Members DBR Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hello Folks, Maybe a stupid question. We have just received a second overhead mic and would like to know how to XY Axis mic placement. Are the microphones actually Criss crossed at the stands or at the mics themselves? The microphones are honkers of a body and they seem to hit each other when placed at their bodies. The model of the mics are AT 2020. I know we can place them spread apart but I have always been advised to XY olverheads. I hope I have made this post clear enough for you kind folks to understand. Thanks :blah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Just to get things started, what are you micing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Overhead for drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Then I wouldn't say X/Y is the standard for overhead drums - at least if you're talking live and fairly close. But who knows? I don't think you could even say the AT2020 is standard for micing live drums. Very often that job goes to small diaphragm condensers like the AT PRO 37 (not too expensive). I use AT4041's which are a little more. There is also the Neumann Km184 if you're not on a budget. Shure also makes a few... like the SM81? (It's late, memory is foggy). And there are also the deals out there, Audiopile has (or used to) some inexpensive ones that apparently are very good. Anyway.... that's not to say that the AT2020 won't work great- I've just never tried it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 That's what we have and that all there is going to be. I am able to spread the mics but not XY them. this works for me, too. Just thought I'd ask. One for an overhead was used for a while and it wasn't bad sounding. Now with two, it's a little different. I think we weill be able to manage the spread jsut fine. thanks. I was just curious about the XY axis. I remember this memntioned from my recording class 30 years ago. Never really tried it and never with huge honking mics either. It was always with the small bodied condensers. Easy to XY. Thanks Shaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 There is a simple description on this page. The idea behind XY is that the capsules are very close together (within 1") to minimize phase cancellations, and that their pickup patterns converge at 90 degrees for a stereo image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 For live use it's more practical to use 2 stands, 1 on each side of the kit. Many times though 1 mic will cover the kit fine, usually centered over the ride cymbal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry007 Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 For live use it's more practical to use 2 stands, 1 on each side of the kit. Many times though 1 mic will cover the kit fine, usually centered over the ride cymbal. These are the options I see used live most often. They do make special mics, clips, stands, etc for doing the x/y thing, but I've never been able to justify the effort/expense, even for the home studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 just do a spaced pair anywhere from 3 to 6 feet apart. i like to point the mics at a weak drum if just using OH but full indy mic'ed kit all bets are off, aim them in the general direction of the cymbals. XY as OH is just silly for live, and i am a huge advocate of coincident pairs. just do a fletcher* pattern instead. doesnt have to be stereo though, so it wouldnt really be a fletcher. *go read about harvey fletcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 I generally prefer a single overhead where I'm filling in a little shimmer. Sounds better and more smooth/even coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 As you've found out, large diaphram condenser mics don't work well in an XY configuration. As stated the idea is to get the two capsules as close as possible to minimize phase cancellation & comb filtering. Either get some small diaphram mics or don't XY. In live sound having seperate mics on each side of the kit allows you to get them closer to the source (thereby also minimizing phase problems and bleed as well). The cymbals don't sound as natural (since it takes distance for their complex harmonic set to come to agreement :-) but it's one of those tradeoffs that happens with live SR. Remember the 3:1 rule (if the source is the same volume and the gain settings are the same, if two mics are 3 times farther apart from each other than they are from their source, you will have minimal phase problems). As stated, sometimes 1 mic, strategicaly placed, works better than 2. I have seen XY used in a live situation but it's usualy where there's very low stage volume (less bleed problems). that's my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR Posted June 23, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 23, 2011 Thank you folks so much for the great advice. I don't qite get the Fletcher placement. Please explain. I am not versed in this method. Sorry to be ignorant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted June 23, 2011 Members Share Posted June 23, 2011 fletcher applies mostly to a spaced stereo pair for recording an ensemble in the free field (or even direct field), but the same principles can be applied to a single instrument in an SR environment. where blumlein proposed a coincident pair, fletcher proposed a spaced pair. basically the pair should be at least 30ms apart and adhere to 3:1. the real reason stereo came about was not for playback - it was to locate german bombers over london. stereo is the father to radar, and while fletcher is often said to be the father of stereo it was alan blumlein that invented it and died in a plane crash testing the early radar systems that allow us to speak english today. basically stick two mics up, point at source. blumeins techniques adhere to a single point in time and use amplitude for localization. fletchers techniques do not adhere to a single point in time and use time for localization. i prefer coincident pairs except in the case of some types of percussion, but as you can see from this thread alone it is a matter of preference and not much else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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