Budget Cables Questions

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by madjack

If you want to monitor the foh mix or any of the group mixes from the Rac Pac you could use a trs to trs cable from the headphone out on the rac pac into the line input on the rolls and set the jumper to stereo.

Hey, I know you posted this a few weeks ago, but I am going to be using this setup for the first time tomorrow. I didn't have all the stuff I needed to use it on any of our previous gigs, but I am ready to try it out tomorrow with admittedly not great buds and not custom fitted just to sort of get my feet wet and seeing if I like IEMs before investing $400.00 + the price for custom molds. Anyway, To respond to that part of your post above, I spoke to the tech support over at Rolls and they cautioned me about using the headphone out of my mixer because he said it will be a VERY HOT signal. He said it might be workable if I set the headphone output volume on the mixer very low because otherwise it would probably be very distorted in the buds.

Also, lol Mark, I had NO IDEA a few weeks ago that you were the guy I spoke to on the phone and who helped me out. Anyway, I will post here after tomorrow and let you guys know how this whole mess worked out for me.

[ChiroVette]

Got another question with regards to using the IWI cables for IEM setups. Bottom line is I was so impressed with how the makeshift-wired IEM setups worked on the first gig we used them that I ordered another station (Rolls headpone amp, mic stand adapter, and the Elite Core bodypack and cable combination). Anyway, I had one problem the first night using the setup that would be compounded by using yet another station (3 in total so far) and that is that my current mixer has 6 aux sends, but really it only has four since apparently aux send 3 and 4 can be toggled to be 5 and 6. Not sure what in the hell that is supposed to be useful for lol but whatever.

Suffice it to say that my alleged 6 aux send mixer only really has four Aux send knobs, so really I can only use four at a time, one of which (Aux 3) I am using for effects. Obviously this won't be a problem when I buy the 24 channel Presonus with its nice and robust TEN aux sends.

But for now I am officially out of monitor sends. Last gig I used aux 1 for my IEM, Aux 2 for the rhythm guitarist's IEM, Aux 3 for the effects, and Aux 4 for the two wedges, which I daisy-chained. The problem was I had asked the keyboard player to bring his powered Eon monitor, which I never even got to hook up because I didn't have the Aux send for it. Well I do have 6 jacks in the back of the mixer (Aux 1 through 6) but I wasn't sure if they would have been any use to me in that capacity of monitor sends, particularly with no Aux 5 and 6 knobs on each of the channel strips (unless I switched them) with the toggle.

Anyway, I got to thinking. Since the aux sends on my current mixer are all balanced, mono 1/4", line level outs, can I use a device like this to split, say Aux 1 into four different IEM heaphone amps?

http://www.samash.com/p/Galaxy-Audio...tter_-49998400

Seems to me that this might be the answer to my prayers. The beauty of this (if it works) is that each of the IEM setups I have has TWO "more me" knobs for both the vocal mic and instruments to pass through on their way to the board. So even if I theoretically send all 3 (or even 4) IEMs the same mix, then each band member could add more of their own vocal and own instrument to their personal mix without me having to change anything at the mixer. Obviously one possible glitch would be if the musicians can't agree on a global Aux mix, but I doubt that will be an issue.

Of course, this brings up the issue of WHAT freaking cables I should use? I would assume, again if this is a workable plan, that a standard mono, balanced TS cable (regular instrument cable) could go from the aux of the mixer into the device above (assuming it is compatible with this setup. I am not sure!) and that I would then use the same format cables to go from the splitter box into each of the Rolls headphone amp's line input?

Thanks again everyone!

I will probably call Mark and Liz again tomorrow and order more cables from them for this.

Edit: Okay I just noticed something. That Galaxy JIBS unit has TRS inputs and outputs. Ugh! So does that mean that I can't simply pass a TS signal through it? Would there be some kind of a compatibility issue between TS input from the Aux send and the Input of the headphone amp?

[agedhorse]

TRS box will pass TS signals BUT... you said the aux outputs were balanced (I don;t think you are using the terminology properly but that's another issue) which would require TRS.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

TRS box will pass TS signals BUT... you said the aux outputs were balanced (I don;t think you are using the terminology properly but that's another issue) which would require TRS.

The more I learn, the more confused I get, to be quite honest. Before I knew ANYTHING, I was not confused at all. lol

Okay, I thought that Mark, on the phone, and someone in this thread had told me that the Aux sends on my mixer (Soundcraft Spirit Folio Rac Pac) were all balanced, mono, 1/4", TS...etc etc lol. Is that wrong, Aged?

[W. M. Hellinger]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Okay, I thought that Mark, on the phone, and someone in this thread had told me that the Aux sends on my mixer (Soundcraft Spirit Folio Rac Pac) were all balanced, mono, 1/4", TS...etc etc lol. Is that wrong, Aged?

maybe this?

Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger

Points of clarification, if I undersand my research correctly:

The 6 Aux outputs on a Spirit Folio Rac Pac appear to be 1/4" TRS balanced (which parallels what I recall from a decade or more when I owned and used this same model of board). Aux 3-6 are noted as being the same as aux 1 & 2 shown on the block diagram schematic.

The Line In 1/4" TRS jack of the Rolls PM351 is configured as unbalanced mono or unbalanced stereo (depending on the positioning of the jumper block).

[ChiroVette]

Okay, lol confused again. I thought that the Aux sends were mono and balanced or "TS" but you're saying that they are TRS? Isn't TRS stereo? Sorry about the dumb questions, but I am still not sure if my idea above is viable or not.

I also have a strong feeling that Aged is right and I am not using the terminology properly.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

but you're saying that they are TRS? Isn't TRS stereo?

Maybe this?

Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger

Yes, per exactly... the seeming common confusion concerning TRS balanced vs. TRS unbalanced stereo vs. TRS inserts, etc... being the same jack but different functions.

[ChiroVette]

Mark, I think you are imagining me perhaps to be more knowledgeable about this subject than I actually am. I have absolutely no idea what you are saying or how that answers any of my questions, to be quite honest.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Mark, I think you are imagining me perhaps to be more knowledgeable about this subject than I actually am. I have absolutely no idea what you are saying or how that answers any of my questions, to be quite honest.

When it comes to TRS connectors, the type of that connector in relationship to it's application could be a multitude of things, including:

1) TRS balanced, where typically this is a MONO signal, tip is phase forward, ring is phase reverse, the sleeve is ground.

2) TRS stereo unbalanced: Stereo, left + on tip, right + on ring, common (ground) on sleeve.

3) TRS insert: Send commonly on tip, return commonly on ring, sleeve common (ground).

4) TRS microwave thermometer probe: I don't remember how it's commonly (?) wired, but it's a 1/4" TRS connection and connects to the insides of a microwave oven... and probably shouldn't be used for audio purposes.

5) TRS airplane communication headphone microphone/headset: I believe typically the headset is wired to the tip, and the mic is wired to the ring, and the sleeve is common... but check the manual before using.

6) TRS skeet-shoot triggering device: Again, I suggest checking the manual to determine with wiring scheme, but none of this stuff should likely be well served plugged into audio gear... unless you're doing a Plasmatics tribute show or some such thing.

Oh yea... and I think there's some RC cars or maybe Peg Preggo kiddie go-cart stuff that used TRS connections for connecting the power supplies to the gadgets... all sorts of stuff over the ages that have used 1/4" TRS connections. The plus side to 1/4" TRS connectors: They're fairly cheap, work so-so ok, and can be populated densely. The down side: Lots of different applications, check your operator's manual to confirm function before plugging in.

[agedhorse]

see above.

[ChiroVette]

Thanks for the info guys!

Okay I am going to read Mark's post a few more times to try to get a better understanding of what he explained to me. In the meantime, what are your thoughts for the practical needs I have which I raised in post #52 of this thread? I am going to guess, based on what you guys are saying, that:

1. The unit I linked to should be fine for the purpose I asked about?
2. Should I stay with "regular instrument cables" all around? Meaning 1 "guitar cable" from an Aux send into the slitter, and three or four "guitar cables" from the splitter into each of three or four four headphone amps?
3. While we're at it, can a line level TRS mono (balanced?) signal from an Aux send be split into four headphone amps without any kind of issue, not the least of which being some form of signal degrading?

Finally, here is a million dollar question which has been stewing in my brain: Why, in the name of everything holy, do I have SIX aux sends and only four Aux knobs on each channel? If I am using one of the aux sends (in this case Aux 3) for effects then can I use aux sends for extra monitor mixes, albeit without having ANY control over the relative levels of say 5 & 6 (if I am toggled to the knobs assigned to Aux 3 & 4)?

[W. M. Hellinger]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Finally, here is a million dollar question which has been stewing in my brain: Why, in the name of everything holy, do I have SIX aux sends and only four Aux knobs on each channel?

Because: Marketing fluff oftentimes works, and/or few read the fine print until all else fails (when at first you don't succeed, and you've asked those around you... and it still ain't woking... read the owner's manual... generally this happens after you bought the device).

Why in the name of everything holy would my guitar have two pickups, and a volume pot for each pickup, and a third pot to pan between the two pickups? And on top of that: a three way switch to switch between the two pots?

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Finally, here is a million dollar question which has been stewing in my brain: Why, in the name of everything holy, do I have SIX aux sends and only four Aux knobs on each channel? If I am using one of the aux sends (in this case Aux 3) for effects then can I use aux sends for extra monitor mixes, albeit without having ANY control over the relative levels of say 5 & 6 (if I am toggled to the knobs assigned to Aux 3 & 4)?

 

The 5/6 shift function allows use of the aux's for multi effects for recording purposes mostly.

[ChiroVette]

Okay thanks guys.

But WHAT about what I am trying to do as I posted above? lol

[agedhorse]

If your IEMs can take a balanced input, use TRS and remain balanced throughout. You can use TRS to XLR to get into IEM transmitters that do not have a TRS input.

[Miko Man]

CV: A regular "guitar cable" is TS, and therefore is unbalanced. TRS is what is being suggested.

TS stands for "tip"/"sleeve"; there are only two conductors (wires) in the attached cable.

TRS is "tip"/"ring"/"sleeve"; there are (can be) three conductors in the cable.

If you are placing an order with Liz and Mark, you might consider ordering a TS connector and a TRS connector (unwired; just the plug) as a reference to visualize the difference in external appearances and internal construction. I know that the visual aid of actually having the real thing in my hands helps me "get" the how and why of mechanical items. Mark C.

[ChiroVette]

Okay, something is odd here. Before all this talk about splitters, Mark and I had resolved that I should use a standard guitar cable to go from the Aux send of the mixer to the headphone amp (okay actually it was Mark who solved the problem and I just placed the order lol)

So I ordered a pair of 15' EWI guitar cables for the purpose. They at least seemed to me to work fine and I had a mono signal sent to both my ear buds and the rhythm guitarist's. As a reminder, though, I used too many aux sends, and now adding a third IEM, I would have no more aux sends for the wedges since I am using Aux 3 for the effects, at least until I get the 24 channel SL mixer.

So what changes by putting a splitter? Shouldn't I just be able to use the 4 way splitter like this one so that I can use one Aux send for four IEM's, one for effects, and have two for the wedges without changing the cable configurations Mark had already recommended?

http://www.samash.com/p/Galaxy-Audio...tter_-49998400

[madjack]

 

Originally Posted by madjack

The Aux sends on your Rac Pac are mono balanced sends. For standard performance monitoring I think your best bet would be to use a standard ts instrument cable from the aux send of the rac pac to the line input on the Rolls and switch the line input jumper to mono. You won't have a balanced send, but you should be able to hear the mix from both earphones and still use the mic and instrument inputs on the Rolls. If you want to monitor the foh mix or any of the group mixes from the Rac Pac you could use a trs to trs cable from the headphone out on the rac pac into the line input on the rolls and set the jumper to stereo.

 

For a review on trs vs ts reread from #26 - 40. As for the splitter you referenced; just use ts cables from the rac pac to the splitter, and from the splitter to the rolls units. Should work fine.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

So I ordered a pair of 15' EWI guitar cables for the purpose. They at least seemed to me to work fine and I had a mono signal sent to both my ear buds and the rhythm guitarist's. As a reminder, though, I used too many aux sends, and now adding a third IEM, I would have no more aux sends for the wedges since I am using Aux 3 for the effects, at least until I get the 24 channel SL mixer.

So what changes by putting a splitter? Shouldn't I just be able to use the 4 way splitter like this one so that I can use one Aux send for four IEM's, one for effects, and have two for the wedges without changing the cable configurations Mark had already recommended?

http://www.samash.com/p/Galaxy-Audio...tter_-49998400

If I'm following your explaination correctly, and you need more than 4 aux send out of a functionally 4 aux send board, then you probably need a different board... being something that's capable of more than 4 aux sends staight-up. Adding aux sends post board is difficult and probably not cost effective.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger

If I'm following your explaination correctly, and you need more than 4 aux send out of a functionally 4 aux send board, then you probably need a different board... being something that's capable of more than 4 aux sends staight-up. Adding aux sends post board is difficult and probably not cost effective.

Absolutely! This is not meant as a permanent solution. Hopefully by the first few weeks of the new year I will have the 24 channel StudioLive mixer and the new PA, but this is meant as a sort of a working-bridge between the gear I have and the gear I am getting. This is why I am being VERY careful not to invest in expensive "transient gear" to get me through the next few shows. It is also why I spent a good chunk of change on your cables, Mark, because while I needed that gear, it is not "transient" and I will simply transfer it over to the new PA when I get it.

That said, the Galaxy unit (assuming it works) is, again, a sort of stop-gap measure to allow me to have 3-4 IEM mixes that sound good while still leaving me two full Aux Sends for two my MR805 wedges (Daisychained together) and the JBL Eon that my sometimes-keyboard-player likes to use as his monitor.

Does this make more sense?

[ChiroVette]

Here is a question regarding cabling and the wired IEM setups I concocted:

I need to order some more cabling for both a third and possibly a fourth wired IEM station and was about to just order the same instrument cables from Audiopile that I had to go from the Aux Sends to the heaphone amps. However, it just occurred to me that I am upgrading to the Presonus 24 channel mixer soon and I may only be doing one or two more shows with my mixer and speakers. So before I go invest more money into cables, will the same Instrument cables I ordered for my current IEM setups (The GSSC instrument cables) work on the Presonus aux sends as well? I want to make sure that the Presonus has the same type of aux sends as my current Soundcraft Rac Pac.

Thanks!

[StratGuy22]

Can the keyboard player run a line to a small guitar amp or his wedge for a "me only" keyboard signal?

Our keyboard player has a wedge, but she also uses a small amp behind her for "more me"

[StratGuy22]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Here is a question regarding cabling and the wired IEM setups I concocted:

I need to order some more cabling for both a third and possibly a fourth wired IEM station and was about to just order the same instrument cables from Audiopile that I had to go from the Aux Sends to the heaphone amps. However, it just occurred to me that I am upgrading to the Presonus 24 channel mixer soon and I may only be doing one or two more shows with my mixer and speakers. So before I go invest more money into cables, will the same Instrument cables I ordered for my current IEM setups (The GSSC instrument cables) work on the Presonus aux sends as well? I want to make sure that the Presonus has the same type of aux sends as my current Soundcraft Rac Pac.

Thanks!

The aux sends are balanced 1/4" on the SL24.4.2 and take a TRS cable.