Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 The Aux sends on your Rac Pac are mono balanced sends. For standard performance monitoring I think your best bet would be to use a standard ts instrument cable from the aux send of the rac pac to the line input on the Rolls and switch the line input jumper to mono. You won't have a balanced send, but you should be able to hear the mix from both earphones and still use the mic and instrument inputs on the Rolls. If you want to monitor the foh mix or any of the group mixes from the Rac Pac you could use a trs to trs cable from the headphone out on the rac pac into the line input on the rolls and set the jumper to stereo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack The Aux sends on your Rac Pac are mono balanced sends. For standard performance monitoring I think your best bet would be to use a standard ts instrument cable from the aux send of the rac pac to the line input on the Rolls and switch the line input jumper to mono. You won't have a balanced send, but you should be able to hear the mix from both earphones and still use the mic and instrument inputs on the Rolls. If you want to monitor the foh mix or any of the group mixes from the Rac Pac you could use a trs to trs cable from the headphone out on the rac pac into the line input on the rolls and set the jumper to stereo. Thanks! I just tried to call Rolls before reading your post because I was concerned about the fact that I just had confirmed the fact that I have mono aux sends (didn't know about the balanced lol) and my concern was that I would be sending a mono signal into a stereo Line Input. But I just pulled up the pdf manual and as you said, it shows the jumper for mono/stereo, otherwise I would have had to use an adapter. I was told by a friend, not to use a standard guitar cable, though, but I am not 100% sure why? So basically I have to call Audiopile and ask them to change that part of my order, because I ordered two TRA 1/4 to 1/4, when apparently I should have just ordered "Tip Sleeve" and hahaha now I am confused. By the way, what do you mean when you say I won't have a balanced send? Does that mean the sound will be crap or disproportionate in one ear or unbalanced as far as the mix? Also, I was planning on using a post fade aux for my line input in order to kind of monitor the house mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 You can email them too. I basically just described what I had in mind and he'll make sure your both on the same page with a couple of return emails and give you a price before he actually makes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Most budget to mid-sized desks have mono aux sends, so that's not a problem. Generally speaking, if a desk has balanced outputs, such as xlr or trs sends, it is preferable to use balanced line to reduce noise from interference. Since your Rolls unit won't allow balanced input on the line in you must use either stereo or unbalanced (ts). You could use an adapter and run both aux 1&2 outputs into a y-cable and use your line input in stereo, but it wouldn't gain anything for you really and would be more connections to cause problems. Plugging a ts 1/4" jack into the aux out on your RacPac simply ties the ring and sleeve outputs together, which is a standard method of converting from balanced to unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack Most budget to mid-sized desks have mono aux sends, so that's not a problem. Generally speaking, if a desk has balanced outputs, such as xlr or trs sends, it is preferable to use balanced line to reduce noise from interference. Since your Rolls unit won't allow balanced input on the line in you must use either stereo or unbalanced (ts). You could use an adapter and run both aux 1&2 outputs into a y-cable and use your line input in stereo, but it wouldn't gain anything for you really and would be more connections to cause problems. Plugging a ts 1/4" jack into the aux out on your RacPac simply ties the ring and sleeve outputs together, which is a standard method of converting from balanced to unbalanced. I agree about trying to make this stereo. In the first place, this mixer "supposedly" has 6 aux sends, but because 5 and 6 seem to be interchangeable with 3 and 4 with a button push, that really means that there are four aux sends, and since one of them is for effects (Aux 3) that only leaves me 3 auxes for monitors (God, I can't wait to get my better mixer!) so lol stereo IEMs at this point would be absurd for me. I am a little confused with your conversion statement. I was told by the tech support at Rolls that if I used a TRS cable to go from the Aux send that it would cause problems. He mentioned that it would short out the signal to one ear and could possibly damage the ear buds? Also, a buddy of mine said that this wasn't true, BUT that if I used a TRS cable to go from the Aux send to the Line Input (jumped to mono) that I would get a very out of phase signal to the headphones? I am a little confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette By the way, what do you mean when you say I won't have a balanced send? Does that mean the sound will be crap or disproportionate in one ear or unbalanced as far as the mix? Also, I was planning on using a post fade aux for my line input in order to kind of monitor the house mix. Balanced sends use an inverted signal along with the normal signal to cancel noise picked up by the cable; this allows for much longer cable runs. Unbalanced line can pick up noise, which can become noticable on long cable runs (longer than 15-20'). In general practice, I have never had any problems with line level signals running unbalanced at modest distances of under 100'. Pre-fade or post-fade send doesn't affect whether the line is balanced or not, as all the aux sends on the Rac Pac are balanced, according to the manual I found online. Also, according to the Rolls manual I found, using the jumpers to set your line input to mono should put the signal into both earphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack Balanced sends use an inverted signal along with the normal signal to cancel noise picked up by the cable; this allows for much longer cable runs. Unbalanced line can pick up noise, which can become noticable on long cable runs (longer than 15-20'). In general practice, I have never had any problems with line level signals running unbalanced at modest distances of under 100'. Pre-fade or post-fade send doesn't affect whether the line is balanced or not, as all the aux sends on the Rac Pac are balanced, according to the manual I found online. Also, according to the Rolls manual I found, using the jumpers to set your line input to mono should put the signal into both earphones. Okay cool, thanks! But was the tech wrong when he said absolutely not to use a 1/4" TRS to TRS cable to go from the Aux send to the Line input of the Rolls? Because if he was right, then I need to call Audiopile and tell them not to send me the two TRS cables but that instead I need "Tip Sleev" 1/4 inch cables? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette I am a little confused with your conversion statement. I was told by the tech support at Rolls that if I used a TRS cable to go from the Aux send that it would cause problems. He mentioned that it would short out the signal to one ear and could possibly damage the ear buds? Also, a buddy of mine said that this wasn't true, BUT that if I used a TRS cable to go from the Aux send to the Line Input (jumped to mono) that I would get a very out of phase signal to the headphones? I am a little confused. Not having either unit in front of me, or having a schematic for either unit in front of me, I can't say exactly how the two units are set up, but from looking at the manuals for both units, and from what you say the Rolls tech said, you should be okay just using a ts cable from the aux out on the rac pac to the line in on the Rolls and switching the jumper to mono. The Rolls operating manual specifies the trs jacks are for stereo, which you are not using, and mono lines should be ts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack Not having either unit in front of me, or having a schematic for either unit in front of me, I can't say exactly how the two units are set up, but from looking at the manuals for both units, and from what you say the Rolls tech said, you should be okay just using a ts cable from the aux out on the rac pac to the line in on the Rolls and switching the jumper to mono. The Rolls operating manual specifies the trs jacks are for stereo, which you are not using, and mono lines should be ts. Ah okay. I asked because I don't think I have any TS cables. I have a ton of guitar cables, but I was told by a buddy NOT to use guitar cables in a place that needs TS. Not sure why, because I thought a standard guitar (instrument) cable was TS. lol Shows how much I know! So I now have to call back Audiopile and change my order or at least that small part of it. They shouldn't be too pissed. Between 6 of the Premium XLR's, two 13 gauge 1/4" speaker cables, and the two TRS cables, I gave them a $200.00+ order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you have no need for the trs cables from Audiopile, then by all means ask them to change the order to ts cables. But as I stated earlier, you could monitor the foh mix or one of the group mixes on the rac pac by using the headphone output on the rac pac and running it via trs-trs into the line input on your Rolls set to stereo. Using a group mix would allow you to set up a pseudo seperate mix for yourself. It might be more trouble than it's worth, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette Ah okay. I asked because I don't think I have any TS cables. I have a ton of guitar cables, but I was told by a buddy NOT to use guitar cables in a place that needs TS. Not sure why, because I thought a standard guitar (instrument) cable was TS. lol Shows how much I know! So I now have to call back Audiopile and change my order or at least that small part of it. They shouldn't be too pissed. Between 6 of the Premium XLR's, two 13 gauge 1/4" speaker cables, and the two TRS cables, I gave them a $200.00+ order. Don't know what your friend is referring to, as any quality guitar cable is the same as any other ts-ts cable. I use the same cables for guitar feeds, unbalanced monitor feeds, keyboard feeds, etc. If the guitar cables are low-cost inferior cables they might cause problems, but only for the reasons that any low-cost inferior cable would. If you look over the audiopile.net site you will see that Mark uses basically the same cable and ends for guitar cables as he does for any instrument or patch cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack If you have no need for the trs cables from Audiopile, then by all means ask them to change the order to ts cables. But as I stated earlier, you could monitor the foh mix or one of the group mixes on the rac pac by using the headphone output on the rac pac and running it via trs-trs into the line input on your Rolls set to stereo. Using a group mix would allow you to set up a pseudo seperate mix for yourself. It might be more trouble than it's worth, however. Yeah, you know what? I guess I can always use an extra 15 foot TRS cable for SOMETHING at some point in the future. Plus, as you said, since I am mixing from the stage, I have all the "more me" I want with my aux sends at every fader, and I really kind of like your idea about sending a headphone out from the mixer to the amp. Even if I end up not doing that, and simply using Aux 4 as my line in, I at least have the option to try it your way in the future. I was actually considering using one of the "more me" functions for that, but I don't think that the mic pass through OR the instrument pass through on the unit are stereo and the headphone out is. lol So now I just need to order a couple of TS cables and I should be good to go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 The instrument input on the rolls is stereo on a trs jack with two xlr pass throughs for left and right; the mic input appears to be mono balanced. It might be possible to use a trs to xlr adapter cable and feed a balanced line from the rac pac to the Rolls mic input, but not having a gain-reduction pad on the Rolls might cause input distortion, since the rac pac aux outs are line level, and presumably the mic input on the Rolls is mic level.If you have a decent guitar cord, you can try the aux send to input on the Rolls with it. As long as it's a standard ts-ts instrument cable you shouldn't harm anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack The instrument input on the rolls is stereo on a trs jack with two xlr pass throughs for left and right; the mic input appears to be mono balanced. It might be possible to use a trs to xlr adapter cable and feed a balanced line from the rac pac to the Rolls mic input, but not having a gain-reduction pad on the Rolls might cause input distortion, since the rac pac aux outs are line level, and presumably the mic input on the Rolls is mic level. If you have a decent guitar cord, you can try the aux send to input on the Rolls with it. As long as it's a standard ts-ts instrument cable you shouldn't harm anything. Just got off the phone with Mark and he is looking into this for me. I am finding this all overwhelmingly confusing. Then again, I am the guy who, until recently, was daisy chaining second monitors and second front end speakers together with guitar cables lol. So that shows you where my expertise level is at. Needless to say, I ordered a pair of 13 gauge speaker wire as soon as I realized I was screwing up big time. Mark was saying something about guitar cables being good as well, so long as they aren't too long (I think because they are unbalanced maybe?) But he is looking into what the aux out configuration of my Rac Pac is as well as the line in of the Rolls PM351. I think he wants to make certain that the mono aux send of the mixer matches the mono line input of the PM351 once it is jumped AND double checking on the need for cables for that setup. I think he said something about wanting to make sure that the aux out matches the Rolls Line Input, not just in terms of mono but in terms of balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack The instrument input on the rolls is stereo on a trs jack with two xlr pass throughs for left and right; the mic input appears to be mono balanced. It might be possible to use a trs to xlr adapter cable and feed a balanced line from the rac pac to the Rolls mic input, but not having a gain-reduction pad on the Rolls might cause input distortion, since the rac pac aux outs are line level, and presumably the mic input on the Rolls is mic level. If you have a decent guitar cord, you can try the aux send to input on the Rolls with it. As long as it's a standard ts-ts instrument cable you shouldn't harm anything. Just got off the phone with Mark and he is looking into this for me. I am finding this all overwhelmingly confusing. Then again, I am the guy who, until recently, was daisy chaining second monitors and second front end speakers together with guitar cables lol. So that shows you where my expertise level is at. Needless to say, I ordered a pair of 13 gauge speaker wire as soon as I realized I was screwing up big time. Mark was saying something about guitar cables being good as well, so long as they aren't too long (I think because they are unbalanced maybe?) But he is looking into what the aux out configuration of my Rac Pac is as well as the line in of the Rolls PM351. I think he wants to make certain that the mono aux send of the mixer matches the mono line input of the PM351 once it is jumped AND double checking on the need for cables for that setup. I think he said something about wanting to make sure that the aux out matches the Rolls Line Input, not just in terms of mono but in terms of balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 5, 2012 Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette Just got off the phone with Mark and he is looking into this for me. I am finding this all overwhelmingly confusing. Then again, I am the guy who, until recently, was daisy chaining second monitors and second front end speakers together with guitar cables lol. So that shows you where my expertise level is at. Needless to say, I ordered a pair of 13 gauge speaker wire as soon as I realized I was screwing up big time. Mark was saying something about guitar cables being good as well, so long as they aren't too long (I think because they are unbalanced maybe?) But he is looking into what the aux out configuration of my Rac Pac is as well as the line in of the Rolls PM351. I think he wants to make certain that the mono aux send of the mixer matches the mono line input of the PM351 once it is jumped AND double checking on the need for cables for that setup. I think he said something about wanting to make sure that the aux out matches the Rolls Line Input, not just in terms of mono but in terms of balance? Mark will take care of you and treat you well. Yes, the length of the guitar cable is due to induced noise. The longer the cable the more likely to pick up interference. Yes, he is checking for mono/stereo, balanced/unbalanced, and likely signal level as well. Don't worry about being new to this stuff; we all started the same place with little or no knowledge (except maybe Agedhorse with his fancy degrees). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack Mark will take care of you and treat you well. Yes, the length of the guitar cable is due to induced noise. The longer the cable the more likely to pick up interference. Yes, he is checking for mono/stereo, balanced/unbalanced, and likely signal level as well. Don't worry about being new to this stuff; we all started the same place with little or no knowledge (except maybe Agedhorse with his fancy degrees). Screw Agedhorse and the um horse he rode in on. lol Joking, obviously. Yes he took very good care of me. He researched it and apparently the mono aux send on the Rac Pac is balanced and the mono line input (once you jump it) is unbalanced. (eyeroll!!) So, in short, he basically told me to use a good quality guitar/instrument cable and I will be good to go. Oh, and he also gave you kudos for creativity with your headhones out and jumping the line input to stereo suggestion. So I ordered a pair of 15 foot guitar cables to use as for the two wired IEM starting points to the Rolls unit. I also ordered a premium 30 foot guitar cable...just because, as well as a pair of 8" right angle flat effects jumper cables. All told, my order is about $275.00. so they are happy. I can't complain either, because he really went the extra mile for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 6, 2012 Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Some of us just had the opportunity to learn this stuff many years ago, from other folks who really knew their stuff. Then, of course, I am always studying and learning new things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 6, 2012 Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette He researched it and apparently the mono aux send on the Rac Pac is balanced and the mono line input (once you jump it) is unbalanced. (eyeroll!!) Points of clarification, if I undersand my research correctly: The 6 Aux outputs on a Spirit Folio Rac Pac appear to be 1/4" TRS balanced (which parallels what I recall from a decade or more when I owned and used this same model of board). Aux 3-6 are noted as being the same as aux 1 & 2 shown on the block diagram schematic. The Line In 1/4" TRS jack of the Rolls PM351 is configured as unbalanced mono or unbalanced stereo (depending on the positioning of the jumper block). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger Points of clarification, if I undersand my research correctly: The 6 Aux outputs on a Spirit Folio Rac Pac appear to be 1/4" TRS balanced (which parallels what I recall from a decade or more when I owned and used this same model of board). Aux 3-6 are noted as being the same as aux 1 & 2 shown on the block diagram schematic. The Line In 1/4" TRS jack of the Rolls PM351 is configured as unbalanced mono or unbalanced stereo (depending on the positioning of the jumper block). Not disputing your facts, but I am not sure what you are saying, to be honest. Am I wrong and purchased the wrong thing? Did I purchase the right thing to do the job? Somewhere in between? Do I need to do something different? Put another way: English, please? Put yet another way: What's your point? I don;t get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 6, 2012 Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Mark is just stating his findings for clarity's sake. In forums such as this others may follow this thread to find relevant information, so he making certain that statements attributed to him are as factual as possible. His statement doesn't change what you need; ie a 1/4 to 1/4 instrument cable patched from the aux out on the rac pac to the line in on the Rolls with the line in jumper set to mono.And Mark, for what it's worth, that's the same information I gleaned from looking at the manuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted November 6, 2012 Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 CV, you have run into the reason I'm not a fan of 1/4" connectors. The TS vs. TRS distinction isn't really obvious (to some folks); the use of 1/4" TRS for both balanced mono signals and (in different applications) for stereo unbalanced application makes it worse. Add to that the fact that the same connector (1/4" TS) is used with fine guage wire for guitar and similar line level purposes, and with heavy guage wire for speaker signals, just makes it worse. If for no other reason, that's why Speakon connectors make sense to use for amp to speaker connections. (The locking connection is also a plus). You can't confuse a Speakon cable (heavy guage wire) with a guitar cable (light guage wire). The balanced mono TRS signal as being incompatible with unbalanced TRS stereo is the worst "gotcha", and the hardest to get (other) folks to understand. Good luck. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 6, 2012 Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette Not disputing your facts, but I am not sure what you are saying, Originally Posted by madjack Mark is just stating his findings for clarity's sake. In forums such as this others may follow this thread to find relevant information, Yes, that was the intent... clarification, for whomever may be following the thread. Originally Posted by Miko Man CV, you have run into the reason I'm not a fan of 1/4" connectors. The TS vs. TRS distinction isn't really obvious (to some folks); the use of 1/4" TRS for both balanced mono signals and (in different applications) for stereo unbalanced application makes it worse. Add to that the fact that the same connector (1/4" TS) is used with fine guage wire for guitar and similar line level purposes, and with heavy guage wire for speaker signals, just makes it worse. The balanced mono TRS signal as being incompatible with unbalanced TRS stereo is the worst "gotcha", and the hardest to get (other) folks to understand. Yes, per exactly... the seeming common confusion concerning TRS balanced vs. TRS unbalanced stereo vs. TRS inserts, etc... being the same jack but different functions. I find myself explaining the differences with increasing regularity and a seemingly higher threshold of misunderstandings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 6, 2012 Thanks for the answers, guys. Hellinger, I wasn't trying to come off nasty above. I just wasn't sure whether you were giving me advice on my cable choices, which quite honestly, I didn't understand if you were lol. I obviously have a lot to learn about this topic as I couldn't even comprehend whether you were telling me my choice in cables for the aux send of my amp to the line input of the PM351 was right or wrong or if you were saying something entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 7, 2012 Members Share Posted November 7, 2012 Originally Posted by ChiroVette Hellinger, I just wasn't sure whether you were giving me advice on my cable choices, which quite honestly, I didn't understand if you were lol. I sensed that my conversation with you on the phone left a little to be desired on my part; therefore, I was following up to see if the rig was shiny side up and cruising down a happy highway, or somewhere off in a ditch and listing heavily to one-side (and had blazed a trail that others might follow). Hopefully the rig is shiny side up, and I've sent the appropriate cables for the application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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