Need help building my first PA...

[cappttenron]

Go with the box mixer and you will find even if you outgrow it that it will have its uses for the rehearsal space or small gig you don't feel like hauling the bigger system. I'm sure you can find a used unit for a song. I still use my old Carvin for just a throw together jam session or a small party. Two passive speakers and the box and I can throw in the back seat or trunk of the civic. Also very good for when your a little worried about taking your nice stuff somewhere.

[Drummer44]

 

When I saw your user name, I thought for sure your comment was going to be, "Why the heck aren't you mic'ing the drums. Drummers get no love.", or something along those lines.

 

You're suggesting sort of a hybrid system? Power the clubs with an amp and unpowered mixer and then, perhaps, use powered speaker for monitors? I know it's not what you're suggesting, but can you add powered speakers and/or subs to a powered box like the emx-512? It would need to have some sort of passive output, right?

 

 

Naw, we don't mic my kit, that'd put to much "me" I the mix. And drummers who can't play quietly enough for the mix (if necessary) don't need any more love than they give themselves, anyway.

 

Yes, I guess it'd be thought of as a hybrid of some sort. Not sure if you can run powered speakers from a powered mixer; maybe depends on the specific box, with (as you say) an unpowered output.

 

But you CAN run a combination of powered speakers and amp/passive speakers from an unpowered mixer... and that's why I think it'd be easier to eventually grow a system that way... while being able to eventually take advantage of the attributes of powered speakers. For example, add powered monitors first (when you get a round tuit), add powered mains eventually, keep a power amp/club speakers for back-up... etc.

 

I suspect (but don't know) that good used power amps are a dime a dozen these days. I'm less aware about unpowered mixers, but there are some with built-in effects and EQ and so forth. Might find some of those at used prices, too. (Mackie CFX line, for example; Mackie doesn't get lots of love around here these days, so I only point to that as an example, not as a recommendation.)

 

You could eventually add purpose-built crossovers or EQs or whatever to a system like that, too, should they become necessary.

 

-D44

[scottland7]

I think I'm at crossroads. Opinion seems to be mixed and I could probably go with either a powered mixer or a simple amp/mixer combo, especially to start out. I'm going to keep my eyes open for some good deals on decent gear and see where it leads.

 

That said, since I hadn't strongly considered amp/mixer components, a few questions:

 

1. Given the mains I'm building around (Yamaha s115IVs with a 500W program rating), are there some relatively undisputed "go to" models of amps AND mixers that you guys can recommend that can be had on the used market at decent prices? As far as amps, someone earlier mentioned the QSC RMX 1450. I know Crown seems to be an industry standard as well.

 

2. Are there some "must have" features you would recommend in a mixer and amp, especially for a newbie who is looking for simple, reliable and decent quality?

 

3. Technical question...If I want separate EQ/volume control over the mains and monitors, I would need to run in mono and run the mains with one amp and the monitors with the other, right? If I do that, I will be daisy chaining the mains together and the monitors together. That's connecting them in parallel, right? Given my Yammy Clubs with 500W program at 8 ohms, I'm really pushing 4 ohms once I daisy chain them, correct? How much power should I be feeding from the amp to those 2 daisy chained speakers...500W or 1000W?

 

I have lots more questions, but they're really dependent on your responses to the questions above. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help and patience. Believe it or not, I did try to resolve a lot of this on my own by doing tons of reading, but it's a lot to consume.

[Comoxsam]

I think I'm at crossroads. Opinion seems to be mixed and I could probably go with either a powered mixer or a simple amp/mixer combo, especially to start out. I'm going to keep my eyes open for some good deals on decent gear and see where it leads.

 

That said, since I hadn't strongly considered amp/mixer components, a few questions:

 

1. Given the mains I'm building around (Yamaha s115IVs with a 500W program rating), are there some relatively undisputed "go to" models of amps AND mixers that you guys can recommend that can be had on the used market at decent prices? As far as amps, someone earlier mentioned the QSC RMX 1450. I know Crown seems to be an industry standard as well.

 

2. Are there some "must have" features you would recommend in a mixer and amp, especially for a newbie who is looking for simple, reliable and decent quality?

 

3. Technical question...If I want separate EQ/volume control over the mains and monitors, I would need to run in mono and run the mains with one amp and the monitors with the other, right? If I do that, I will be daisy chaining the mains together and the monitors together. That's connecting them in parallel, right? Given my Yammy Clubs with 500W program at 8 ohms, I'm really pushing 4 ohms once I daisy chain them, correct? How much power should I be feeding from the amp to those 2 daisy chained speakers...500W or 1000W?

 

I have lots more questions, but they're really dependent on your responses to the questions above. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help and patience. Believe it or not, I did try to resolve a lot of this on my own by doing tons of reading, but it's a lot to consume.

 

Sounds like you are about to slide down the rabbit hole.

 

If your goal is to keep things REALLY simple then buy the Yamaha EMX powered mixer. It works really well with those speakers. Don't worry about how much power it has. It will work for all your small gigs and probably some bigger stuff too. You will be surprised. Any larger gigs you can rent a bigger system or sound will be provided. The EMX has a basic EQ for your mains and monitors. You'll also have some effects and compression. I believe that unit also has a feedback detection system. All very compact, easy to set up, easy to use and move.

 

If you go the other way with separate amps and mixer you are going to probably need some way of EQing your mains and monitors so you'll have to buy separate EQ's for each of those. Maybe some effects units, compressors, gates, crossovers and more amps (for when you get subs). Oh yeah not to mention a rack to haul all this extra stuff around. Hahaha see how it snowballs?

 

There are some mixers that have some of the above features built-in but the more you research and deliberate over which one suits you best, the more you will be learning and realizing that you really need more and more stuff to do the job "right". At that point your goal of keeping things "simple" is a distant memory OR you will see that to keep things simple, you are better off selling those passive Yamaha speakers and buying some powered ones and a digital mixer. A path that will probably cost you several thousand dollars. You know, because you "need" it. Hahaha......Ask me how I know....LOL!

 

Just be realistic about how far you want to go with all this stuff. A good piece of advice I heard was..."Your PA is a tool for making money, not just an excuse for buying more gear." How many gigs does your band do a year? How much are you getting paid on average? Is better gear going to get you more gigs and pay? Are you a fun party band playing to drunken masses who aren't going to appreciate great sound vs. good sound? Is your audience paying to see you? Etc... If this is just a hobby with the odd paid gig I'd say just get the powered mixer and have fun playing music.

 

FWIW:

 

Some tutorials from the Yamaha site:

 

http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/live_sound/mixers/powered-mixers/emx_box_type/emx512sc/2330/7440/?current_page_id=1&sort=undefined&type=

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[djrnno]

Go digital , it will cost you less and get a better product in the long run

[scottland7]

 

Sounds like you are about to slide down the rabbit hole.

 

If your goal is to keep things REALLY simple then buy the Yamaha EMX powered mixer. It works really well with those speakers. Don't worry about how much power it has. It will work for all your small gigs and probably some bigger stuff too. You will be surprised. Any larger gigs you can rent a bigger system or sound will be provided. The EMX has a basic EQ for your mains and monitors. You'll also have some effects and compression. I believe that unit also has a feedback detection system. All very compact, easy to set up, easy to use and move.

 

If you go the other way with separate amps and mixer you are going to probably need some way of EQing your mains and monitors so you'll have to buy separate EQ's for each of those. Maybe some effects units, compressors, gates, crossovers and more amps (for when you get subs). Oh yeah not to mention a rack to haul all this extra stuff around. Hahaha see how it snowballs?

 

There are some mixers that have some of the above features built-in but the more you research and deliberate over which one suits you best, the more you will be learning and realizing that you really need more and more stuff to do the job "right". At that point your goal of keeping things "simple" is a distant memory OR you will see that to keep things simple, you are better off selling those passive Yamaha speakers and buying some powered ones and a digital mixer. A path that will probably cost you several thousand dollars. You know, because you "need" it. Hahaha......Ask me how I know....LOL!

 

Just be realistic about how far you want to go with all this stuff. A good piece of advice I heard was..."Your PA is a tool for making money, not just an excuse for buying more gear." How many gigs does your band do a year? How much are you getting paid on average? Is better gear going to get you more gigs and pay? Are you a fun party band playing to drunken masses who aren't going to appreciate great sound vs. good sound? Is your audience paying to see you? Etc... If this is just a hobby with the odd paid gig I'd say just get the powered mixer and have fun playing music.

 

FWIW:

 

Some tutorials from the Yamaha site:

 

http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/live_sound/mixers/powered-mixers/emx_box_type/emx512sc/2330/7440/?current_page_id=1&sort=undefined&type=

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A very helpful and informative post. Thanks for that. I especially appreciate the link to the set up tutorial. I came across that video a while back, but it was much more meaningful this go around simply because I'm a more informed and understand the language and technology a little more.

 

While I was considering taking the leap into building a component system, I really think it's more than I can handle at the moment and it seems the powered box will do the trick as a start up. I am particularly encouraged by the fact the you have first experience with almost the exact set-up that I am contemplating and have been happy with it. I think I'm moving in that direction.

 

Can you (or anyone) answer my #3 question above, especially regarding whether the power requirements for speakers that are daisy chained are cumulative? Will my pair of S115IV mains with a 500W program rating need an amp that pushes 500W or 1000W (since I'm running a pair together) to be well-matched?

 

Also, I'm considering 10" or 12" passive monitors that typically handle more like 200-300W program. They, of course, would be daisy chained as well. Will this EMX-512SC be a good match for them also? What has me a little confused is there is so much info out there about the amp needing to be 1.5 to 2x the power of the program rating of the speaker, I suppose so the amp has plenty of headroom and doesn't have to work so hard to give the speakers their 500W. But I was cautioned early on in this thread to consider amps that push a little less that what my speaker handles because of my lack of experience dealing with sound.

 

Finally, in your experience, is there an advantage or disadvantage to a table top mixer like the EMX-5000-12 as compared to the EMX-512SC box mixer?

[dedmeet]

OP, just some food for thought: since you have four of the s115 cabs, you can point two at the crowd as mains and use two as slightly oversize monitors using an 'acoustical alignment block' - i.e., a chunk of 2x4.

 

Once decent little digital mixer (DL1608, X32 rack, XR18, Q-mix), and one power amp would be small, easy to operate, has all the processing you would need for now, and room to add more monitor mixes and such later via more power amps or powered cabs.

[scottland7]

OP, just some food for thought: since you have four of the s115 cabs, you can point two at the crowd as mains and use two as slightly oversize monitors using an 'acoustical alignment block' - i.e., a chunk of 2x4.

 

Once decent little digital mixer (DL1608, X32 rack, XR18, Q-mix), and one power amp would be small, easy to operate, has all the processing you would need for now, and room to add more monitor mixes and such later via more power amps or powered cabs.

 

Thanks dedmeet, but I actually only have two of the S115IV mains at this time and am building from there. I'm not sure I follow the "acoustical alignment block" idea. You would run monitors through one channel and mains through the other (in mono)? Is the thought that I can begin to build something that is scalable in baby steps without much sacrifice or fuss?

[wesg]

An acoustical alignment block is a piece of wood used to change the direction speakers placed on the ground will point.

 

If I was in your shoes, I would buy a real nice power amp and a digital mixer. And some nice powered speakers to use as monitors.

 

Wes

[dbMontana]

An acoustical alignment block is a piece of wood used to change the direction speakers placed on the ground will point.

 

If I was in your shoes, I would buy a real nice power amp and a digital mixer. And some nice powered speakers to use as monitors.

 

Wes

 

+1 If it were me as well.

[dedmeet]

Big +1

 

My bad, OP, I thought your had two pairs of Yammies. The good news is that there are lots of good choices for powered monitors, or, if you find a slamming deal on some passive monitors, you can run your tops off one side of the amp and your monitors on the other. No need to run stereo 99.99% of the time.

[Comoxsam]

Can you (or anyone) answer my #3 question above, especially regarding whether the power requirements for speakers that are daisy chained are cumulative? Will my pair of S115IV mains with a 500W program rating need an amp that pushes 500W or 1000W (since I'm running a pair together) to be well-matched?

 

Also, I'm considering 10" or 12" passive monitors that typically handle more like 200-300W program. They, of course, would be daisy chained as well. Will this EMX-512SC be a good match for them also? What has me a little confused is there is so much info out there about the amp needing to be 1.5 to 2x the power of the program rating of the speaker, I suppose so the amp has plenty of headroom and doesn't have to work so hard to give the speakers their 500W. But I was cautioned early on in this thread to consider amps that push a little less that what my speaker handles because of my lack of experience dealing with sound.

 

Finally, in your experience, is there an advantage or disadvantage to a table top mixer like the EMX-5000-12 as compared to the EMX-512SC box mixer?

 

The EMX512 has two amplifiers and you can configure them for Main L + R or Main L+R and Monitor. There are four speaker connections on the rear (2 for each amp) so you don't have to daisy chain. (You can if you wish). Take a look at the manual online for info on all the types of connections. The unit is meant to run two mains and two monitors. Notice the speakers they are using in the video are S115V's. The literature also states that their YSP is meant to be used with their Club series speakers (the ones you have). If you need more monitors there is always the option to hook up powered speakers as well.

 

The amount of power supplied by the internal amps isn't a perfect match for the program rating of the 15" speakers (it's a little low) but I can tell you that it gets plenty loud for small gigs. We used that set-up in pubs/bars that held up to 120 people or so and even small halls too. The amps match up better with the 12" Clubs I believe. I included a link to another thread from another forum that might answer your question better.

 

In regards to the table top vs. the box type mixer I guess that is a personal preference kind of thing. The box takes up less room and can be placed on top of guitar or bass amps which is what we used to do. This is very helpful on small stages. The EMX5000-12 is a fair bit more complex in terms of features etc. If you want to go down that road you should probably make the jump and look at powered speakers and a different mixer instead. I thought you said you really needed something dead simple? Hahaha!

 

We've used our EMX box mixer and Club speakers for countless numbers of parties, weddings, etc. It has always sounded good and provided tons of fun and great memories. It is super basic to use, limited in what it can do, and pretty boring if you are really interested live sound. It isn't a huge layout of cash though either, so it's probably a perfect starter PA for those wanting simple, easy, and good sound.

 

[scottland7]

Thanks Comoxsam. I do like the idea of "dead simple" and am really leaning towards the EMX-512. I have continued to read and check out craiglist to see what's out there. I came across an EMX-5016 which appears to be feature laden and adds some flexibility (switchable power levels, etc.). The knock on it in a number of reviews is the inability to EQ the monitors, I guess to deal with potential feedback issues. Not sure what to make of that.

 

Then, I came across a Peavey XR1212. The more I read about it, the more I liked. What I appreciate most is that the technology seems to be used to make it simpler and a little more foolproof to operate. It also seems like a decent compromise that will allow for more flexibility to build onto it by adding subs, etc. It just seems it was built with lots of features that actually make it easier to use and a little more automated (auto EQ, etc.)

 

Thoughts (other than, "Make a decision already!")?

[WRGKMC]

My friends band uses the an EMX512 with a set of newer Yamaha cabs. I do have an older set of Yamaha cabs similar to yours and I have run both sets off the same head and it does a pretty good job for vocals and maybe a little miced guitar through them. It really cant handle much bass or drums on its own. The vocals begin to break up if you try and push too much low end.

 

They eventually bought a pair of crown heads, one for monitors and one for subs and are able to mic the full band now to moderate levels with more then enough volume for medium sized clubs.

 

If you're going to be doing your own sound, then a powered mixer is a good way to go. If you plan on having a sound man at some point then, you really need sliders for mixing, even if its a powered desktop. Volume Knobs are pretty much set and forget. If you try and use them mixing you not only wear them out quickly but you can only twist a couple of those small knobs at the same time. Sliders on the other hand allow you to make multiple slider adjustments at the same time with a single finger on each one. The board is laid out so things can be seen easily too.

 

You can always add additional power heads and cabs or powered cabs if needed if and when you need more power (or rent a big system) you just have to decide if you'll be running your own sound most of the time and go with it.

[scottland7]

Yes, WRGKMC, this is a start up system for a 4 -5 piece band that will be providing its own sound including 2-3 vocal mics and 2-3 instrument mics. I never really considered the convenience of the sliders on a desktop board. Thanks for the input.

 

The only feature the XR1212 does not have that might be missed is compression. The Yamaha mixers under consideration have that feature. For those more experienced sound folks out there, how critical is compression? We have a vocalist who belts and I'm thinking it might be a good thing for the audience and the speakers to have some built in "leveling".

[WRGKMC]

Yes, WRGKMC, this is a start up system for a 4 -5 piece band that will be providing its own sound including 2-3 vocal mics and 2-3 instrument mics. I never really considered the convenience of the sliders on a desktop board. Thanks for the input.

 

The only feature the XR1212 does not have that might be missed is compression. The Yamaha mixers under consideration have that feature. For those more experienced sound folks out there, how critical is compression? We have a vocalist who belts and I'm thinking it might be a good thing for the audience and the speakers to have some built in "leveling".

 

You wont need it for guitars and vocals. Guitars are already compressed when driven and by their speakers. The main item they are good for is low end stuff like drums and bass to prevent large transients that from blowing your woofers into chunks. If need be, you could always pick up a stereo rack comp and run it on the inserts for the kick and bass mics.

 

Comps can sometimes help a little on a weak singer that doesn't know how to work a mic well and needs a more consistent volume level but on the trade off is it can easily become a feedback nightmare when improperly set and actually reduce volume levels if set to minimize feedback.

 

If you're doing mostly vocals, you'll probably be better off without it and just having your people work a mic properly. If you were all beginners who tend to be afraid of a mic and back off, a compressor can sometimes help. A hand held condenser would likely be a better solution however.

 

More experienced singers will use the mic's proximity effect to their advantage to get louder volume when singing softly and back off when belting out. Compression can actually screw a good singers mic technique by keeping the volume the same. I come across that allot doing studio work where you need to keep a consistent volume level for mixing purposes. I do use one in my live rack with very mild settings. Its an oddball comp which lets me pass the high frequencies dry and only clamp down on the lows. I find this works much better then having a full frequency compression.

 

More importantly I do use its built in gate (many rack comps have a gate built in) It can cuts down on stage noise when the band stops playing by clamping the volume down like a mute switch. It again is one of those items that can cause more harm then good. If set too hard it can sound like your words are being chopped off, and set too soft its gating can constantly flicker on and off and be very annoying.

 

Used moderately it can block stage conversations from the mic, block wind noise outdoors, and block some choice words you have for a player who screwed that last song which shouldn't be heard by the audience.

[nchangin]

XR1212 has 80 hz cut filer on each channel it appears, the yamaha doesn't from what I see. Not sure why they would cut that maybe substitute comp for that? I always use 80 hz cut on vocal mics to cut out the rumbles and helps with feedback issues....

 

It's a peavey, they are normally pretty honest with their power ratings being real. Peavey has more channel eq options.

[nchangin]

We have a vocalist who belts and I'm thinking it might be a good thing for the audience and the speakers to have some built in "leveling".

 

Record a live performance so he can hear and see himself/herself belt/blast, comps don't fix singers, subtle leveling at best, it's nice to have a comp to cut back the peaks for singer NOOBS but in your case and most cases better to correct the behavior than try to "fix it" with hardware.