Propellerhead Record

[hotmitts]

Thanks for this review. Being a Sonar user, Craig's articles have always come in handy!

I bought Record about a month ago; 'have been a Reason user for years and I fancied experiencing the stability, ease-of-use and CPU friendliness of a Propellerheads product in an audio recording program (plus the Reason integration of course).

So far not disappointed! It's sturdy and very fast to use, and the mixing desk sounds creamy and warm (worth the price alone, ah reckons). Like you say, they've really thought through the features from the users point of view. I've found it inspiring, feels like I can just get on and make music and don't have to stop and think about anything too much.

Made me appreciate Reason all the more too (think you're right in that Reason is a necessary 'part' of Record). Its' (Reason/Records') finer features are so nice (like the patch browser, where you can audition between any of the synths, samplers or sound effects without quitting the browser) and you can throw a huge amount of Fx and sounds into a project. All encourages you to experiment.

A bloke called Selig just made an amazing B3 plus Leslie, basically with Thor (Reason Synth that is, not Norse God obviously). I haven't bought the refill yet but the demo sounds amazing -proof of what a Reason synth is capable of! http://baumanproductions.com/SeligProductions.html

Look forward to more of your review.

[mcatalao]

Craig,

You're record review is one of the greatest I've seen online and in the mags.

If you please, let me chime in with some of my considerations and opinions...

First of all let me say, i agree with everything you posted previously. I have a reason background since version 3, Cubase since VST32, and i have been an avid user of computer technologies since 1996! I am a keyboard and wind player since i know myself, but i got hooked with music composing, and midi sequencing since roland released mc300 and D10/D50. Great stuff was done at the time with this keyboards.

Reason was my favorite application for composing since i bought it, and since i had it, i let midi sequencing in cubase a bit aside (thought got back to some vst's i still had to use).

I was looking at record with much anticipation. Being able to record audio within reason, creating projects in a self contain ambient, stabler than rocks, was a dream! Anyway, since propellerheads announced it, i eagerly fought to be one of the first beta testers. It's fun that you commented records stability in v1, where i didn't see record crash or have a strange behavior even before the first RC.

So, that being said, and concluding this intro, since i got Record Beta, i didn't use any other thing, except for huge VST based projects (orchestral stuff, for example).

As i said your review is great, and i think you got it more or less concluded, but if you find i'm touching something you were going to talk in the future, i beg your pardon for that.

Adding to what you said, coming from a reason standpoint, Record adds a Horizontal spanning rack. I reason the rack grew vertically, and now record allows you to grow the rack to your right. Of course, there are not monitors that will allow you to see the infinite span that record enables, but for the sake of visibility, record also has at your right most side, a rack map, where you can withe mouse drag the rack image wherever you like. This is great because you can use this multiple racks to divide your stuff into sections where each rack is a section. Pretty neat!

I don't know if you noticed, but each audio track, has a little tuner there. This is specially good for guitarists but then again, it will be helpful for whoever has tunable instruments. I don't imagine myself singing and looking at the tuner...

Remote - This isn't a new functionality of record, but the fact that it works exactly as reasons its great. Not only you fully control any device with a previously supported, but that applied to the ssl mixer, creates a great mix environment. Also, record works in auto latch mode, making it easy to work with non touch sensitive surfaces, like the BCF2000.

About time stretching, propellerheads outdone themselves this time. An important issue about this is that, each audio file is being stretched individually, and is treated accordingly to its content. Best results are attained in a complete song if you tweak the stretching type in the audio channel device (melodic content, or general).

Finally, record is at this time an application that should be considered carefully, and that gives me mixed feelings. I love it, but for some things it simply isn't answer for some tasks.

Not only because of the lack of vst, or midi out (don't know if you already stated that, but i consider important midi out in a sequencer, because of the obvious use of external devices, but also, for big and complex projects, where you integrate the sequencer with a VST wrapper, or a sound module's stand alone version, in stake of stability).

Records architecture, is also a little strange, and propellerheads didn't specify why, but if you open the application, will "eat" up to 400 mb with nothing loaded. That's a little too much for an application that doesn't strem from the HDD for any of its samples, nor it allows integration with other instruments in any form (no midi out, no VST, no rewire 2 master). This is a problem because, record is a 32 bit application and you are limited to 2 gb ram for 32 bit applications, and wont be able to run those projects that were on the limit. Mind that propellerheads created a set of refills that load big patches (500 MB pianos, and 200MB basses, and so on...) in the Studio Combi. I have some reason songs with these refills that wont load in record...

Also Rewiring, lifts some new problems, being record a recording application, why am i rewiring to a daw? I don't know if you tried, but as soon as you rewire it to a daw, record wont... record anymore! There isn't also a way to pass the Daw signal to the ssl's console in record.

Of course there is always a work around. You can get some orchestral refills (garritan, miroslav) but they are very thin compared to East West or Vienna, you can record your audio, and reason instruments, then rewire, sequence your vst stuff in cubase, stem out from cubase, and end your mix in record so that you can process everything in record.
But this are all work flow killers... I think from an engineer standpoint, this wont be a pain, because most often when the project comes to a mix engineer bounce and back issues were taken care from the composer, but for the multi tasking producer, there will be some additional tasks involved.

Again, great review, and thanks for letting us participate!

Miguel

[Lord Toranaga]

Can you please be more specific? As in synching external MIDI devices to Record, or inability to follow certain types of sync, or...?

 

 

specifically synchronizing to an external drum machine.

 

I read. when using midi beat clock, there is considerable "drift"

[Ernest Buckley]

Hey Craig,

 

Thanks for the patch. I`ve been reading this review slowly. I`ll eventually get Record but I`m always slow to get into Version 1 of anything. So I`ll probably wait until V2. Thanks for everything.

[Anderton]

Miguel - thanks very much for your comments and additions!! The whole point of a Pro Review is to encourage questions, comments, tips, etc. We welcome manufacturer participation as well.

 

Your points are all well-taken and I appreciate your adding info about the horizontal rack and such. It's something that I don't recall if I mentioned or not, but it is an important feature.

 

The comment about ReWire limitations is not restricted to Record - as far as I know you can't record in anything that's serving as a ReWire client. For example, I have a bunch of presets in Live for use with Gibson's Dark Fire, and wanted to record through Live while ReWired into Sonar. Not possible...

 

As to Record being a 32-bit application, this is one area where Propellerheads needs to get to work! As far as I know it's still not possible to ReWire with 64-bit applications. I'm using 64-bit apps more and more, and it's just a matter of time before everyone is. Snow Leopard will help push users on the Mac side; I thought Windows 7 would do the same for PCs, but Microsoft ended up doing both 32 and 64-bit versions. Oh well.

[mcatalao]

As to Record being a 32-bit application, this is one area where Propellerheads needs to get to work! As far as I know it's still not possible to ReWire with 64-bit applications. I'm using 64-bit apps more and more, and it's just a matter of time before everyone is. Snow Leopard will help push users on the Mac side; I thought Windows 7 would do the same for PCs, but Microsoft ended up doing both 32 and 64-bit versions. Oh well.

 

 

Nope, at this time it is not possible. I can understand why there are two versions of Windows 7, since there are still a lot applications that might be buggie if are not run in 32 bit native. But still, i don't know of any current step processors in production that are not 64 bit, so... What i can't understand is why Record is not 64 bit, but on other hand, i think that would obligate propellerheads to make reason 64 bit too, and we know propellerheads are a small company compared to Steinberg and other monsters.

 

Let me add just one more thing, from my post you might think i'm not happy with Record.

By the contrary. I am starting every single project i can with record, and i don't get to other applications as long i can keep working with it...

 

Cheers,

Miguel Catalão

[Anderton]

Before continuing...several people have wondered how the transition to the new platform will affect Pro Reviews. As you know if you've read the forum-wide announcement, the forums were captured for converting to the new platform on 12/20, so any posts added after that to these forums will be lost. But, fear not: the Pro Reviews will continue, with the only difference being that I'm writing all my posts in a text editor and saving the images so that they can be reconstructed on the new platform (slated to go live on 1/8 or possibly before).

I will also be copying relevant posts that you make so they won't be lost either. Now, back to the review.

[poserp]

specifically synchronizing to an external drum machine. I read. when using midi beat clock, there is considerable "drift"

 

 

Neither Reason or Record can act as MIDI master clock sources -- they don't output MIDI. They can be slaved to external devices or software (via Rewire), however. So, if you want to sync to a drum machine you have to set the drum machine up as the master and Reason/Record as the slave.

[SloppyJoe]

Any word on the "drift"?

[SloppyJoe]

I want to see a full recording session with tracks recorded from Reason, microphones, and even outboard MIDI. Let's see what this puppy looks like in full action.

 

 

ty

[poserp]

Any word on the "drift"?

 

 

Answered above -- Record and Reason can't act as Midi Master Clock sources, so you have to set up your drum machine as master and Reason/Record as slave.

[1manband]

Initially the dongle was a very big turn off for me. I hate the very idea of them and refuse to go that route. But you mentioned that you can use record without it? that opens it up for consideration to me.

 

But I would like some clarification on it.

 

Can you completely use it all the time without the dongle? I don't mind if I need it to register once, but not if it's gonna ask for it randomly like Reason asked for the CD.

 

And also once you are validated on line without the dongel, can u then go off line and stay off line? And can you then stay that way or will you need to validate every time you open the program?

 

 

And is there external midi? Seems to not be but I want 2 b sure. If not that is a HUGE limitations and really unacceptable that they would miss it.

 

If not..will there b?

thanks!

[1manband]

just noticed the upgrade price on record...I have reason 3 and the upgrade to 4 would be 129..but if I throw in record it's only 149 and it includes reason 4?! so that's like getting record for $20? that's a good deal!

[gerry basserman]

Hi, Gerry Basserman from Propellerheads here. I noticed some talk about ReWiring Record and that someone said that Reason was better to ReWire because it was 'way less memory hungry.' That's really not true. In every way, Record was coded from the bottom up to be a light, fleet app on multicore systems (which is one reason it took so long) - and that's just as true with Record/Reason running. In every way it is lighter on the system than Reason alone and so ReWiring the Duo is always going to give better performance. This may seem counter intuitive since there's apparently WAY more going on, but that's the fact by design. In many ways, the Record is the best upgrade Reason ever had.

[Anderton]

Hi Gerry!! Does this mean we finally have a manufacturer contact participating in the thread? If so, your timing couldn't be better, because I'm pretty much done editing NAMM videos and am getting back to pro reviews.

 

While we're dispelling myths...some people have said that using ReWire takes a lot more CPU power. This is not true. ReWire requires virtually no CPU power, but the reason why that appears to be the case is that you are now running at least two programs, and THAT'S what requires the CPU to work harder.

 

I've used Record on my 64-bit Vista Windows laptop (running as a 32-bit program), and am surprised at how small a CPU footprint it has.

[Anderton]

 

Can you completely use it all the time without the dongle?

 

 

You can create projects and save them without the dongle, but you can't open projects.

 

 

I don't mind if I need it to register once, but not if it's gonna ask for it randomly like Reason asked for the CD.

 

 

For optimum results, you need to have it plugged in all the time, with the following exception...

 

 

And also once you are validated on line without the dongel, can u then go off line and stay off line? And can you then stay that way or will you need to validate every time you open the program?

 

 

I was taking my laptop to a movie set a couple months ago and planned to use Record. I validated Record online before leaving, and put the computer into sleep mode. But I forgot the dongle! So imagine my surprise when I woke up the laptop, and Record was ready to go. I don't think the authorization would survive if you turned off the power, though.

 

 

And is there external midi? Seems to not be but I want 2 b sure. If not that is a HUGE limitations and really unacceptable that they would miss it.

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "external MIDI"? Sync? Ability to accept external MIDI control? Ability to output MIDI? Please elaborate, and I'll answer.

 

Gerry, if you'd care to elaborate on the dongle, or correct anything I've said, please do.

[1manband]

What exactly do you mean by "external MIDI"? Sync? Ability to accept external MIDI control? Ability to output MIDI? Please elaborate, and I'll answer. Gerry, if you'd care to elaborate on the dongle, or correct anything I've said, please do.

 

 

 

Output Midi.

 

 

What I've been searching for is a program that I could use live. Reason would have almost been it, but there was no audio input, and no control of external synths.

 

But with this combo, I could see myself just bringing a laptop, and a sound card with enough inputs for a couple of mics, a guitar and bass.

 

I would like to process the guitarist, bassist and vocalist through reason's fx while I play keys and have some sequenced hardware playing.

 

Would this scenario work? I know I can do it with other programs, but its cumbersome and not as stable/cpu friendly.

 

But I would not want to bring a dongle and possibly lose it. There may be a situation where i forget the dongle ( like you did!) or there is no wifi....what happens then? SOS?

 

What a bummer that Reason went with a dongle. In my set up, I have a 3 usb ports available. Mouse, midi controller, and sound card.

[mcatalao]

Hi, Gerry Basserman from Propellerheads here. I noticed some talk about ReWiring Record and that someone said that Reason was better to ReWire because it was 'way less memory hungry.' That's really not true. In every way, Record was coded from the bottom up to be a light, fleet app on multicore systems (which is one reason it took so long) - and that's just as true with Record/Reason running. In every way it is lighter on the system than Reason alone and so ReWiring the Duo is always going to give better performance. This may seem counter intuitive since there's apparently WAY more going on, but that's the fact by design. In many ways, the Record is the best upgrade Reason ever had.

 

 

How can you say that's really not true, when Record "eats" 400 Mb Ram from scratch (without instruments loaded)?

 

I was in the beta testers run and talked with the support team about this and they acknowledged that, but it was an architectural option, a "It is as It is" statement...

 

The truth is that if you work with big projects, if the reason version loads more than 1,5 GB Ram (perfectly doable with the Reason Refills), you won't be able to load it in Record. I did the test myself.

 

"In every way it is lighter on the system than Reason alone and so ReWiring the Duo is always going to give better performance. "

 

What?

How come then, the minimum system specs for Record are WAY Higher than Reasons? Just for the sake of laptop companies pockets?

 

The only situation i can agree with that is if you add the multi processor variable, since reason does not support it. But, in the end, i am getting the "no more ram" warning more often than having 1 of my cores loaded at 100% with reason, so in the end it is invalid for what we're talking about.

 

This WOULD not be an issue, IF, as i stated before, here and in other forums, Reason/Record, woult be a 64 bit program and/or streamed the samples from HDD.

 

Don't confuse people. Record IS more efficient in Multi Core systems, but memory wise is way more heavier than Reason.

 

Just pick a Reason project, check the memory it loads, then test it i record.

[gerry basserman]

How can you say that's really not true, when Record "eats" 400 Mb Ram from scratch (without instruments loaded)? I was in the beta testers run and talked with the support team about this and they acknowledged that, but it was an architectural option, a "It is as It is" statement... The truth is that if you work with big projects, if the reason version loads more than 1,5 GB Ram (perfectly doable with the Reason Refills), you won't be able to load it in Record. I did the test myself. "In every way it is lighter on the system than Reason alone and so ReWiring the Duo is always going to give better performance. " What? How come then, the minimum system specs for Record are WAY Higher than Reasons? Just for the sake of laptop companies pockets? The only situation i can agree with that is if you add the multi processor variable, since reason does not support it. But, in the end, i am getting the "no more ram" warning more often than having 1 of my cores loaded at 100% with reason, so in the end it is invalid for what we're talking about. This WOULD not be an issue, IF, as i stated before, here and in other forums, Reason/Record, woult be a 64 bit program and/or streamed the samples from HDD. Don't confuse people. Record IS more efficient in Multi Core systems, but memory wise is way more heavier than Reason. Just pick a Reason project, check the memory it loads, then test it i record.

 

 

Well my bad for smushing two issues together there - I was primarily speaking to the performance issue, which is as you say makes Record completely advantageous in multi-core mode - so whether alone or in Rewire mode, it's going to give way more tracks, instruments, effects. Try Rewiring Record into a DAW and then create a dozen or more Thor synths on an average multicore computer - no problem.

 

Now, regarding issue two: memory. It's been some years since I had less than two gigs of RAM on a computer, having learned that lesson well as a user of other DAWs, and it seems hard to buy a computer now that doesn't have it, so the 400MB that Record preloads is not an issue for me. I usually leave windows open in Safari and it's sitting there with about 400 MB as well. The fact is, I just loaded a blues tune into Reason 4 that used three of Propellerheads Hypersampled refills and waited about three minutes for all those many samples to load, finally having Reason consume over 900 mB. Then I loaded the same rns file into Record. It loaded over 5 times faster (courtesy of the RAM reserve) and then equally consumed over 900 MB. Maybe you have some concerns which regards your particular setup or workflow, but the upgrade to Record will make sense to every Reason user, whether they need audio recording or not. I don't know anyone who HAS gotten Record to boot just Reason much anymore. Even without all the extra functionality and performance, the fact is that your rns songs just sound way better thru the new Mixer.

 

And will all apps and OS eventually be in a 64 bit world? - of course.

[gerry basserman]

Craig was asking for some"use of dongle" elaboration - like other posts, I'm coming from my user perspective as much as possible. Here's how I use the ignition key, or not: truth is, in my studio, it's internet auth 100% of the time, my key sits in the laptop bag for travel only. In that case, I boot in demo mode and only use the key temporarily for some function not available in demo mode (open file, export audio, bounce mixer channels). Then it goes back in my pocket or bag. To see how seemlessly you can switch between auth modes, try recording on a track while the key is IN and just pull it out while recording. No drama, you'll just see the AUTHORIZED LED go from green to red but the recording process is untouched, then put the key back in. LED changes back to green but again no interruption of any kind. This is also true of internet auth mode. IF connection is lost, which concerns some people, the AUTH LED will simply go from yellow (internet mode) to red (demo mode) without interrupting anything. It's not a PERFECT system, but IS very easygoing. For example, if I boot in demo mode and then want to switch to internet auth, I can't do it while the program is running. I need to save, close and reboot in internet auth mode. Oh well.

[mcatalao]

Now, regarding issue two: memory. It's been some years since I had less than two gigs of RAM on a computer, having learned that lesson well as a user of other DAWs, and it seems hard to buy a computer now that doesn't have it, so the 400MB that Record preloads is not an issue for me. I usually leave windows open in Safari and it's sitting there with about 400 MB as well. The fact is, I just loaded a blues tune into Reason 4 that used three of Propellerheads Hypersampled refills and waited about three minutes for all those many samples to load, finally having Reason consume over 900 mB. Then I loaded the same rns file into Record. It loaded over 5 times faster (courtesy of the RAM reserve) and then equally consumed over 900 MB. Maybe you have some concerns which regards your particular setup or workflow, but the upgrade to Record will make sense to every Reason user, whether they need audio recording or not. I don't know anyone who HAS gotten Record to boot just Reason much anymore. Even without all the extra functionality and performance, the fact is that your rns songs just sound way better thru the new Mixer. And will all apps and OS eventually be in a 64 bit world? - of course.

 

 

 

Well, first of all i don't know what os you are using, but just fyi i'm using Windos 32 and 64 bit. The issue at stake here is that in either os you can only address up to 2 GB with record or reason without hacking the executable long address flag, thing that i believe propellerheads does not support.

 

Secondly, and for what you said in your last post, usually i don't state something without being pretty sure about what i am saying. In attachment there's the example i stated before whit a smaller project (+- 600 MB in reason wich loads faster in Record as you stated) BUT loads 1016 MB in record (i'd say around 400 mb more).

 

The fact you are using safari, indicates me you are using a mac, and we might be facin an issue that happens only in Windows, but still memory allocation inside the software shouldn't be much different. On other hand in a 64 bit environment i can load up many more applications and each has it's owns memory allocation (not only a 64 bit application can address more memory, but also the os reversve more memory for applications). In your case safary alocated 400 mb, record 900, and so on.

 

Finally, as you can see we are talking about a fairly small project (6 or 7 tracks). Of these only a couple are Studio Combo instruments. This supports my complaining that it's easy to overload the 2 GB max allocation on 32 bit applications.

 

Finally, Gerry... With all due respect, i am not picking any fight with you or propellerheads. The things i stated here, i stated them in propellerheads forum, and they are the truth, in the ways i have experienced it. On other hand, since i have Propellerheads record, i rarely use reason, unless for older projects, or projects that i have to rewire (and i still prefer to rewire reason to cubase rathed than record).

 

But, from a user standpoint, there are still some things and i stated the already, i would just be repeating, that i would like to see available in record.

 

Cheers,

 

mcatalao (same user in the propellerheads forum)

[typewriter]

And will all apps and OS eventually be in a 64 bit world? - of course.

 

 

Hopefully this will be true for Record, too. Actually, the lack of 64bit memory adressing and/or missing discstreaming of sample programs is the only thing preventing me - and other people I know - from upgrading to Record.

 

Everything is improved compared to Reason. The sequencer, the workflow and the mixer is a killer. However this is useless with not enough memory adressing.

 

I would love to work in one environment (Record) only. With the new mixer this is the way to go. I know you can rewire and stem back and forth but frankly this is a real pain. Without 64bit/streaming you can't work with big orchestral sample sets or large drums samples. I started converting my samples but you'll be stuck with not enough ram.

 

Look at your own Refills: As far as I read some Propellerheads Refills may easily use 1 gig or more Ram for one sound. This means you can load only two or three large patches. This is a real limitation.

 

There is also no 64bit rewire making it impossible to rewire to the latest Logic version on Snowleopard. You have to run Logic in 32bit mode in order to use Reason/Record what limits the use of Logic, too.

 

Well, to make it short I would love to hear a clear Propellerheads statement if and when we get a 64 bit version (including Rewire).

 

Being vague about this issue does not help the company and looking at the latest marketing activities it seems to me that users are not upgrading in the expected numbers.

[Boxed]

 

Hi, Gerry Basserman from Propellerheads here. I noticed some talk about ReWiring Record and that someone said that Reason was better to ReWire because it was 'way less memory hungry.' That's really not true. In every way, Record was coded from the bottom up to be a light, fleet app on multicore systems (which is one reason it took so long) - and that's just as true with Record/Reason running. In every way it is lighter on the system than Reason alone and so ReWiring the Duo is always going to give better performance. This may seem counter intuitive since there's apparently WAY more going on, but that's the fact by design. In many ways, the Record is the best upgrade Reason ever had.

 

Record uses up way more resources on my computer than Reason. Especially RAM. The Application itself is well over a gig in size.

[U&I]

Record uses up way more resources on my computer than Reason. Especially RAM. The Application itself is well over a gig in size.

 

 

 

With all due respect a bit of a reality check is needed here.

Using more RAM is not using more "resources".

RECORD is a Multithread capable application, so even if you just use it with the Reason 4 devices and NO Audio recording you get far less CPU overhead on a Core 2 Duo, i5 or i7 based computing system.

If you just connect the Reason devices in Record straight to the rewire out channels and use it in slave mode with say, Ableton Live (like you would have without record) you also get lower CPU overhead as it effectively turns RECORD into a multithread capable rewire slave device.

In all honest I don't own a single PC/Mac with less than 4 gig of RAM and many of these newer machines come with 4 gig as standard.

I haven't noted a substantially huge difference in RAM useage with any of my old Reason songs brought into Record.

Considering one gets fully dynamics processing of every input channel, audio recording, the SSL modeled desk, great buss compression, the substantial number of inserts and so many instrument devices combined in one Record project on a Core 2 Duo iMac, tells me that this is a very processor and resource efficient tool overall.

In no way could I have over 100+ Devices and the levels of polyphony + processing power I get with Record using any other host.

As it stands I use Reaktor on a dedicated PC notebook for good reason in my current set up.

There's a lot going on under the hood in Record and whilst it's not perfect it is a pretty damn solid product at V1.0 release.

[mcatalao]

 

With all due respect a bit of a reality check is needed here. Using more RAM is not using more "resources".

 

 

Saying ram isn't resources, is at least disrespectful for one of the most important item under the hood of your computer (and for Von Neumann). From where i come, cpu, Ram and HDD, is the trinity of resources of a computer. If one of this items fails you have no daw.

 

If your knowledge of computing doesn't allow you to see what i'm talking about then please, check again my previous message, or do your math and see that you cannot have more than 3 GB ram in a 32 bit environment, AND a 32 bit application cannot address more than 3 GB ram and in fact in windows you wont be able to address more than 2 GB for each application.

 

Record is stable has a horse but i'm getting a bit tired of the "no memory" error on and on. I have Windows XP 32 and 64 (studio), windows Vista and Windows 7 (Home and work), and i have the same error every time. My studio PC, has 8 GB Ram and even under win 64 i have the same error.

 

"In no way could I have over 100+ Devices and the levels of polyphony + processing power I get with Record using any other host."

 

True. But if you use NN-XT's with big samples you cannot say that. And if you go for some nice instruments from the reason refills, then your problem won't be processor, or poliphoy, but ram. Test it.