Propellerhead Record

[Boxed]

 

With all due respect a bit of a reality check is needed here. Using more RAM is not using more "resources". RECORD is a Multithread capable application, so even if you just use it with the Reason 4 devices and NO Audio recording you get far less CPU overhead on a Core 2 Duo, i5 or i7 based computing system. If you just connect the Reason devices in Record straight to the rewire out channels and use it in slave mode with say, Ableton Live (like you would have without record) you also get lower CPU overhead as it effectively turns RECORD into a multithread capable rewire slave device. In all honest I don't own a single PC/Mac with less than 4 gig of RAM and many of these newer machines come with 4 gig as standard. I haven't noted a substantially huge difference in RAM useage with any of my old Reason songs brought into Record. Considering one gets fully dynamics processing of every input channel, audio recording, the SSL modeled desk, great buss compression, the substantial number of inserts and so many instrument devices combined in one Record project on a Core 2 Duo iMac, tells me that this is a very processor and resource efficient tool overall. In no way could I have over 100+ Devices and the levels of polyphony + processing power I get with Record using any other host. As it stands I use Reaktor on a dedicated PC notebook for good reason in my current set up. There's a lot going on under the hood in Record and whilst it's not perfect it is a pretty damn solid product at V1.0 release.

 

 

RAM is in fact a 'resource'. The more Ram used by an application - the more system resources required naturally. And Record cannot recognise more than 3Gb of RAM (being 32bit). The Record app on its own consumes a whole gig. So you can quite easily run out of RAM on a project with large audio files and NNXTs using large samples. My own finding is that Record uses approximately ten times more RAM than Reason does on an empty project.

 

Next. Record uses more CPU clock-for-clock than Reason even on an empty rack with nothing in it. Really the only difference with Record is that it's multi-threaded - whilst Reason runs on a single hardware thread. But its not more efficient. Its no good to simply rely on brute force power (and expecting all your user-base to be running the very latest hardware), you must code an app to make efficient use of all available power. Reason was known for being an extremely tight and elegant piece of code -> using next no resources.

 

I was on the Record beta program and I wasn't the only one complaining about CPU usage. I can run over 50 tracks in Logic without chocking my CPU. And far more than that in Reason. In fact Reason's never maxed out my CPU and I see no need to upgrade as of now.

[mcatalao]

 

RAM is in fact a 'resource'. The more Ram used by an application - the more system resources required naturally. And Record cannot recognise more than 3Gb of RAM (being 32bit). The Record app on its own consumes a whole gig. So you can quite easily run out of RAM on a project with large audio files and NNXTs using large samples. My own finding is that Record uses approximately ten times more RAM than Reason does on an empty project. Next. Record uses more CPU clock-for-clock than Reason even on an empty rack with nothing in it. Really the only difference with Record is that it's multi-threaded - whilst Reason runs on a single hardware thread. But its not more efficient. Its no good to simply rely on brute force power (and expecting all your user-base to be running the very latest hardware), you must code an app to make efficient use of all available power. Reason was known for being an extremely tight and elegant piece of code -> using next no resources. I was on the Record beta program and I wasn't the only one complaining about CPU usage. I can run over 50 tracks in Logic without chocking my CPU. And far more than that in Reason. In fact Reason's never maxed out my CPU and I see no need to upgrade as of now.

 

 

You should stick to facts, record beta and the final version are different on some aspects. First of all, the record beta was working with a bunch of other applications that hogged the cpu and ram just for debugging purposes.

 

Secondly, record beta had some issues related to processor scheduling, and memory allocation (more on the De-Allocation side of things actually).

Just FYI, if talking about a simple audio project, record can be very strong, actually. I made some tests in the times of the beta and i could load up to 100 + tracks on record, and play them with no problem. On other hand the scratch folder is a pain for big programs, but, generally speaking, hdd is a pain for big projects, no matter the application.

 

Anyway, you can run 50 or more tracks without hogging your cpu. I'm working on a project with 38 and it's a no brainer. A lot of processing over it ,loads of dynamics all over the place, a reason bass from the REB, a main vox, and a chorus with 6 male vocals, a mandolin, 2 flutes, a stereo tracked guitar (3 tracks). And Record doesn't get more than 20 % of my CPU even in the parts where the tracks are all playing.

 

There's another thing you should consider if you are not aware. I'm picky about natural sounding refills, and i love the reason Refills (i own the combi). You must understand, that when you work with this refills the often are not only multi timbered on each NN-XT, but also, each patch is made of layers of NN-XT's. Really, there aren't much software's like this allowing you to alter this a tweak all the components of an instrument. So, a RDPi piano can load up to 500 MB in 16 bit mode. I even don't dare to load them in 24 bit...

This is were ram comes up, because reason and record don't stream from the hdd (as far as sample devices are concerned).

 

But you digress, or at least are not entirely correct saying record loads 1 GB with an empty project. But it's dreadful that reason loads around 60 or so mb, and record loads 400.

 

This technicalities don't make the application unusable, but on some aspects are drawbacks that were "inherited" from reason. You often have to create fake Bounces of the recorded tracks like those big rdp pianos, and delete the track. Or using light versions of those pianos, wich imho simply don't cut it...

[Boxed]

 

You should stick to facts, record beta and the final version are different on some aspects. First of all, the record beta was working with a bunch of other applications that hogged the cpu and ram just for debugging purposes. Secondly, record beta had some issues related to processor scheduling, and memory allocation (more on the De-Allocation side of things actually). Just FYI, if talking about a simple audio project, record can be very strong, actually. I made some tests in the times of the beta and i could load up to 100 + tracks on record, and play them with no problem. On other hand the scratch folder is a pain for big programs, but, generally speaking, hdd is a pain for big projects, no matter the application. Anyway, you can run 50 or more tracks without hogging your cpu. I'm working on a project with 38 and it's a no brainer. A lot of processing over it ,loads of dynamics all over the place, a reason bass from the REB, a main vox, and a chorus with 6 male vocals, a mandolin, 2 flutes, a stereo tracked guitar (3 tracks). And Record doesn't get more than 20 % of my CPU even in the parts where the tracks are all playing. There's another thing you should consider if you are not aware. I'm picky about natural sounding refills, and i love the reason Refills (i own the combi). You must understand, that when you work with this refills the often are not only multi timbered on each NN-XT, but also, each patch is made of layers of NN-XT's. Really, there aren't much software's like this allowing you to alter this a tweak all the components of an instrument. So, a RDPi piano can load up to 500 MB in 16 bit mode. I even don't dare to load them in 24 bit... This is were ram comes up, because reason and record don't stream from the hdd (as far as sample devices are concerned). But you digress, or at least are not entirely correct saying record loads 1 GB with an empty project. But it's dreadful that reason loads around 60 or so mb, and record loads 400. This technicalities don't make the application unusable, but on some aspects are drawbacks that were "inherited" from reason. You often have to create fake Bounces of the recorded tracks like those big rdp pianos, and delete the track. Or using light versions of those pianos, wich imho simply don't cut it...

 

 

I am factually correct. I'm obviously talking about the final version of Record. I was obviously testing all the way through to the release candidates and final version. Performance didn't change much for me from the Betas(with debug code) to the release version. Its still slow on a 2Ghz processor.

[trueplay]

Thanks, Tom. For me, a Reason user since 1.0, Record was the answer to most of my prayers. But I still had to get past the atrocious marketing of Record, which was equal parts intelligence-insulting and doomed-to-be-a-disappointment hyperbolic. The marketing for Record was so bad that it put me off it for like a week or so. But then I came to my senses, saw what it could do for me, and I bought it. And I'm very happy that I did. But no matter what gets written here, and how many pages deep this thread goes, I think that, at the end of the day, it comes down to this . . . If you're a Reason user, it's damn near inexcusable not to have Record, and if you're not a Reason user, but are using a DAW of some sort, there's very little reason to pick up Record (unless you're REALLY into time-stretching). But if you're new to making music on the computer, you could probably do worse than the Reason/Record combo. You could also probably do better. P.S. I know your name's "Craig" . . . I'm just being daffy. It's from that old Letterman bit, where he'd have a fake NBC/GE executive come out. The fake exec would always start out whatever he said with a "Thanks, Tom" . . . "mistaking" Letterman for Tom Brokaw.

 

 

I agree completely. I think they totally lost sight of what the music was supposed to be about and either brought in the wrong crowds or drove the fans further away!

[mcatalao]

 

I am factually correct. I'm obviously talking about the final version of Record. I was obviously testing all the way through to the release candidates and final version. Performance didn't change much for me from the Betas(with debug code) to the release version. Its still slow on a 2Ghz processor.

 

 

You were not correct when saying record allocated 1 GB ram completely empty. It allocates 400 mb.

You are not correct saying there weren't performance changes from the beta releases to the final, or at least, that must be your experience.

 

From my experience, record is much lighter with the final release than the betas.

 

Anyway, a single core 2GHz processor is slow, but still usable. I ran 2 of the 4 demo songs in my 1,7 GHz asus laptop with 2 GB ram (and those songs were heavy!). I never used it with record again though because that laptop died on me sometime ago.

[egelmett]

Any more review coming from you Craig?

 

A couple of weeks ago I purchased Record (and updated Reason) and am finding this review invaluable to pick up further tips on its usage.

 

I understand resource usage is important, but I just want to learn more about how this software works, and how others are adapting to it.

 

Most of us come from another DAW of sorts (me, Cubase 5), and find there are shortcomings in comparison. The great thing about Record is its flexible nature so many shortcomings have a Propellerheads way around them.

 

But, Craig never did get into the sequencing, or editing...two big uses of audio record software.

 

My opinion of Record is that its a great and easy piece of software that sounds great (I love the mixer EQ). But, it's not a replacement for Logic, Cubase, or even the lower end Protools yet. Despite what Propellerheads may claim, they do have a DAW here..."audio" and "workstation" being key aspects of their software.

 

Of course, the negatives which are positives in some ways (no VST, no midi out) probably benefit the user who does not need those features. I would gladly forsake VST plugins for midi out!

 

However, what's the future for this software? Are Props going to actually try and compete in the DAW market? If so, they need to up the game some. New effects every two years doesn't make them very competitive. And, I'll probably have to keep one foot in the Cubase camp to cover what may or may not be added two years from now.

 

I like that the upcoming versions of Reason and Record will fill in some gaps like Neptune autotune, and the sampling into its sampler player instruments really do help make R+R competitive.

 

Again, if they wish to continue to compete, Props is going to new to step up the addition of effects and features to more than every two years.

 

Wish List:

 

MIDI OUT!

MIDI OUT!

MIDI OUT!

Audio warping

Audio channel grouping

Audio file grouping

Noise gate effect independent of the mixer

Improved Line6 control (I can live with Line6's stuff, but let it be more flexible)

Better, dedicated delay effect

64bit

Rewire 64bit

Better, dedicated chorus effect

Independent Thor-like filter effects (so you don't have to invoke a whole Thor)

More sends - mainly for headphone mixes (there are workarounds with Spiders and such, of course)

Streamline Comp editing...it's a bit thick for what should be basic operations

 

The very last thing I would ever suggest Props do is add a plugin system. Really, I can do without, just keep the effects coming.

 

Craig, I hope you can continue your review.

 

Thanks!

[Anderton]

Record 1.5 is coming out next week, with several enhancements. I'll be continuing the review then! Once I knew the new version was coming, it made sense to put this review on hold for a bit.

 

Stay tuned...

[egelmett]

Record 1.5 is coming out next week, with several enhancements. I'll be continuing the review then! Once I knew the new version was coming, it made sense to put this review on hold for a bit. Stay tuned...

 

Next week? It must be your privileged status in the music world because last I heard it's August 25th for us mortals...

 

http://www.propellerheads.se/company/crew/blog/index.cfm?fuseaction=dsp_plan&PID=1897

[Anderton]

Well I guess I just proved that not only am I a mere mortal, I don't even know how to count. I will write on the blackboard 100 times...

 

8 = August

7 = July

8 = August

7 = July

8 = August

7 = July

8 = August

7 = July

 

Nonetheless...I'll try to twist a few arms to get an advance copy

[U&I]

Looking forward to your 1.5 Record and Reason 5.0 Pro review.

 

Been using it since last week and am super impressed.

 

Octorex - allows for some incredibly tweaky rex mangling.

 

Kong - is rather superb and nurse rex opens up a plethora of possibilities IMHO - the physical modeled drums are damn great too.

 

Blocks - very well implemented and hugely useful - speeds up the compositional process 10 fold IMHO.

 

The stretching of both audio and midi clips is extremely powerful especially with snap to grid turned off - I have awakened my inner John Cage I think.

 

Neptune - been abusing the hell out of it as an effects device for pitch shifting delays and all sorts of non vocal based weirdness.

 

Good Stuff I must say

[Anderton]

I'm actually installing it now...

[egelmett]

Looking forward to your 1.5 Record and Reason 5.0 Pro review.

 

That's right, back to work with you, Anderton!! (crack whip)

 

Seriously, although I've been playing with it for a week, my uses have been limited to setting up for a live show, replacing Cubase. I've dabbled with Kong and Neptune, but not much more.

 

It will be interesting to get your (and others here) take on the new revision, and uses you see with the new features.

 

One thing I think that really differentiates Reason/Record from anything else is the multitudes of uses, and the shear incomprehensible number of tricks people can perform with this this software.

 

Looking forward to more tips and tricks as well!

[1manband]

I decided to not get Record. I simply dont want to deal with a dongle whatsoever. And I can do all of what it can do and then some via rewire and any number of hosts.

 

I am however very interested in Reason 5.

 

I have a few question about it.

 

1) the on screen piano keyboard. How well does it work and can you dive more into it? i'd love to be able to pluck out beats and basic melodies with just the laptop somewhere without anything extra.

2) Along the same lines, could I get away with just using the qwerty keyboard to mute the tracks and basically do a lot of the live performance aspect of reason.

3)Midi out? It seems from all I have found it does not have it. Neither does Record apparently. this is such a bummer and almost a deal breaker. If it doesn't have it, is there some sort of workaround (other than rewire)? It would be a very frustrating omission if it doesn't have it.

4) The sampling feature. How long is it? Could I say, record/playback the vocals, bass or guitar parts for the length of the entire song?

 

Thanks!

[1manband]

Well, I went to Guitar Center today and got the record for reason update. So I guess I'll be able to answer my own questions myself. Even though I absolutely hate dongles and even the very idea of them i figured for $20 more, I'd give record a shot. Plus I really wanted to try neptune and the line 6 stuff seemed good too.

 

Well, the stupid dongle would not install! lol. After several re-installs, I went to the proppellerheads site. No help there. I finally found the answer in the propelleheads forum.

 

Turns out that since I have disabled a lot of services on my computer (to make it a more stream lined DAW), the driver provided by propellerheads does not work. So you have to go to the dongle makers site and download their installer.

 

What a pain and it totally reaffirms my hatred of dongles. The least propelleheads can do is include the more tolerant driver or at the very least, provide much clearer instructions and point people towards this solution without as much digging as I had to do.

 

It took so long to install this and it was so frustrating...but now its time to dig in and hopefully have so fun.

[bookofflags]

The demo crashed my computer and ruined the drivers for my Presonus Firestudio Project .

[Anderton]

I decided to not get Record. I simply dont want to deal with a dongle whatsoever. And I can do all of what it can do and then some via rewire and any number of hosts.

 

The dongle thing isn't so bad, because as long as you have an internet connection, you can get authorized. Once while I was on the road I didn't have the dongle and the airport had free wi-fi, so I authorized and was good to go. I also found that if I put the computer in sleep mode, the authorization remained...made it through the whole trip with Record ready to go, didn't have to reauthorize, and didn't need the dongle.

 

I am however very interested in Reason 5. I have a few question about it. 1) the on screen piano keyboard. How well does it work and can you dive more into it? i'd love to be able to pluck out beats and basic melodies with just the laptop somewhere without anything extra.

 

Check out Post #74. The keyboard in Reason 5 is the same as in Record.

 

2) Along the same lines, could I get away with just using the qwerty keyboard to mute the tracks and basically do a lot of the live performance aspect of reason.

 

Reason works very much like Live, in that you can map just about anything to a key command although there are some "forbidden" keys - space bar, tab, enter, numeric keypad keys, and most function keys.

 

3)Midi out? It seems from all I have found it does not have it. Neither does Record apparently. this is such a bummer and almost a deal breaker. If it doesn't have it, is there some sort of workaround (other than rewire)? It would be a very frustrating omission if it doesn't have it.

 

If it's there, I haven't found it. The only workaround I can think of is that if you use a workstation, you can create parts in it and slave Reason to the workstation's sequencer.

 

4) The sampling feature. How long is it? Could I say, record/playback the vocals, bass or guitar parts for the length of the entire song?

 

I haven't found a limit yet, and I've recorded samples that are several minutes long.

[Anderton]

The demo crashed my computer and ruined the drivers for my Presonus Firestudio Project .

 

That certainly doesn't sound right...was it Record or Reason? Have you checked for updates to the PreSonus drivers? I use a lot of their gear, and the drivers seem more or less indestructible.

 

Also...how much RAM do you have, and what latency are you running? Too little RAM or really short latencies will give the appearance of the computer crashing.

[1manband]

Well, I've had Record 1.5/Reason 5 for a few days now. I really like them both. Im a long time Sonar user, but I also use Pro tools in the studio and I was a long time Cubase user.

 

 

I started out with hardware and midi. And R/R are very much like hardware. So for me, I really am enjoying how fast and creative the combo is.

 

 

Like for instance, when I want to add a bass line. Normally, I get out the tuner and plug in the bass. The I unplug it and plug into the fx. I run that into an Audio track in sonar. And then spend another few minutes setting it up tp record the bass.

 

 

But with record, the tuner is built right in and so are the fx. Im ready to go as inspiration strikes. And after years and years of wrestling with DAW software and menus and all that, it is really fun to not deal with any of that and just record again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I haven't found a limit yet, and I've recorded samples that are several minutes long.

 

 

 

I was referring to Reason. Apparently it only samples for 30 seconds??

 

 

So far, my only real quibble, is using Record on a laptop. Its just so busy graphically and there is a lot on the screen. It would be nice if the allowed you to re-size it to get more of the images on screen. But, like I said, I know propellerheads. What you get is what you get. No point in really asking for features, lol.

 

I wasn't going to, but I think I may buy one of those 42 inch flat screen TV's and use Record with it. Even Reason seems to have gotten bigger and takes up more screen real estate.

[cs0khunter82]

I just read this whole thread, super interesting!!!

 

You know, making music is about your vision, if your vision for a song doesn't need something like Reason, then great.

 

If your vision for your song needs a 'propellerhead' sound to it to make it what you envision - then again great.

 

From a technical review stand point, I think this thread was very informative. Good job!!!

 

[Anderton]

 

my laptop gives audio drop outs when I have the wifi enabled.

 

 

I wasn't clear...you don't need a continuous web connection, just long enough to authorize. That's why I was able to put the laptop in sleep mode, open it up on a plane, and keep going.

 

 

Dongles really only punish legit users. A thief can downlaod a crack and be up and running in no time. Oh well. Knowing propellerheads (been there since Reason 1.0) they won't change. I still love their products. But I will always hate dongles. You can lose them. You can forget them. They tie up a port..etc..

 

 

Agreed on all points. But at least if you lose it, forget it, and don't want to tie up a port, as long as you can go online for a few seconds you're covered.

[1manband]

 

I wasn't clear...you don't need a continuous web connection, just long enough to authorize. That's why I was able to put the laptop in sleep mode, open it up on a plane, and keep going. Agreed on all points. But at least if you lose it, forget it, and don't want to tie up a port, as long as you can go online for a few seconds you're covered.

 

 

 

 

well, I've just spent the last 40 minutes trying to log in via internet. it wont let me in. Says there is something wrong with my internet. Of course there isn't, or i couldn't be here. Apparently there server is down. Seems like its an issue searching through the forum. Ironically, the support page that the props linked to in the thread I found, gives a 404 error. What a pain this crap is. After almost an hour trying this, I give up. If I had a crack of it, I'd be on now, no fuss no muss. like I say, it only punishes the legit users.

[1manband]

ok, well, I figured out why i couldn't log on through wifi. Seems like Record needs to have the windows workstation service running. I, like most veteran DAW users, have streamlined my install and I have disabled a lot of services.

 

Propellerhead really needs to, at the very least, publish (somewhere obvious) a list of what specific services need to be running in order to use Record (on their website or better yet on their install booklet).

 

So the other problem with the internet authorization is that you can't open any songs. So I guess you can make new ones, save them, or have a song open already and then never close it. Kind of a pain.

 

Serial numbers like Reason and Sonar are so much better. And again it's not like dongles actually prevent any piracy.

 

I've avoided dongles like the plague. Last one was the Cubase printer port dongle. But I eventually started using a crack of it because I didnt have a printer port anymore and still had a lot of songs in that file format. I totally don't feel guilty about it either. If I paid for the software, why should I be made to jump through hoops to use it?

 

However, I don't think I will use one now with record. I finally got everything working and wifi access is pretty much available anywhere.

 

 

Kind of a pain, but it it what it is.

 

Other than that pain and hoop jumping, I'm really liking Record/Reason. I would go as far as saying I really love it.

[1manband]

I just wanted to give my take on Record after playing with a little deeper.

 

Despite the copy protection issues (which I've accepted as "it is what is"), it's really a brilliant program.

 

I'll list a few of the things I really like about it.

 

1) The built in tuner on each audio tack. I really love this feature. Create an audio track, and there is the little tuner icon. Simple and easy and gets you going right away.

 

2)The on screen piano keyboard. I only use it on my laptop, but it's a great feature. It lets you play beats and add melodies and work out songs right from the qwerty keyboard. All I need is my laptop and a pair of headphones.

 

3)The integration with my other hardware. I have a V-studio 100 that I was able to integrate pretty well (I haven't figured out how make the fader control the next track..but other than that, it's set up to my liking pretty well). I also have an emx1 that sends midi sync to Record. Record responds perfectly to tempo changes and start/stops. Both those pieces of hardware have now become an extension of record. I hardly need to touch the mouse. Very nice.

 

4)Blocks. This is an awesome feature. Seems simple and obvious. And it is. Which is what makes it so great.

 

5)Low latency. I am able to monitor and record with the Record/Reason effects with no perceptible delay or latency at all. With the same buffer settings in Sonar 8.5, the delay is so much it's unusable. Its the same buffer settings on the same sound card, so it should be the same. But somehow Record has less latency.

 

And there are more things that I haven't even begun to scratch the surface on. Like Neptune. And side chain compression.

 

But this program is so easy and inviting. I've hardly read the manual (though I am a long time Reason user so I'm sure that helps).

 

It is going to replace my main DAW for me. Of course, there are things that I will want from my other DAW (like VST plug ins and deeper editing of audio tracks). But at that point I can just rewire Record into it an finish up my production.

 

I am really loving this program and having a real blast with it. It's so liberating and easy to use.

 

Craig, is it possible (when you find time!..I know you are a very bz man ) for you to get really deep with neptune?

[1manband]

I'm trying to use my V Station 100 with Record 1.5 and Reason 5. I've got it pretty much working to my liking except for one issue. I can't get the fader to control more than one mixer volume channel at a time (whichever I assign).

 

I want to be able to push a button and have the fader control the next channel on the mixer. Then push another button to go back and move around in this way so I can control the mixer volume fader with my V station fader.

 

I've got the V-Studio set up as mackie a mackie universal controller (which is how you are supposed to set it up).

 

But it's not working.

 

I went into the advanced edit override section and assigned what seemed like the parameters to assign for this, but it did not work.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jedanor]

I haven't been able to map my faders successfully yet on my 01x but was super surprised that it was mapping to the 01x at all. I love Record although I'm only on V1 of it. It's simple yet powerful. Maybe not a full fledged DAW but for my needs, it rocks.

 

Jed