Bi-Phase clone - this looks pretty cool!

[Danhedonia]

If you're "not offended," then you must naturally sound defensive? I agree it's nice when manufacturers come and speak on behalf of their products, but the "if you don't mind having no headroom" and etc. was simply attacking someone for having an opinion you don't care for.

 

Not sure what need that serves, but it doesn't serve my need for good information.

[Phil O'Keefe]

If you're "not offended," then you must naturally sound defensive? I agree it's nice when manufacturers come and speak on behalf of their products, but the "if you don't mind having no headroom" and etc. was simply attacking someone for having an opinion you don't care for.

 

Not sure what need that serves, but it doesn't serve my need for good information.

 

I dunno Dan, I didn't take his responses as overly defensive at all.

 

As far as what he said on headroom, it didn't seem like he was attacking anyone either, although it did come across as a small slight on a potential competitor and their product, which we do try to discourage between builders / companies around here. But the points he made about not being able to control the two phasers independently and so forth with the M5's modeled version are IMHO valid points.

 

Here's what he said

 

Sure, I guess if you want a purely digital approximation with zero headroom and no ability to easily switch on / off each phaser section or change the settings in real time, you could well be happy with the M5. If it sounds good to you, then you could probably sell off all your analog pedals and stick with an all-in-one digital box. As always, let your ears be the judge...

[mike|prophecysound]

Fair enough, I will stick to raw data in future.

 

I can't find info on the M5, however assuming the M13 (for which I could find info) uses the same processing path the maximum input signal is 5V peak to peak before clipping (which is around what I guessed, as these days having 5V supply-based parts for AD/DA conversion is pretty common). The Pi-Phase allows an (approx.) 26V p2p maximum input signal before clipping, so in this case you'll have more than 5x the headroom; this is perhaps not critical for guitar most of the time, but it is critical for outboard processing or line-level instruments.

[Danhedonia]

Raw data's good - one thing I wish builders would consider is the legitimacy of budget constraints for many. We could rehash a lot in the name of 'value' and how one makes compromises, but I recently went from being a corporate sales manager to a teacher, and my perspective has shifted rapidly from "is it good?" to "how can I justify this when I'm buying day old bread at the supermarket?" If someone's feedback is "hey, that's too expensive," how do you feel as a builder?

 

And of course, it's your art - so you must follow and trust your instinct. In my previous life, I bought some stuff that had ludicrous price tags, but they are very special items, and yours looks similarly impressive.

 

Getting back to the pedal, are you insistent on period-correctness? As a fan of what most would call "neo psych" music, I've imagined a pedal that combined phase, a filter sweep, and some sort of really broad-scoped, intense oscillator.

 

And seconding the thanks for showing up to tell us about your work!

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

one thing I wish builders would consider is the legitimacy of budget constraints for many. We could rehash a lot in the name of 'value' and how one makes compromises, but I recently went from being a corporate sales manager to a teacher, and my perspective has shifted rapidly from "is it good?" to "how can I justify this when I'm buying day old bread at the supermarket?" If someone's feedback is "hey, that's too expensive," how do you feel as a builder?

 

And of course, it's your art - so you must follow and trust your instinct. In my previous life, I bought some stuff that had ludicrous price tags, but they are very special items, and yours looks similarly impressive.

 

I think this is a very valid point and a good topic for discussion, although to be fair, I don't think it applies to recreating something as rare and complex as the old Mu-Tron Bi-Phase. There's specific parts required, and it's a large project and complex build... I don't really know how anyone could commercially build them and offer them for sale for much less than that. Plus, it's a very specialized pedal with a narrow and limited potential customer base / market; someone on a budget who wants a phase shifter has lots of budget-friendly options available to them; a Bi-Phase or clone isn't really a viable choice for them, and never has or will be. Same with lots of other high end or rare phasers (and high-end pedals in general) - Lovetone Doppelganger, Empress Phaser, Roland AP-7 Jet Phaser, etc.

 

While nothing short of an original in great shape will do for the hard-core pedal collectors of the world, for someone like me who uses effects as tools not only for my own guitar rig but also for recording, or for a player who uses phase shifting a lot or who really just wants a Bi-Phase badly, a Pi-Phase might actually represent a very good value from a budget perspective - I'd much rather pay $500 for a reproduction of that classic yet long-discontinued tool than four or five times that much for an original that I'd be too afraid to gig with; heck, with a pedal that expensive, I'd even worry it might grow legs and walk away from the studio when I wasn't looking... although considering the size of it, it would be pretty hard to sneak a Bi-Phase out the door without me noticing.

 

[mike|prophecysound]

Raw data's good - one thing I wish builders would consider is the legitimacy of budget constraints for many. We could rehash a lot in the name of 'value' and how one makes compromises' date=' but I recently went from being a corporate sales manager to a teacher, and my perspective has shifted rapidly from "is it good?" to "how can I justify this when I'm buying day old bread at the supermarket?" If someone's feedback is "hey, that's too expensive," how do you feel as a builder?[/quote']

 

The Pi-Phase is about USD475, and a larger and 40-year old second-hand Bi-Phase is around USD2000 these days, so IMO the Pi-Phase is a pretty good deal. The price also reflects being produced (except for the PCB itself) completely here in Adelaide, South Australia:

- the poly labels are made here

- the pedal boxes are milled and powder-coated here

- we use the services of a local pick-and-place outfit

- final assembly is done in the electronic assembly business of one of the Prophecysound co-owners; all his people are very experienced and are paid fairly for their work. I worked with them to nail down the most efficient assembly procedure for the pedal, which - as it has a number of controls - is quite complex to put together correctly

- I personally test, calibrate, package and ship each pedal / dealer order

 

I understand this increases the price, but it also puts back money into our local community. As a company, we also find it important to be able to speak face to face with our service suppliers, and all of these people likely want a decent life and a fair wage.

 

There is also no future in a 'race to the bottom' on pricing. Lots of manufacturers are already cranking out 'cheap' pedals, and the market is saturated in this area.

 

Finally, I see a number of pedals (mainly distortions) being priced around the same mark as the Pi-Phase where they are much simpler designs, and have many fewer parts. In these cases you are likely paying for marketing and / or hype. With Prophecysound stuff, you will always only be paying for a top-quality product that will last a bloody long time and will sound good for many years to come.

 

We understand that the Pi-Phase might not be for everyone, but we are not attempting to appeal to the casual player or people with a smaller budget in this case. However, we do have in the works a 'Pi-Phase mini', a single-channel version of the Pi-Phase mk2, that will be in a lower price bracket; this will deliver the same tone as it's bigger brother, and might appeal more to the 'casual' phaser user. Coming Real Soon Now is a dual distortion / boost that - again - will have a 'lower than Pi-Phase mk2' price range. As a musician, I understand very well that you never really have enough $$$ to get what you want! However, things like the Pi-Phase are kind of in a special class in terms of the relative unavailability of the original and the complexity of the design itself.

 

 

Getting back to the pedal, are you insistent on period-correctness? As a fan of what most would call "neo psych" music, I've imagined a pedal that combined phase, a filter sweep, and some sort of really broad-scoped, intense oscillator.

 

The Pi-Phase mk2 is a bit of an aberration in terms of a product - the other products we have in the works are mostly original designs. We're open to suggestions, however we already have a road map worked out for the months and coming years.

 

Thanks for giving me a platform to vent, HC, heh-heh.

 

 

[mike|prophecysound]

I'd much rather pay $500 for a reproduction of that classic yet long-discontinued tool than four or five times that much for an original that I'd be too afraid to gig with

 

This quote nails in one what we were aiming for, and it's something I've wanted myself for a long time - something you can actually use live. There's little use in having such a great sound be eternally studio-bound, IMO.

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

And yet, if I purchased a Pi-Phase or Bi-Phase, it would spend the vast majority of its lifetime in a studio - that's what I do; far more than I play live.

 

[Danhedonia]

I couldn't imagine someone touring with a $2k pedal - unless the tour is hitting large enough venues that a ruined $2k pedal is no big deal.

 

I guess what I was getting at was a) hell yes, tell us about your awesome project, but also b) since this is a forum, not a magazine ad, please try not to fling poop at those who say "nah, cannae afford it."

 

Still hoping Mike might address my wish for a SuperPhaser. I'm a big fan of A Place to Bury Strangers, and actually got into Death By Audio's approach via Oliver's music, which is backwards from most. I like the way he overaccentuates certain effects while blending with others - except his are ALWAYS about Fuzz and time. I'd like to see something with similar far-out reachiness that incorporates phase and filtering and oscillation.

[skviggel fhank]

EHX recently reissued their bad stone, another great 6 stage analog phaser

[mike|prophecysound]

I guess what I was getting at was a) hell yes, tell us about your awesome project, but also b) since this is a forum, not a magazine ad, please try not to fling poop at those who say "nah, cannae afford it."

 

I don't see countering inaccurate information as 'flinging poop', but as I said I will do it in a way that strictly compares technical information between the two devices. I am sure you might understand it's a bit frustrating if someone who apparently hasn't ever used a Bi-Phase pops up repeatedly saying 'here is a cheap alternative', when actually it's not in sound or function (as just happened again - why isn't this info on another thread?).

 

Still hoping Mike might address my wish for a SuperPhaser. I'm a big fan of A Place to Bury Strangers, and actually got into Death By Audio's approach via Oliver's music, which is backwards from most. I like the way he overaccentuates certain effects while blending with others - except his are ALWAYS about Fuzz and time. I'd like to see something with similar far-out reachiness that incorporates phase and filtering and oscillation.

 

It's not practical to make one-off devices unless someone is willing to pony up a rate per hour (-> expensive), or it's something for which many units can be sold to recoup development costs. Speaking personally, I have built many custom pedals and am sadly a bit past doing it 'for fun'. We've been working on a custom project for here for months now, and frankly it's a PITA solving one-off technical problems where the time sunk into it is never recouped. If you are after a custom project, these days I recommend people visit the DIY forums to see if they can find someone there to do the work for them.

 

I remember part-bartering with Oliver some Skywave CDs for a pedal back in the early 2000s, before he had his own thing going on. Interesting guy.