Question about how best to use a Yorkville PS210p

[Louis Schwartz]

I was recently given a Yorkville powered sub. It

[dedmeet]

I have the Pulse PW, which is pretty much the same exact unit with cosmetic changes. Later, they evolved into the LS700P. Surprisingly loud and low-reaching for a 2x10 bandpass sub.

 

 

Assuming I have that right, my main question is whether or not this is going to give us one of the main things I believe running a sub is for: getting the low frequencies out of the tops.

 

 

No, it does not provide any hi-pass capability. I run it now with powered tops that hi-pass themselves.

 

 

If this sub doesn

[Al Poulin]

The PS210P does not have a built-in crossover or high pass outs, so wether you go through it before or after the tops won't make a difference. Since you're using a powered mixer and passive tops, the easiest way to add the sub would probably be to connect everything as usual (powered mixer to tops) and then set the sub to speaker level input and simply send it a 1/4'' line from one of the tops and set the gain accordingly. It is that simple. The sub doesn't draw any power from your powered mixer or affect the overall impedance it ''sees'' at all as it is self powered. You'll probably have to try it out to see if it adds to the type of music you're playing andif its worth taking with you.

 

Al

[Louis Schwartz]

Thank you both. This is very useful and confirms what I suspected. Adding some bottom to the PA for a hundred or so people is more or less what I'd be looking for. We don't play chest-kicking or bone-rattling music. The main thing would be to add more space-filling, rather than bone rattling-bottom than our bassist's small amp can offer in some of the larger rooms we play from time to time--or for when we play outside. The hand-drums are usually loud enough on their own, especially the higher-pitched sounds that come off of their rims and the jingles that some of them have inside, but I thought the sub might also help with their lower-end sounds.

 

As far as the crossover issue is concerned: what about the idea of sending the sub a line-level signal from the pre-EQ out of the M810 and using the low frequency shelving knob on the FOH power amp channel as a "high pass" for the tops? Any real advantage to that?

 

I suppose I'll just try it and see when I get a chance.

 

Louis

[Shaster]

 

The PS210P does not have a built-in crossover or high pass outs, so wether you go through it before or after the tops won't make a difference. Since you're using a powered mixer and passive tops, the easiest way to add the sub would probably be to connect everything as usual (powered mixer to tops) and then set the sub to speaker level input and simply send it a 1/4'' line from one of the tops and set the gain accordingly. It is that simple. The sub doesn't draw any power from your powered mixer or affect the overall impedance it ''sees'' at all as it is self powered. You'll probably have to try it out to see if it adds to the type of music you're playing andif its worth taking with you. Al

 

 

That's funny, you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I'll just add that the YX15's don't do too badly in the bottom end department, so you'll have to see if the added lows of the sub are worth it. It will just dpend on if they're of the quality and manageability you want. Start at a lower sub volume at first, and see if it works for you.

 

And make sure you have the line/speaker switch in the right position before you fire it up.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

That's funny, you took the words right out of my mouth. I'll just add that the YX15's don't do too badly in the bottom end department, so you'll have to see if the added lows of the sub are worth it. It will just dpend on if they're of the quality and manageability you want. Start at a lower sub volume at first, and see if it works for you. And make sure you have the line/speaker switch in the right position before you fire it up.

 

 

That's true about the YX15s--at least for what we do. I've sometimes plugged an acoustic bass guitar into the PA, and that has worked well enough through those speakers. Just trying to see if the sub will add enough to make it, as we've all been saying, worth the schlep and the fuss.

 

Anyway, now that I know I've understood the set-up instructions correctly, I'll just have to try it and see.

 

Anyone have any comments on the idea of using the line out for the sub and the mixer's EQ to get the lows out of the YX15s, as I describe above?

 

Louis

[DBR]

Line out the sub is best. You don't want to power the the sub's amp. Line level is perfect for that application. Then all you need to do is plug the tops from the sub outs. When you EQ a rig, everything gets EQ'd...possibly muddied. Flat usually works best. Boosting frequencies can deliver annoying feedback. What you might consider is a crossover but I don't think that will extend to the tops. It will carry the frequencies down to the sub and tops will remain the same. Be pleased with the sub/top mix. It should be fine.

[Shaster]

 

Anyway, now that I know I've understood the set-up instructions correctly, I'll just have to try it and see. Anyone have any comments on the idea of using the line out for the sub and the mixer's EQ to get the lows out of the YX15s, as I describe above? Louis

 

 

A global line level signal from a powered mixer, is not going to be any different than your speaker out mix. But... if you have an extra post fader Aux send, that would be ideal. Then you just feed the items you pick to go to the sub - such as bass, kick and so on. I do this all the time with a powered mixer/passive tops and sub combo, if I've got an extra post fader send. Note that you really want it post fader not pre fader.

 

In any case, with that particular sub you can use line level or speaker level. Yorkville does that with many of their subs, even the LS2100 beast.

 

I have owned many Yorkville subs over the years, and they do a pretty good job of matching their speaker level and line level ins, when it comes to EQ and audio quality.

[Louis Schwartz]

My idea wasn't so much to send only the low end stuff to the sub (although that suggestion makes a lot of sense), but to keep the low end of the frequencies out of the tops. I assume that whatever I send to the sub, either with a line level signal or the speaker signal, it's only going to reproduce the low end sounds. I was wondering if using the low frequency shelving control on the low M810 just for the speaker signal might help with clarity, working like a HPF so the YX15s don't have to reproduce the low end too. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, just a thought, given that I don't have an actual crossover. I thought of this as a possibility because the sub can either take my speaker signal or a line signal, and the M810 has several different line-level signals it can send--although it doesn't have a post-fader Aux send that could work the way you describe.

 

Louis

[Shaster]

 

My idea wasn't so much to send only the low end stuff to the sub (although that suggestion makes a lot of sense), but to keep the low end of the frequencies out of the tops. I assume that whatever I send to the sub, either with a line level signal or the speaker signal, it's only going to reproduce the low end sounds. I was wondering if using the low frequency shelving control on the low M810 just for the speaker signal might help with clarity, working like a HPF so the YX15s don't have to reproduce the low end too. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, just a thought, given that I don't have an actual crossover. I thought of this as a possibility because the sub can either take my speaker signal or a line signal, and the M810 has several different line-level signals it can send-- although it doesn't have a post-fader Aux send that could work the way you describe. Louis

 

 

Actually the M810 does have a post "fader" send. It doubles as the FX send. So if for some reason you are not using effects, then you can take a signal from the "EFX Out" jack and aux feed your subs that way. I've done this when I've needed post fader monitors for school and dance productions (so the music... fades out with the monitors and mains using one pot).

 

But if you're using effects then yes, you could take a "Pre EQ" line out to your subs and carve some of the low end from your FOH EQ. That is assuming the Pre EQ out jack doesn't cut signal to the power amps.

 

BTW Just in case you don't know, the EQ sliders on the M810 graphs are kind of in the middle of the spectrum. The outer lows and highs are in the pots marked "Lo" and "Hi", which are located right underneath the GEQ. You might want to start experimenting with the "Lo" pot first, because the first low end slider is at 160hz. But your ear should guide you as to what you can cut, and if it makes sense to do it that way.

 

One of the issues with the line out plan could be that you have no GEQ on your subs, but of course you wouldn't have any if you aux fed them. The other thing to consider is that with no 100hz filter on your vocal channels you might find that there's too much vocal in your sub. Try and see, that's the only way to tell.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

Actually the M810 does have a post "fader" send. It doubles as the FX send. So if for some reason you are not using effects, then you can take a signal from the "EFX Out" jack and aux feed your subs that way. I've done this when I've needed post fader monitors for school and dance productions (so the music... fades out with the monitors and mains using one pot). But if you're using effects then yes, you could take a "Pre EQ" line out to your subs and carve some of the low end from your FOH EQ. That is assuming the Pre EQ out jack doesn't cut signal to the power amps. BTW Just in case you don't know, the EQ sliders on the M810 graphs are kind of in the middle of the spectrum. The outer lows and highs are in the pots marked "Lo" and "Hi", which are located right underneath the GEQ. You might want to start experimenting with the "Lo" pot first, because the first low end slider is at 160hz. But your ear should guide you as to what you can cut, and if it makes sense to do it that way. One of the issues with the line out plan could be that you have no GEQ on your subs, but of course you wouldn't have any if you aux fed them. The other thing to consider is that with no 100hz filter on your vocal channels you might find that there's too much vocal in your sub. Try and see, that's the only way to tell.

 

 

Will do! And thanks for the tip about the FX send. Once I can get us into a rehearsal space where I can set things up, I'll start trying my bandmates patience with all the various possibilities and settings.

 

Louis

[dedmeet]

Folks, seriously, are we trying to get this guy to aux feed subs from a little powered head? Why don't we just set up a vDOSC array and a PM5D to mix it all?

 

Honestly, the easiest and best route is mixer -> sub -> tops. It is simple, works, sounds great. I did it for years with great results.

 

In this case, and in 95% of all cases, aux fed subs are an answer looking for a question.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

Folks, seriously, are we trying to get this guy to aux feed subs from a little powered head? Why don't we just set up a vDOSC array and a PM5D to mix it all? Honestly, the easiest and best route is mixer -> sub -> tops. It is simple, works, sounds great. I did it for years with great results. In this case, and in 95% of all cases, aux fed subs are an answer looking for a question.

 

 

I don't think anyone is "trying to get me" to do anything in particular, just trying to help me think through the possibilities with this particular little powered sub and my modest little PA (and your earlier comments were very helpful, by the way). I was just asking about sending a separate line-level signal to the sub so I could EQ the signal going from the power amp to the tops in a way that might be an advantage when I add the sub. If there's no real advantage to that, in this case (or in any case), that's useful to know. It was just a thought, and I'm just trying to understand the various ways in which these components can go together.

 

Tell me a little more about why just going from the M810's power amp to the powered sub (I assume you mean with the speaker cable) and from there to the tops is the best way to do it. What's the exact downside of the separate line-level possibility, and why is sub to tops better than say, tops to sub (which Al suggested earlier, after suggesting that it could go either way, but that maybe tops to sub might be easier logistically).

 

Thanks!

 

Louis

[dedmeet]

Short answers:

 

1. Mixer -> sub -> tops is simple, fast, and easy to do.

2. The sub is unique in that it can accept a speaker-level input and function quite well.

3. Unless I misread, your tops are have 15" LF drivers; unless you go nuts with lows, they can handle it, especially at the M810's power levels.

4. If you go my way, to adjust volume of mains plus subs, you can just turn down the master. If you aux feed, you have two controls to operate to turn up/down the whole system.

 

Forgive me, but I will take simple and stupid every time, especially if it works. I ran a powered head into my PS210P and then on to two Yamaha S115Vs for years with great success in the local bars and dance events.

 

Your system, your call. Either way, good luck, have fun, and share the results.

[Louis Schwartz]

Simple appeals to me as well. In fact, just not wanting to deal with the extra complication of even the simplest way of using it (not to mention the weight of the thing) makes me lean toward selling it. It will have to offer a pretty good enhancement of our sound to make me consider keeping it. I asked about the more complicated way of setting it up in case someone thought it might actually offer some advantage--although I gather from what you say that it's not likely to. And your experience with the S115Vs suggests that it should work well with the YX15s.

 

So we'll see. I want to give it a shot before I decide what to do with it. I will report.

 

Louis

[Leftcoast123]

Louis,

 

If you were given the sub...good score. From what I've read it doesn't appear that your input list and what you're running for your genre is in dire need of a sub but if you incorprate it carefully then it has the possibility of improving what you already have. As you've pointed out...will it be worth the extra cabling, power and transport/movement? That's your call. Dedmeet has it right....with what you're using as a powered mixer and a tiny built-in eq, running at speaker level, either before or after your YX15's is how I'd first implement this sub if I was in the same position.

[dedmeet]

 

So we'll see. I want to give it a shot before I decide what to do with it. I will report.

 

 

This sounds like a wise and sensible plan! Good luck.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

This sounds like a wise and sensible plan! Good luck.

 

 

It was a good score! Our former bassist had the sub and needed to get it out of his living room. He said he didn't want to bother with trying to sell it, so if I wanted to haul it out, I was welcome to it. He thought it might be useful to the guy who's now playing bass. And that guy, who moved over from electric guitar, is also playing the original bass player's upright--although that's just on loan! A very generous and easy-going guy--and a terrific bass-player, too. In fact, he left the band because his skills landed him a nice and well-paying position in a touring band, and he just couldn't make enough of our gigs and rehearsals anymore.

 

In any case, as I said, I'll let you all know how it sounds. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

 

Louis

[Shaster]

 

Folks, seriously, are we trying to get this guy to aux feed subs from a little powered head? Why don't we just set up a vDOSC array and a PM5D to mix it all? Honestly, the easiest and best route is mixer -> sub -> tops. It is simple, works, sounds great. I did it for years with great results. In this case, and in 95% of all cases, aux fed subs are an answer looking for a question.

 

 

I'm quite familiar with this mixer. I've purchased three of them for elementary schools and many of the bands around here rent that particular mixer for casuals. In fact I was just running an M810 last Sunday. It's part of the house system at a funky joint called The Cottage Bistro.

 

It's dead simple to aux feed on many small mixers because that usually means you're not running at extreme volumes and are usually only running one sub. Whether you take a cable from the tops to the sub, or grab a cable from the aux send to the sub it's all the same.

 

Where aux feeding gets complicated IMO is when you must crossover the main signal and the aux signal, and EQ the main signal and EQ the aux signal. And do all this properly because at that point the gig would probably demand proper set up.

 

The biggest reason to aux feed subs when you're doing a small gig with a simple head is that the mic channels on small powered... mixers don't always have 100hz cuts on them. This means that it's really easy (especially with that particular sub) to get too much vocal boom in the subs. Then the band complains "we don't like the sub because it makes a weird rumble"

 

In fact, the only time I usually aux feed subs is when I am faced with simple mixers on combat audio gigs. Then bass and kick get the nod to the subs and everything else stays in the tops.

 

Naturally if you're playing quiet enough, even non HPF vocals in the sub will be okay. So that's why it's important to just try and see what suits the best.