadvantages.

 

 

Do you think that stereo image is important in a small one-man gig? I am not sure that coverage is an issue since I can always use my full gig rig for anything bigger than what a single speaker can cover.

 

dcastar,

 

Thank you very much for your chart! From your chart, while the EV and RFC look like they have everything one would need, they are also out of my pain tolerance of 1K each. You didn't list a price on the Turbosound speakers, but I looked up a model a while back and I think that they were fairly expensive.

 

It looks like your chart would indicate that the Yorkville NX55P would be my best bet?

[dcastar]

The Turbosound Milan's are new for 2010, and pricing has yet to be listed. They should be in stores soon -- according to one of the vendors I contacted. The specs on them look impressive... but we'll all have to wait until we can hear them to pass final judgment. In the past, Turbosound has been known for making really good high-end gear... and only 'so/so' consumer-end gear.

 

The Yorkies are excellent little boxes. And I do mean LITTLE. It's surprising how much sound they get out of the tiny little boxes. They're a very good choice -- in fact, before we bought our full QSC HPR system a few years ago, we were looking very seriously at those NX's.

[1tribe]

The Turbosound Milan's are new for 2010, and pricing has yet to be listed. They should be in stores soon -- according to one of the vendors I contacted. The specs on them look impressive... but we'll all have to wait until we can hear them to pass final judgment. In the past, Turbosound has been known for making really good high-end gear... and only 'so/so' consumer-end gear. The Yorkies are excellent little boxes. And I do mean LITTLE. It's surprising how much sound they get out of the tiny little boxes. They're a very good choice -- in fact, before we bought our full QSC HPR system a few years ago, we were looking very seriously at those NX's.

 

 

 

I got to hear the new Milan yesterday at namm. To my ears they sound great. Wouldnt except them to sound bad. They are made in China, but I was told they are 100 percent designed by the engineers in the UK. Price point is right at the 1000.00 dollar mark.

 

http://www.turbosound.com/milan-m15/index.html

[Chip Stewart]

I am not committed to a single speaker, but it seems like it would be an easier solution to have 1 instead of 2. Is there any advantage to having 2 instead of one (like stereo image, sound spread, etc)

 

 

You don't need to worry about stereo image for what you're doing. Many of the coffee shops I play in are awkwardly shaped, and 1 speaker would not really provide uniform coverage. With the two speakers, I can spread out the sound better to get coverage of most of the shop. I don't use the two speakers to be louder, but to have a more even distribution of sound.

 

The EV SXa100+ is $600 per speaker, so I think 2 would be out of your price range. You may be able to strike a deal of 2 for $1000 if the shop has them in stock and hasn't sold anything lately. You can definitely get good deals right now.

[agedhorse]

Here's a chart I made last week for a DJ friend who's looking to buy new speakers in the next couple months. Thought it might help you out. Note : My color markings are my overall feeling/ratings for the speakers. I've heard them all at various locations... some AB'ed next to each other.... but still, to be taken as subjective ratings. (Your mileage may vary...)

The chart, while interesting, is preposterous in it's attempt to assign ratings to the catagories. You give the PRX-512 a red rating in the frequency response area but that is infact part of what makes the 512 an excellent performer for this appication and using this criteria, the SRX-712 would also get a red rating but is one of the very best speakers on the market in the $1000-$1500 range. Your comments or rating s on scalability is also inaccurate and/or misleading. Again, using the 512 as an example, they are quite scalable as the horn patterns are reasonably uniform and thus the overlap is pretty darn acceptable. For the OP's application it doesn't matter though.

Caution must be used when trying to "rate" speakers without considering the application and system configuration.

[dcastar]

The chart, while interesting...

 

 

This is where you failed to read the "Your mileage may vary" part.

 

With the cornucopia of music acts in this region... I've seen / listened to bands in tons of venues all with various frankenstein PA setups, to bands with EAW line-arrays. Putting 3 PRX's together on a side isn't going to yield you the same results if, say, you put 3 ZXA5's on a side together. My chart was a simple head-to-head looking plainly at the stated figures, and my own experience, listening to many of the speakers in live situations. But then again, why read my 2nd sentence above the chart anyway.... "totally subjective.... your mileage may vary".

 

Agedhorse, I've been noticing a common theme with a lot of your posts recently. Prior to the last month or so, you've usually been more than helpful, but lately you seem to jump over people without reading the whole story, or better yet... jumping to conclusions about everything. Just an observation... do with it what you will.

[hemismith]

Here's a chart I made last week for a DJ friend who's looking to buy new speakers in the next couple months. Thought it might help you out. Note : My color markings are my overall feeling/ratings for the speakers. I've heard them all at various locations... some AB'ed next to each other.... but still, to be taken as subjective ratings. (Your mileage may vary...)

Congrats on your Turbosound acquisition. Nice chart too; I made something similar a while back; wanted to upload it somewhere where others could add to it but never figured that out. One problem is getting consistent specs though; for example, the K12 frequency response is actually spec'd at -6db. Of course, how things sound is another story, but it's at least nice to see all the options.

[agedhorse]

This is where you failed to read the "Your mileage may vary" part. With the cornucopia of music acts in this region... I've seen / listened to bands in tons of venues all with various frankenstein PA setups, to bands with EAW line-arrays. Putting 3 PRX's together on a side isn't going to yield you the same results if, say, you put 3 ZXA5's on a side together. My chart was a simple head-to-head looking plainly at the stated figures, and my own experience, listening to many of the speakers in live situations. But then again, why read my 2nd sentence above the chart anyway.... "totally subjective.... your mileage may vary". Agedhorse, I've been noticing a common theme with a lot of your posts recently. Prior to the last month or so, you've usually been more than helpful, but lately you seem to jump over people without reading the whole story, or better yet... jumping to conclusions about everything. Just an observation... do with it what you will.

 

 

 

In the interest of accuracy, I have noticed a lot more misleading and completely inacccurate or incorrect information being parroted (not specifically you BTW). Your post happened to be misleading to the many folks who lurk and are trying to learn about this stuff and hear things like your example berween the 512's and the EV's. Honestly, you might be surprised to find that overlapping of speakers is not as big of a deal as some marketing folks would like you to believe. It happens all the time below 2kHz because the polar patterns down there are pretty darn broad (>90 degrees) anyway. There are times that I intentionally do this with excellent results too.

 

Horn polar patterns are not perfectly uniform relative to frequency. Where overlapping tends to be more troublesome is where the polar response is very ragged and the amplitude response peaky or "holey".

 

I get a lot of PM's from folks that are confused about these old wives tales and myths, setting the stuff as straight as possible, or at least explaining some of the details that make up the basis for these myths helps make things more educational for the hundreds or thousands of other people reading the thread months from now. Not looking for a fight.

[dcastar]

In the interest of accuracy, I have noticed a lot more misleading and completely inacccurate or incorrect information being parroted (not specifically you BTW). Your post happened to be misleading to the many folks who lurk and are trying to learn about this stuff and hear things like your example berween the 512's and the EV's. Honestly, you might be surprised to find that overlapping of speakers is not as big of a deal as some marketing folks would like you to believe. It happens all the time below 2kHz because the polar patterns down there are pretty darn broad (>90 degrees) anyway. There are times that I intentionally do this with excellent results too. Horn polar patterns are not perfectly uniform relative to frequency. Where overlapping tends to be more troublesome is where the polar response is very ragged and the amplitude response peaky or "holey". I get a lot of PM's from folks that are confused about these old wives tales and myths, setting the stuff as straight as possible, or at least explaining some of the details that make up the basis for these myths helps make things more educational for the hundreds or thousands of other people reading the thread months from now. Not looking for a fight.

 

 

Gotcha. And you're correct.... there are tons of misleading facts and figures out there, and the marketing folks have been turned loose for these companies to make money. I was actually having an interesting conversation with my GC Pro rep the other day. How QSC sells so many K series with the fact that they are one-THOUSAND watts. If they were Eleven-HUNDRED watts, they wouldn't sell nearly as many. Why? It's a psychological thing... you hear THOUSAND... it must be better, right!?

 

I guess the real thing to take away from the chart I made would be the clarity section... but that's, as stated, a subjective thing to my own listening experiences... and people should really go out and do real-live A/B tests in controlled environments before making a purchase, instead of taking fully to heart what someone might say on the internet, of course. Perhaps my chart would have been better had I not colored anything in?

 

Anyhow... timing those polar patterns in the low end.... you're absolutely spot-on about it. If you know how to control it, you can certainly get some very good results.

[Shaster]

Sometimes the grey area on a particular topic is so vast, folks would rather err on the side of caution re: their suggestions to posters. I've done that, for good or bad. You know, stuff like "don't forget the three to one rule or the sky will fall".

Regarding polar patterns. Had my Unity U15's and Yorkville EX-401's set up at home the other day. Horn pattern on the U15 is 60 by 60 I believe (conical horn). Pattern on the EX-401 is 60 x 40. The EX-401 "threw" highs in a much wider pattern than the U15. I've noticed this on gigs too. Both specs say the horizontal coverage is 60 degrees, but there's a huge coverage difference and it probably varies throughout the high/mid spectrum.

Specs are like statistics. I take them for what they are, whatever that is.

[agedhorse]

There is no way to control the low frequency polar pattern without resorting to a large LF horn or line array or active phase cancellation steering methods... none of which apply even remotely to the types of speakers being discussed.

You are stuck with roughly spherical patterns that get wider as frequency decreases. That's physics at work. That's why when arraying speakers, the horn pattern is only part ofthe equation and IMO, uniformity of the horn pattern plays more into the result than just the published pattern. A uniform 90 degree pattern would array better than a beamy 40 or 60 degree because of what is happening to the net summed response as you move across the pattern.

[OneEng]

dcastar,

I primarily looked at the clarity, price, and weight/size listing in your spreadsheet. As agedhorse stated, I really have no interest in creating an array so the scaling to an array of speakers is not relevant to my application (but still interesting to read about for a GAS prone gear head).

Mr Blues,

I love the RCF Active 310-A and the RCF 325 12'inch speakers. Good clarity and warmth.

The 325 seems like a decent fit, but I found few places that carry them. Any idea why?

Chip Stewart,

You don't need to worry about stereo image for what you're doing. Many of the coffee shops I play in are awkwardly shaped, and 1 speaker would not really provide uniform coverage. With the two speakers, I can spread out the sound better to get coverage of most of the shop. I don't use the two speakers to be louder, but to have a more even distribution of sound.

In the absence of stereo image as a factor, spreading the noise around seems like it may be overkill and would create a more complex hookup (carry and hookup 2 instead of 1, and have 2 poles instead of 1, 2 cables instead of one, etc).

I have also seen several instance of small one-man gigs where there wasn't room for 2 speakers on poles. Keep in mind that I always have the option of carrying a QSC3002 amp and 2 Klipsch 302's if I want a larger setup with bigger coverage (and much better sound quality). I would have to extract my amp from my normal amp rack (or carry the whole thing .... which is quite heavy), but that isn't a big chore.

I suspect that the small gigs I will play will be well served with a single speaker. My band only plays out about every other month and I get my fill of moving heavy equipment (and a good amount of exercise) then

[OneEng]

Oops. Incidentally, I have been mis-quoting my main system speakers. They are 301's, not 302's. They look like this:



3 way, internal crossover.

[BillESC]

Take a look at these specifications:

http://www.kv2audio.com/product.asp?ProdID=EX12&ProdSeries=EX

While this cabinet is a little under $ 3000.00 new, I saw a used one on Gear Source . Com a couple days ago for a bit over a grand.

[agedhorse]

Oops. Incidentally, I have been mis-quoting my main system speakers. They are 301's, not 302's.

 

 

The new speakers will far outperform what you have now, at 1/2 the size and weight. Those CV's were pigs.

[OneEng]

BillESC,

 

Thanks. I'll take a look!

 

agedhorse,

 

The new speakers will far outperform what you have now, at 1/2 the size and weight. Those CV's were pigs.

 

Those are not literally my speakers. I have the original 15" drivers from Klipsch in mine ..... are the stock speakers CV's in them? Mine do not have the markings that those in the picture show on the right side 15" driver.

 

I have always been impressed with the sound of the Klipsch 301's. I have had friends borrow them that usually use JBL SRX tops and they also thought they performed well.

 

Do you think that two Yorkville NX55P's would surpass these Klipsch 3-ways? I use a pair of Cerwin Vega 18" folded horns with them (powered by a Crown K2).

 

If that were the case, I could use the tops for my main rig and use just a single top for coffee shop gigs.

[agedhorse]

Are those really Klipsch speakers? Both Kilpch and CV offered a cabinet very much like that, though IIRC the mid horn was an EV unit or something like that (maybe University) with an EV or University screw-on mid driver. I think the Klipch used a T35 tweeter and CV used something quite different... maybe a piezo.

It's been way too long since I worked on a CV like that.

[Shaster]

There is no way to control the low frequency polar pattern without resorting to a large LF horn or line array or active phase cancellation steering methods... none of which apply even remotely to the types of speakers being discussed. You are stuck with roughly spherical patterns that get wider as frequency decreases. That's physics at work. That's why when arraying speakers, the horn pattern is only part ofthe equation and IMO, uniformity of the horn pattern plays more into the result than just the published pattern. A uniform 90 degree pattern would array better than a beamy 40 or 60 degree because of what is happening to the net summed response as you move across the pattern.

 

 

Very interesting. Sounds about right to me.

 

That reminds me of a club I used to play back in the eighties.

 

Mounted right above and across the width of the stage were four (4) EV1202's (90 x 40 I believe). Subs were down below. This wasn't a very loud crowd and the EV's actually sounded great, especially for that time period and venue. I used to play there about ten to twelve times a year, five days a week. I also saw a lot of bands there on my time off because my apartment was only a block away from the club - yea!

 

I do not recall any problems with comb filtering... or harsh highs, actually just the opposite. And yet in theory there could/should have been some issues. It was a small stage and the boxes were essentially lined up side by side.

 

Always sounded great in that room.

[OneEng]

Are those really Klipsch speakers? Both Kilpch and CV offered a cabinet very much like that, though IIRC the mid horn was an EV unit or something like that (maybe University) with an EV or University screw-on mid driver. I think the Klipch used a T35 tweeter and CV used something quite different... maybe a piezo. It's been way too long since I worked on a CV like that.

In the picture, the one on the left has 4 large clamps holding the 15" speaker. That is what both of mine look like.

I have never had the mid horn out, but I once blew the tweeter on one. Klipsch sent me a replacement (just the internals) for free. I am pretty sure it is a custom Klipsch part. Not sure about the mid horn though.

I am sure that the 15" on the pictured speaker on the left is not how the real Klipsch 301 looks though

[agedhorse]

It's been too long ago for me to remember the details. I kind of remember the original CV's had a red surround too, and they didn't use frame clamps.